It is a vexing problem and one that is only going to be on the increase as someone mentioned above.
Both my parents are gone, but my MiL is 85 and living in an assisted care place, but 1500 miles away. She can't travel so mrs busydog makes a trip back about every 6 months for a week or so visit. My SiL lives in the same small town so she bears the brunt of care on an ongoing basis, i.e. taking her to the store, doctors appointments, etc. We talked about bringing her here to live with us, but she can't as our altitude is just too much for her medical condition.
It also makes us worry about becoming a burden to our 2 sons.
Get the house signed over early on. Because when they need to be in a home the cost will be over a grand a week. If they have assets they will be taken. This will be one of the hardest conversations you will ever have. It could save you a few hundred thousand pounds.
Are you telling me its as simple as signing the house over to me and then care home feed are then paid?
It used to be, perhaps. Not any more. "deprivation of assets" is the term to google. Also, see "potentially exempt transfer" for IHT purposes. It probably won't work at all if the parents are not paying a fair market rent to stay in the house.
[i]It used to be, perhaps. Not any more. "deprivation of assets" is the term to google. Also, see "potentially exempt transfer" for IHT purposes. It probably won't work at all if the parents are not paying a fair market rent to stay in the house.[/i]
Take advice, decent legal advice.
And while you are at it sort out wills (theirs and yours) and PofA.
I had a phone call Saturday morning from my sister inlaw saying that she had spoke to her dad on the phone and he was slurring. She thought he had had a stroke. I advised her to phone 111, she said could I do it as they were going to collect their caravan from storage.
Nice to know her priorities and who will be looking after the oldies.
^
That's cold man.
My dad's only 67, but I honestly think he's suffering from some kind of mental illness and I'm not sure he realises, and I've no idea what to do about it.
He's always been a bit "up and down", maybe bipolar?? Extreme mood swings on a daily basis.
But recently he's getting worse. He lost his job about 15 years ago and never really recovered. He's getting more and more isolated. Me and my brother used to soeak to him once a week on the phone and i'd get boring emails about he stockmarket, but now he rarely answers the phone and I rarely get emails. Sometimes my mum answers and puts him on, but sometimes he talks for ages, other times he just mumbles and literally drops the phone and walks off whilst i'm mid-sentence.
If we try and have family meet ups that require him to leave his house and travel some distance, we get long winded excuses about traffic jams, accidents, state of the railways, immigrants, possible storms, literally anything he's read in the Daily mail recently. Now he's also started refusing visits as well, with yet more excuses....
No idea how to resolve it all. I feel sorry for my mum, who is much more sociable, but has no driving licence so used to rely on my dad for transport (He also refuses to drive now, blaming his old car. Think he last drove 3-4 years ago)
That sounds a lot like what is happening to my MiL. Her short term memory is shot. She cannot recal conversations from a few hours ago. She last drove 2 years ago and she has not driven on a motorway in over a decade. She will not seek any help, and it feels like we're powerless to do anything about it.
It's horrible to think that there maybe medicine or treatment that can help, but she has no access to it because she is not a danger to anyone other than herself.
Mine are early/mid 70's
Both ok, although my Mum has just been through cancer, which appears to have left her with quite a few less brain cells.
They are both being very reasonable, PoA was done some years ago, and they are currently looking at moving from a 4 bed detached to a 'retirement' home. Last weekend their boiler didn't work, and they actually rang me and asked me to go and check it. I was glad that they did, but it is also sad at the same time because it is the start of that slippery slope.
Although no one would wish that parents live shorter lives, wasn't it better when people died in their 60's/70's at the first major illness, instead of the now medically prolonged slow death that most people end up going through?
[i]Although no one would wish that parents live shorter lives, wasn't it better when people died in their 60's/70's at the first major illness, instead of the now medically prolonged slow death that most people end up going through? [/i]
Eh? Why not 40's/50's then and that'd free up a load of jobs and houses for the young... 🙄
Based on my grandparents who are healthy, but miserable in general and some other old folk I've known with terminal illnesses your outlook on life seems to be the most important thing.
You can be healthy, but miserable. You can be terminal, but happy.
Right in at the deep end with this at the moment and only child - Dad is 83 nearly blind (macular degeneration) but mentally ok, he needs someone to visit/stock up fridge/tidy up etc about every three days(which i can do as i am only 5 miles away)- to be honest other than feed me and put a roof over my head until i was 16 he (and my deceased Mum) never really did anything and mainly complained each time i changed job/got married/ went to uni/had kids/bought derelict house/started business etc and while i did all this they had three holidays a year. I have just got my last kid into Uni in sept so the light at the end of the tunnel was very close and now someone has put it out!
He did very little for his Mum when she got older or any other relatives for that matter, its difficult not to be bitter as my health is probably worse than his and he will not accept any external care visits and thinks if i go into hospital for a heart operation all i need to do is sign a few cheques in case a bill needs paying - frankly i am fed up beyond belief thank god for booze!its a nightmare
What worries me is the constant stream of people trying to fleece or outright steal from my family's collective grandparents (aged in 80s and 90s).
Few months back, some jokers showed up and offer to trim back some hedges for £250 (ludicrous price, should have been £100 absolute tops, more like £50). Then afterwards surprise surprise, they tell the old folks it's actually going to be £750.
Here's the annoying part: my MIL, my wife and I, my wife's cousins, my uncle-in-law were all within easy travel distance, some under a mile away, yet without calling any of us, they just go and hand over the cash straight away (and why have that much cash easily available in the house?!?! Oh yes they "don't trust" banks).
They didn't get any paperwork or even know the name of the company. Only that it was, and I quote: "two youngish men in a green van".
Surprise, surprise, they also got robbed a little while later (same ****s no doubt) and lost all of their jewelry. Luckily I think someone in the family had ensured the cash had been put in the bank at that point.
It's no longer straight forward having the house signed over to you. I think it used to be a 7 year period of ownership before it took effect. Luckily my mum did it about 10 years ago. Still recently cost £1000 a week for her for best end of life care home we could find. Would have happily sold everything I own to pay for it though if I'd had to.
It's heartening to know we are not the only ones....
Yesterday we drove my MIL aged 83 back to her home town and installed her in a care home. She'd been staying in our front room for 6 months while receiving chemo and recovering after we discovered that her son (my BIL) seemed to be allowing her to die quietly. That he and my wife have jointly owned the house for the last 10 years and he was anxious to get his mortgage paid off may be entirely coincidental but the house is now sold and the miserable cheapskate barsteward has refused to contribute a penny to the care home top-up costs. Having a deaf, incontinent elderly woman living in our house has not been easy but we've been amazed at the amount and quality of help that's available if you know which levers to pull. We can now get rid of the smell and replace the carpet and get back to a normal life with maybe a holiday as well.
By contrast my own mum is 86 and as fit as a butcher's dog; she walks miles every week leading Ramblers' groups, goes to a gym, sings in three choirs and is a guide at a museum. She is never in as she's always out being wined and dined by randy old retired chaps. She has her share of hangups, many related to her formerly strong Catholic upbringing, but is on the whole self-sufficient. We did have an episode recently where she sprained her knee and took double the recommended dose of some herbal remedy called Devil's Claw and ended up in hospital with atrial fibrillation but I thank God that I have her genes and not those of my MIL.
Im already a miserable old sod at the age of 35 i dread to think what i will be like if i hit 70.
My grandparents are at two extremes of the scale.
My mum's dad lives alone, and he only leaves the house on christmas day, for doctors appointments or funerals. Carer comes in twice a day to get him into/out of bed, my sister (who lives close) does his shopping. Utterly miserable and although there's nothing medically wrong with him (just general old age) he's constantly complaining about how he feels.
My dad's mum is a couple of years older (turns 90 this year) and is constantly out and about doing stuff. Dealt with breast cancer twenty years or so ago, and is now mentally and physically in decent shape. My uncle lives with her and she's out seeing people more often than he is. Still travels abroad fairly regularly too (two of her three sons have emigrated).
Where things actually get more tricky is my dad. My mum died last year, and they live abroad. It's quite hard for me and my sister to keep an eye on him because he's so far away and although he seems to be dealing with things OK he's not the most communicative so it's hard to tell sometimes. Healthwise he's fine other than a bad back (early 60s) but I worry about him financially. He sold up in the UK to buy a business and although it provides him with enough of an income to live on, I'm not sure whether the proceeds of selling it (which he's looking to do) will be enough for him to live on in retirement.
It then gets a bit sensitive because mum and dad's retirement plan had apparently been to live in her dad's house once he dies, meaning the funds he does have would go further. That was always dependent on him not having to sell it to fund care, but is rather trickier now as it comes straight to me and my sister, cutting him out of the loop. I'm not saying we wouldn't let him live there, but our first instinct had been that we would sell it to clear off our own mortgages.
Dad was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers 20 years ago. He's now 82, physically strong as an Ox, but in full time care, he'll probably go on and on. Mum is 74, fiercely independent to the point of not asking for help with anything and getting into costly jams that could have been avoided with a bit of advice.
She's still riding horses and falling off regularly, and can't figure out why she doesn't bounce anymore. Her latest scheme is to move from the lovely house she renovated and moved into 10 years ago. I'm desperately trying to persuade her not to.
She never calls me, but is the first to moan that she never hears from me if I don't ring her for a week or two.
In same place as many above, lost my mam last year dad now going in a home costing 3k a month, but what amazes me most is the amount of people who think they should not pay for the care when the money is there, like signing houses over and such..why..why .. why should you not pay for a service...do you ask builders to build ya house for free or ask a mechanic to service ya car for free..no..
my dads savings/pension will pay, then when thats gone his house money will pay, when its all gone i will pay if i can and as marin above i will sell what i have to pay..after that you then ask for help from the state....not the other way round...
sorry but it annoys me
different if you have nowt, thats what the state is for, the people who have nowt and there many and its not always their fault..
stop thinking about your inheritance loss and payup..
no idea how folk think like that when its your parents..
FiL was a great sport; we would see him at least once most weeks, visits to his for tea or he would come to us, enjoying our rural base as a contrast to his city flat.
He was active up to the end at 84, out on his bike the day before he died last August. That day he walked into the town to get his messages; he'd walked up the stairs, put his bag on the kitchen table and just lay down on the kitchen floor quite peacefully.
Three days before we had organised a family day in the garden at home, all the grandkids, his three kids and partners; food, wine, games in the sun. Lots of chat, opinions, politics, sport, disagreements and all. He'd honestly looked reflective; you would almost think he knew what was coming and made the very best of that day.
My folks are both mid-70s and while active, have become awful decision makers, always needing support on the simplest of choices. Trouble is, they live in SW Ireland while we're in Angus, so not exactly handy. Have already taken the sensible advice on PoA, that's in place.
Some of the talk here about moving assets to avoid 'losing out' on care costs seems a bit off to me; if family members need the extra care, over and above medical care, then what's wrong with using family assets to finance this in as good a way as possible? If you're paying for a service, you control it a lot better than when you are not paying. At the end of the day, it's just money and I'm not counting on getting anything from their estate, that isn't how I live.
My Mum was on Skype to me only yesterday saying she was going to be sorting out Power of Attourney and could I make sure I signed the forms and got them back to her.
I guess she wants to cover it off due to her parents who both suffered from Alzheimer's and it taking her forever to sort out PoA once her father started to deteriorate.
Not looking forward to it, I saw the state that my grandfather was in and like a couple of other stories on here, he was stubborn to a fault and it turned out, was being fleeced blind by all the utilities companies who he'd stubbornly stuck with because he was loyal. He tried desperately to maintain his independence to the point where he'd be pranging his car every couple of weeks as he simply "had" to drive himself to church or the shops...
A good piece of advice I've been given is that all members of a family should set up PoA over each other while they are all still healthy, so as to avoid the stress of doing it if a life-changing event happens.
Yes to PoA again. My Dad had to sort out his dementia-suffering step-father (genetic sons existed but were a bit impractical and useless, I think) and he says it was a difficult process once the step-Dad really needed help, as he could no longer authorise it. His mother (my grandmother) went the same way some years later but he had managed to sort out PoA that time, still a difficult time emotionally but at least not a legalistic problem too. Now Dad's going the same way but has had the forethought and consideration to sort his affairs out in advance, which I am very grateful for. Father in law however is an invincible "won't happen to me" type (even though it happened to his father!) so we can only cross our fingers and hope things turn out ok.
With no children, my plan when my time comes is to cut the brake hoses and ride a big descent somewhere...
[i]With no children, my plan when my time comes is to cut the brake hoses and ride a big descent somewhere... [/i]
When my eldest and I were clearing out my folks accumulated junk (3 large outbuildings) a few years ago my son who'd been all jokey suddenly went quite quiet. I asked him what was wrong?
He said "I've just realised that in 30 years time I'll probably be back here clearing out all your junk!"
Rather eye opening to realise that with the new retirement age rules, many of the infirm people being referred to would be expected to still be working.
I've been slowly, and single-handedly, clearing out my folks' house. Its been quite tough - physically (hard to access attic), emotionally (so much stuff I didn't know they had, or still had) and mentally (decisions as to what to junk, what to recycle and what to keep - for what).
several things have conspired against me -
1/ older folks propensity for hoarding things (and collecting knick-knacks)
2/ dad took early retirement, and had plenty interests, so plenty of scope for acquiring stuff
3/ they didn't move in 40 years
4/ had a decent sized house
5/ good standard of living so could afford the holidays and purchases..
Some of the talk here about moving assets to avoid 'losing out' on care costs seems a bit off to me; if family members need the extra care, over and above medical care, then what's wrong with using family assets to finance this in as good a way as possible? If you're paying for a service, you control it a lot better than when you are not paying
^^ this
What's the point of accumulating wealth for later life if you don't then use it to support your care when you can't look after yourself?
Basically, if you fund your own care, it means taxpayers' money can be left to provide care for those who can't afford to do so themselves.
If you transfer assets to give the taxman the impression you have none, when in fact you do and expecting the taxpayer to then pay for your care, well, in a time when we're very very short of government cash that seems pretty damn tight to me.
I'm not sure it's that different to all this offshore stuff that's going on - moving money around to give the impression you have less than you really do so you can pay lower taxes/lower care costs...
A good piece of advice I've been given is that all members of a family should set up PoA over each other while they are all still healthy, so as to avoid the stress of doing it if a life-changing event happens.
Yes definitely do this but in addition I recommend a joint bank account with your aging relative. Even with a PoA it can be difficult accessing their bank account especially after they have died and there are funeral costs etc. If you are on a joint account with them then the account continues in your name. I had a joint account with my dad and it did make financial matters go much more smoothly at the end.
Top tip after clearing my grandparents house - go through [u]everyting[/u] to make sure that they haven't hidden any cash or jewellery. Books, under drawers, false fronts under kitchen cupboards..... 🙄
Problem with care costs is that (a) many think they should reasonably be covered under either social security welfare and/or NHS as a result of having paid taxes all their lives and (b) people are basically selected for bankruptcy at random depending on whether they get alzheimers or not. I liked the idea that was floated some time ago about a sort of insurance bond where for a fairly hefty payment, you would have the care costs capped at some non-ruinous level. Not sure if that is still on the table somewhere...
Had a debate with my mum about this the other day - her view is exactly (a) above, that the social security bargain people her age feel they entered into was that the NI and tax contributions they paid all their working lives were paid in part to fund state-provided care in later life, should they need it. As far as she's concerned, successive governments have repeatedly moved the goalposts.
I don't think I agree with her, but I suspect my view of exactly what the welfare state is there to provide for is probably very different from what her view was at my age.
Not sure who's more right.
We have just settled my MIL in a care home after she has stayed with us for 6 months while receiving chemo. When she arrived we were completely ignorant of all the care that is available from the NHS and Social Services. What we hadn't appreciated is that caring for an elderly, sick, incontinent relative is almost a full-time job and requires a massive amount of energy, determination and resourcefulness to get everything working right. Mrs Gti's personal projects have been on hold for 6 months as she just hasn't had the energy to tackle them. Anything you can do at an early stage to make this process easier is definitely worth doing.
no idea how folk think like that when its your parents.
I was thinking of the MIL!!
I deal with this every day, care is a huge issue and is only going to get worse. As soon as you get any indication that they are going to need help seek some advice (professional not the man in the pub type).
Lasting Powers of Attorney are a must, and always do both. Saving a few quid by just doing the financial one is no good when the Local Authority won't talk to you about a care plan.
If anyone in your family is living with dementia it is really worth while attending a dementia friends information session.
Info on both http://www.lastingpowerofattorney.info/
https://www.dementiafriends.org.uk/
[i]As far as she's concerned, successive governments have repeatedly moved the goalposts. [/i]
A better statement would be 'the goalposts have moved'.
Do remind her that when these promises were made (+50 years ago etc) folk weren't living to an average of +80 y/o like they are now.
Power of Attorney is a good idea.
i eventually had to do it for my parents. it was agreed with the rest of my family that seeing as i would be the main carer that full control of my parents affairs should go to me.
with my in laws..its a bit trickier. i have suggested it to them but as 2 of my wifes sisters are seen as the "main carers" they would need to decide amongst them on how best to to it...and then get their stubborn parents to agree to it.
reading some of the stories here....its tough and can be heartbreaking to hear what other people are going through and more importantly what their elderly parents are going through.
looking back at my own time with my parents...last time i spoke to my dad and had a coherent conversation with him was in August 1999. we were all on holiday in Bangladesh and he decided to stay for a few more months. he bid me farewell at the airport and told me to behave and look after my mum...2 months later he suffered a massive stroke that left him paralysed down the right side of his body and unable to speak....mum had to go back with my brother to bring him back...after that point i took over full time as the main carer while i was still studying at university.
my mum tried to help but the effect of my dads condition had had a massive effect on her and her health took a massive nosedive too. the in fighting in my family between my brothers and sisters had also took their toll on the both of them.
watching and caring for my dad in the final 5 years of his life, i saw that he had become an empty shell of the man he once was. i think he found it harder than i did to come to terms with his youngest son having to bath, change and help feed him. toilet time were the worst...i could see the sadness in his eyes at times when i would give him his weekly shave.
in the end there was nothing more i could do for him and we took that tough decision to have him placed in a care home where he could get round the clock care and supervision...he lasted 6 weeks there before he fell ill after his kidneys packed in...exactly 7 days after my 26th birthday he passed away on valentines day.
his death had an even greater effect on my mum...she suffered a stroke 1 year later then another the following year. she could still speak but her movements were restricted. by then my little sister had moved in with us so she could help with the jobs that i couldnt do such as the bath and toilet duties. everything else was still my job. but i could see the effect the loss of my dad had on her....it was like she had lost the will to live. i could see the depression in her but she wouldnt talk about it and my family didnt want to hear of it.
when i finally got married in 2006 she seemed really happy and i thought i had my mum back, we all did. but then while i was on our belated honeymoon she fell ill...we had to get an emergency flight back to check on her as i knew something wasnt right.
straight off the plane i headed to the hospital...wife was 6 weeks pregnant and suffering badly from morning sickness so i sent her home. when i got to the hospital, mum was surprised to see me. her words were "what you doing back?" and "where's your wife?"...i told her i came back to see how she was and she told me off for cutting my honey moon short because of her. i told her my wife wasnt feeling too well so it was a good thing we came back...i wanted to tell her the good news but i thought "we'll both tell her in the morning"
she then told me to go home and get some rest as i'd been on a long flight and to come see here i the morning...i didnt want to go but she made me go...i think she sussed that the missus was pregnant and needed me
it was a 30 minute drive home from the hospital...just as we got in the house the hospital phoned us and told us to come back as she had taken a turn for the worst. by the time we got back she had passed away peacefully...exactly 7 days before my 30th
sorry if this was a bit long winded....some of it was relevant (i hope), nut i just wanted to offload and share my experiences of dealing with my parents.
my wife has all this yet to come...i'm dreading that moment as i know it will bring up my memories, and she'll be looking to me for answers because i've been there...
