Forum menu
No need to reword the amendment. It calls for a 'well regulated militia' having the right to bear arms. Which strongly suggests the need for some kind of oversight and control over those who want to own weapons. I don't believe the Supreme Court has ever chucked out reasonable gun control measures as unconstitutional.
So it is simply a case of politicians voting to introduce automatic weapon bans, make other guns harder to buy, increase background checks etc. But there is simply not enough popular support, or the political will to make unpopular decisions. You would hope that Sandy Hook would be a turning point, but if even the massacre of primary school children is not enough, I fear nothing will be.
Spokeswoman for the gun group (whatever it's called) on the BBC this morning was embarrassing. If those people have any sense of embarrassment that is. The interviewer appeared to cut the interview short as she was so damn stupid - even corrected him when he said "automatic weapon" - "it was a sem-eye automatic" like that matters. Arm the teachers was her solution ffs.
[edit]just remembered another thing she said - "everyone talks about the guns, but no-one talks about who's behind the shooting"! Unbelievable ignorance.
I think, as a minimum, there needs to be a ban on the sale AND ownership of automatic and semi-automatic weapons, followed by a nationwide amnesty to give people a chance to hand them over.
Good piece by Mark Steel in The I.
Ok its a comical take on the situation, but the argument being that as it’s quite easy to own a gun in the US, then we can all have guns to protect ourselves. If somone did this with a legally owned tank, they would ban tank ownership, as it’s beyond the ability of most people to by a tank to protect themselves from other tanks.
No need to reword the amendment. It calls for a ‘well regulated militia’ having the right to bear arms
That's what I've argued in the past but apparently I'm just a Brit who doesn't know much. The actual meaning has been debated for a very long time.
Jeez:
This week in Montgomery County, Maryland.......
https://twitter.com/ABC7Kevin/status/966017884047773698
Why are we so bothered though, why are we more bothered by mass shootings in the USA (murder rate 4.88/100,000 people, 15696 murders) compared to the narco and other deaths in Mexico (16.35/100,000, 20762 murders).
Because bringing the War on Drugs into this thread will open a different can of worms?
Both are bad.
Paraphrase from another friend's comment, who in turn may have picked up elsewhere:
Why don't we just ban guns, and then send 'thoughts and prayers' to all those affected.
If T&P are comfort enough for those that have lost sons, daughters, parents, partners and friends, then SURELY they're good enough for those upset by the loss of their firearms.
compared to the narco and other deaths in Mexico
Well there is a connection in that in both cases the firearms used are often purchased legally in the states. So whilst there are other sources having a functioning firearms control system in the USA would make it harder to acquire weapons in Mexico.
Florida house of representatives voted yesterday to reject a motion to consider a bill that would ban assault rifles and immediately followed that by passing a resolution declaring pornography a public health risk.
Tell you what though, these kids are amazing. While the usual suspects say "now is not the time" the survivors are saying **** you, we decide when it's the time. Just kind of in awe of it, especially as they become the focus of the alt-right's mania about "crisis actors" and the like. They're going straight from the line of one sort of fire to the next.
martinhutch Subscriber
No need to reword the amendment. It calls for a ‘well regulated militia’ having the right to bear arms.
slowoldman Subscriber
That’s what I’ve argued in the past but apparently I’m just a Brit who doesn’t know much. The actual meaning has been debated for a very long time.
There's a comma, whose presence makes the intended meaning semantically debatable. Gun advocates have used that comma to argue that the milita bit isn't relevant when it comes to determining who should be able to bear arms.
For example: [url] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-comma-in-the-second-amendment-2013-8?IR=T [/url]
Let them crack on, i dont give a shit if they want to shoot their kids - it's democracy just like Brexit.
I am not going back to the US and have advised my kids not to visit the shit hole, at best its third world with shiny stuff and neon.
Land of the free... my arse
Why stop at arming just the teachers? Arm the children as well. After all, more guns - safer schools, right?
Just ban schools. Sorted.
Children will need to be armed in case one of those commie pinko liberal teachers give in to their evil base urges and shoots up their kids for talking back in class.
Stephen Willeford grabbed his AR-15-style rifle after hearing the gunfire and went over to investigate. Confronting the shooter, Devin Kelley, Willeford shot him in the leg and torso before Kelley dropped his weapon and fled the scene in his SUV.
Looks like irrefutable proof that armed citizens can save the lives of others when a lunatic goes postal with a gun.
Of course, if the lunatic can't get a gun, there's no need for armed citizens, is there?
Or ban SUVs so the shooter wouldn't have been able to drive off. (I am starting to get the logic used now)
Of course, if the lunatic can’t get a gun, there’s no need for armed citizens, is there?
True. Maybe they should ban them, after all, it seems to have worked with drugs, because nobody ever manages to ship them over the border from Mexico and sell them to kids.
The ban on handguns in the uk seemed to work pretty well in stopping mass shootings and it's still pretty hard to get a gun and even harder to get ammo and it's not as if we've won the war on drugs is it
We had a baseline of restriction since ww1 though. We knew everyone who owned a legal handgun (and still ww2 ones are cropping up)
the baseline of introducing a ban in the states tomorrow is 300m firearms with no list of who owns what (plus all the ones that Obama admin. knowingly let drug cartels ship to Mexico)
add to that the fact that we have a channel in the way..., perhaps you’re suggesting that some form of physical barrier between the US and Mexico would help?
Ah! I see Trump's sycophant has arrived to offer his NRA-sponsored take on all this.
Ban semi and fully automatics now. The rest can follow later. That's all.
Sorry forgot it was all Obamas fault. As stated we banned guns and it worked obviously doing nothing because it's a bit tricky is by far the more sensible solution. Iirc most of the nut job, gun freak weirdos seem to use legally held firearms in the US, (as in the UK, the old addage anyone who wants to own a gun really shouldn't be allowed one is so true) shouldn't be too difficult to go round collecting the rest of them up. The us border is, even without trumpy's wall, significantly harder to breach than the channel has ever been.
The us border is, even without trumpy’s wall, significantly harder to breach than the channel has ever been.
Lolz
We had a baseline of restriction since ww1 though. We knew everyone who owned a legal handgun (and still ww2 ones are cropping up)
the baseline of introducing a ban in the states tomorrow is 300m firearms with no list of who owns what (plus all the ones that Obama admin. knowingly let drug cartels ship to Mexico)
add to that the fact that we have a channel in the way…, perhaps you’re suggesting that some form of physical barrier between the US and Mexico would help?
No sensible person thinks that passing gun control laws will instantly make things better in the US and that things like this will immediately stop, that's a straw man argument (dammit!) that is put up by people who want to retain the status quo. What such controls would do would make it progressively harder over time to obtain guns, and ammunition and ultimately make these things less common. Gun control won't be a perfect solution and shouldn't even be the only thing that is done (increased spending on mental health would help too but there we run into a healthcare argument!) but it will help.
"The perfect is the enemy of the good"
Nope still can't get the quote thing to work!
"Why are we so bothered though, why are we more bothered by mass shootings in the USA (murder rate 4.88/100,000 people, 15696 murders) compared to the narco and other deaths in Mexico (16.35/100,000, 20762 murders)."
Because the US holds themselves up as some shining beacon of how the world should be and export their brand of democracy and values abroad, often by force, so therefore hold themselves up for scrutiny and being held to account by others. The US loves to criticise others, but when criticism is turned onto them they get all defensive and offended by it. And also it is a tad frustrating for others who see a huge problem in US society which we know the solution and answer for but the US politicians and vast swathes of the public don't seem to want to listen. But it's not our kids and people being slaughtered in their tens every day, week in, week out, but what do we know hey?
and still ww2 ones are cropping up
LOLz.
America is headed toward civil war at this rate.
No sensible person thinks that passing gun control laws will instantly make things better in the US and that things like this will immediately stop, that’s a straw man argument (dammit!)
i could say exactly the same thing about encouraging CCW or arming teachers. Nobody is suggesting it as a panacea, they are suggesting that it’s better than the status quo
Yes because a teacher with a concealed handgun who is taken by surprise whilst teaching by a prepared and gee'ed up shooter with no expectations of a positive outcome armed with semi auto rifles or full on autos will prevent deaths. How well did the overtly armed security guard do at Florida?
i could say exactly the same thing about encouraging CCW or arming teachers.
REALLY. You think MORE GUNS in a PLACE OF LEARNING is a good idea when it is clear to EVERYONE that more guns mean more gun deaths, just like more knives means more stabbings! Prevention is a wayyyyy better solution that a cure.
compulsory body armor for all children!
Only saw a tiny bit of the "debate" with Trump on the news this morning - were there any teachers there? Surely a teacher would've said to him "I'm not carrying a gun in school!".
When someone shoots this president in the back of the head, will his dying thought be, I should've had a gun on me?
Given the fact that police struggle to hit their targets (unless they are unarmed) and the analysis of many shoot outs show nobody hits anything how would arming teachers help? It's only the bat shit crazy gun nuts suggesting it. In no way is it an improvement, simple because if your planning this sort of thing (and these guys did that) you now have to add in a bit more to overcome the teachers too.
Next you then need to train the teachers and find any who want to add security guard to their job description. If only there was a better way to stop kids getting hold of guns....
It’s only the bat shit crazy gun nuts suggesting it. In no way is it an improvement, simple because if your planning this sort of thing (and these guys did that) you now have to add in a bit more to overcome the teachers too.
S’funny, because when people plan these things they always seem to choose to attack somewhere in a no-gun zone.
Edit:
“Every single mass shooting that's occurred in the state of Florida has been in a gun-free zone. Pulse nightclub, gun-free zone, and it took law enforcement 3 1/2 hours to get into the Pulse nightclub, 3 1/2 hours while our citizens [hid] behind urinals and bathrooms and [lied] on the floor waiting for medical treatment because law enforcement didn't go into the building, and that was a gun-free zone. Florida State University, Fort Lauderdale airport and now Parkland. It's not a coincidence. If you look at some of these people that commit these heinous acts, and you read some of the things that they've written about their plans — like 'The Dark Knight' shooter out in Colorado, if you read his journal, he did a lot of research on what movie theaters he wanted to attack. There were eight movie theaters within a 4-mile radius of his home. There was one movie theater that didn't allow patrons to carry concealed firearms, and that's the one movie theater that he attacked. So there's a ton of evidence to show that this is where people like this want to go. They create mass chaos, and they're going to try to do it in a place where they know law-abiding citizens aren't carrying."
Florida state senator
Arming teachers is just bat shit mental...
NYPD stats show trained police only hit their target 18% of the time in a firefight
If only there was a simpler way ninfan....
Wood/Trees and all that
You've got me ninfan. How is this...
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">S’funny, because when people plan these things they always seem to choose to attack somewhere in a no-gun zone.</span>
A reply to [i]this[/i]???
It’s only the bat shit crazy gun nuts suggesting it. In no way is it an improvement, simple because if your planning this sort of thing (and these guys did that) you now have to add in a bit more to overcome the teachers too.
Oh, having another read, what you're saying is, if these places weren't gun-free zones, they wouldn't have been attacked... ahhh. Jeez.
If only there was a simpler way ninfan….
300m unregistered guns in circulation. What’s your plan to put that Genie back in the bottle?
as Gonefishing says
No sensible person thinks that passing gun control laws will instantly make things better in the US and that things like this will immediately stop
So your argument about “a simpler way” is just facile, as in a best case scenario it doesn’t change anything for decades, what’s your plan in the meantime, until the 300m guns out there are no longer in circulation, just sit back and relax, saying “ah, we’ve banned guns, job done, hopefully they’ll start running out of bullets soon”
[i]ninfan wrote:[/i]
i could say exactly the same thing about encouraging CCW or arming teachers. Nobody is suggesting it as a panacea, they are suggesting that it’s better than the status quo
Just for clarity here ninfan, can I check - are you in support of the NRA stance on gun laws (ie that the only way to improve things is more guns) or are you just on your usual trollathon?
" it doesn’t change anything for decades" well at least it's changing the underlying cause. So how did the overtly armed security guard, employed to stop shooters do on Florida then?
No I think ninfan loves his guns
Like any of the NRA types they really struggle to see a solution with less guns, logic escapes the room in these arguments.
"If" there are 300million unregistered guns out there it's only one each so much better than the registered arsenals out there.
Still not sure how anyone could defend a kid having access to this level of weaponry though, given alcohol is banned until your 21 there.