Flamers to the Forum,
I have a 2015 Berlingo which has had endless ad blue problems. I've spent about £1000 a year on the adblue system over the last 3 years and the dreaded light has just come back on.
Local garage has suggested an "ad blue" delete removing it from the system completely via software. What do the great and the good of STW think of this from a mechanical/MOT point of view?
Joe
MOT is a failure if caught.
Why are you spending that much? Is that garages playing parts darts?
I assume they have changed the tank for the one with the vented cap? That caused issues which we experienced on ours, pressurising the tank and affecting the pump seals. Citroen contributed to the cost of replacement after a moan from me. Not sure what age they changed the cap so may be nothing to do with that…
Get a better garage?
Is there anything that will show up on the MOT that wil show it's had the delete ? e.g. warning light goes on then off ? Seems very common getting them deleted though due to failures costing a fortune. Over £1k for a mate's Audi and he's still getting an engine light issue that he can't solve due to it - car running not affected at all.
I'm a little disappointed that a garage is willing to recommend performing a modification that makes the vehicle illegal to use on public roads.
Get a better garage?
That was my thought as well.
Most expensive part of the system is the catalyst, followed by the tank assembly, the NOx sensor, then the injector.
I've never seen a catalyst fail, and if the tank is failing that often, then there is something really amiss. For 1k a year, you'd get a couple NOx sensors fully fitted at a dealer, let alone a local garage.
car running not affected at all.
Except for all the toxic pollution...
How many garages have you been to? Sounds like you need to ring a few specialists and talk to them. The ones that say 'these cars have x or y problem and we can fix it this or that way' are better than the ones that say 'bring it in, we'll take a look'.
You asked about this from a mechanical/MOT point of view.
There are other points of view that may need some consideration.
@molegrips, I said a mate, not me... Petrol only here at present. 22 years on my car.
There is an issue with failure on the Pug/Citroen/Toyota engines with add blue, it also affects the bigger newer van's, not just the "lingos".
Surely it will fail the engine emissions test on an MOT as the AdBlue is there to reduce the NOx. No Adblue, not NOx reduction in the exhaust gasses, no ?
Diesel MOT only tests for smoke opacity, so on something with a DPF, as long as there is no visible smoke, then it should pass.
It is something I think that should be clamped down on, but the motor trade will fight any attempt at making MOT test centres purchase more equipment.
Mines one month earlier than the adblue addition - also a 2015. Downside I can't go into the city center. Upside - I can't go into the city centre. Cars don't belong there anyway
Just treat it as euro5 post delete 😉
But the real answer is strip it down to components then trade it in in a hurry
There are multiple aspects of the ad blue system - I've had the injector changed originally (about £700 I think it was?), then had a new tank fitted (was about £1000) and also had the Nox sensor changed. So I'm lying - I've spent £2000 ish on this issue so far, but due another £1000 bill now as the pump has gone on the tank again.
There's not much that can be done about it - ad blue is sticky corrosive shit. The Berlingo's ad blue system is incredibly poorly designed and many owners find that they have constant issues with it. Nothing to do with the garage.
Just treat it as euro5 post delete 😉
As I understand it, vehicles with SCR have reduced EGR compared to their EGR-only euro 5 equivalents, so by disabling AdBlue, it will be more polluting than euro 5.
Many of the AdBlue delete services will also disable EGR at the same time.
Have you asked on the Berlingo forum? I'm on there as i run an older '04 Pug Partner and it's always useful/informative
Whilst it may not be picked up on this year's mot the test is being constantly updated so it wouldn't surprise me if something to catch coded out systems is added in future. Also the nox sensor would need changing regardless of adblue
There’s not much that can be done about it – ad blue is sticky corrosive shit. The Berlingo’s ad blue system is incredibly poorly designed and many owners find that they have constant issues with it. Nothing to do with the garage.
To be fair that doesn't sound like much of an improvement on the old eolys system but at least you can top it up and it's not highly toxic and carcinogenic. So there's that.
@nickfrog - this is WoodburnerTrackWorld, nobody gives a shit about the public health downsides.
😂
It's also singletrack****panzer owner world too.
I believe that system Eolys is also present but needs changing less frequently , I only know this because whrn ours crapped out in both citroens at 11 and 20k we discovered the amazing world of crap french design
@joe I deleted mine a year ago on a Renault Trafic, that I’d already spent 2k replacing all the components to no joy, doing the ‘right’ thing.
Renault UK and Renault France were at a loss. With an upcoming MoT, the only choice was to delete it or write the van off. I’m not rich enough to throw a van in the bin!
Deletion was fine, about £250. Sailed thru MoT, even after asking about it…it’s not a test item. Hasn’t missed a beat since.
I would do the same as soon as a vehicle left its warranty period….sadly I can’t subsidise the industry behind fixing these units.
mikertroidFree Member
@joe I deleted mine a year ago on a Renault Trafic, that I’d already spent 2k replacing all the components to no joy, doing the ‘right’ thing.Renault UK and Renault France were at a loss. With an upcoming MoT, the only choice was to delete it or write the van off. I’m not rich enough to throw a van in the bin!
Deletion was fine, about £250. Sailed thru MoT, even after asking about it…it’s not a test item. Hasn’t missed a beat since.
I would do the same as soon as a vehicle left its warranty period….sadly I can’t subsidise the industry behind fixing these units.
I don't understand this. How can it still be broken if you replaced all the components? Surely that just means the mechanics didn't understand what the real problem was. 🤷♂️ Or is the design just that shite that it failed again?
Does anyone use an audible additive? I have purchased a 125ml bottle of Wynn's Crystal Clear. I am a bit nervous about putting it in the tank.
I would do the same as soon as a vehicle left its warranty period….sadly I can’t subsidise the industry behind fixing these units.
I can sort of understand the sentiment behind disabling the system when it's beyond economic repair, but it seems wildly irresponsible to disable them preemptively as soon as they're out of warranty because they *might* cause you a little bit of inconvenience at some point in the future.
I don’t understand this. How can it still be broken if you replaced all the components? Surely that just means the mechanics didn’t understand what the real problem was. 🤷♂️ Or is the design just that shite that it failed again?
More likely that software wasn't updated or broken bits that *weren't* replaced damaged the bits that were changed.
Lots of mechanics don't have any idea whats going on with additive systems. Also, a good number of the early systems (i have history with eolys specifically) were bought in almost complete and integrated with the existing hardware, which is never easy, and can lead to issues down the line. Not sure if anyone does that with ad-blue systems though.
Does anyone use an audible additive?
I wouldn't. Unless you're an "out of normal range" user, it's just as likely to cause issues as fix them. Unless it's just snake oil. Which is also perfectly possible.
mertFree Member
More likely that software wasn’t updated or broken bits that *weren’t* replaced damaged the bits that were changed.
Yeah, sometimes when InsomniaScrolling on Youtube Shorts i will end up on DPF-trackworld and the customers will have already had a main dealer replace the DPF, EGR and various other sensors etc, only for it to be something like the thermostat or glow plugs preventing the regen from working resulting in the new parts getting the same issue.
Just annoying when it the customer is left footing the bill for it or they end up mapping it out when it could have been fixed.
Just annoying when it the customer is left footing the bill for it or they end up mapping it out when it could have been fixed.
Yeah that's a shame, but it sounds like PSA need to take a good chunk of the responsibility here.
I don’t understand this. How can it still be broken if you replaced all the components? Surely that just means the mechanics didn’t understand what the real problem was. 🤷♂️ Or is the design just that shite that it failed again?
Trafics/Vivaros had an issue where in certain conditions the AdBlue ECU would go into a non-start countdown that couldn't be reset, and the only option was to replace the ECU, ensuring you didn't copy over any stored data.
Other manufacturers would likely have fixed such an issue by releasing an update for the ECU, but IIRC Renault opted to make that ECU non-updatable.
mc
Trafics/Vivaros had an issue where in certain conditions the AdBlue ECU would go into a non-start countdown that couldn’t be reset, and the only option was to replace the ECU, ensuring you didn’t copy over any stored data.
Other manufacturers would likely have fixed such an issue by releasing an update for the ECU, but IIRC Renault opted to make that ECU non-updatable
Ha ha is that true? Awful 🤦
I have a 2015 Berlingo which has had endless ad blue problems. I’ve spent about £1000 a year on the adblue system over the last 3 years and the dreaded light has just come back on.
Until recently, I was the owner of a crap sixteen year old Italian diesel saloon and I can't believe that I put up with the amount of faffing around for so long. Regen mode merely burned more diesel and left soot stains all over the back of the car and made an already noisy car even more noisy. I had an exhaust sensor die, which left the car thinking that it needed to regen all the time, so limp mode for the umpteenth time quickly got old. I too had to fork out for an EGR and a new DPF over the years.
I'm glad that I didn't have to bother with pouring two different types of fluid into holes under the filler flap.
he old eolys system but at least you can top it up and it’s not highly toxic and carcinogenic
Wait. What?
it sounds like PSA need to take a good chunk of the responsibility here
Oof.
Other manufacturers would likely have fixed such an issue by releasing an update for the ECU, but IIRC Renault opted to make that ECU non-updatable
And Oof again.
Trafics/Vivaros had an issue where in certain conditions the AdBlue ECU would go into a non-start countdown that couldn’t be reset, and the only option was to replace the ECU, ensuring you didn’t copy over any stored data.
Yup....2 new Adblue ECUs didn't fix it....amongst other components....I had only 200km left in the end.
but it seems wildly irresponsible to disable them preemptively as soon as they’re out of warranty because they *might* cause you a little bit of inconvenience at some point in the future.
When it threatens to write off the vehicle, its more than a 'little' inconvenient. Would have no hesitation deleting Adblue again in the future.
he old eolys system but at least you can top it up and it’s not highly toxic and carcinogenic
Wait. What?
I was under the impression this was the case but after checking the MSDS it looks like it's just plain nasty shit rather than carcinogenic. Still don't want to get it on you.
but IIRC Renault opted to make that ECU non-updatable
to be fair, there are very *very* few cars that don't have some "fixed code" ECUs, or partitions within ECUs that are fixed, some of it is even legally mandated in certain markets (not many though!). The trick is making sure you've got it right before you sign off, and making sure any parameters that might need to be updated come from somewhere else!
Would have no hesitation deleting Adblue again in the future.
As a last resort, fine, but I wouldn't do it as a matter of course. If it worries you, in the future don't get a diesel.
As a last resort, fine, but I wouldn’t do it as a matter of course. If it worries you, in the future don’t get a diesel.
The biggest petrol van is a Nissan Townstar L2 AFAIK. Diesels power all bigger ones. Hence my next van will be diesel ( unless I can make a Townstar work-unlikely as I want to size up).
As soon as warranty runs out, I'll delete adblue, provided the law still allows it.
The issue is indeed with diesel. It is thankfully being (too slowly) killed off by EVs and urban regulations. Resorting to an illegal and health affecting bodge is very sad and quite inconsiderate but it's about the money, isn't it? I am surprised the authorities are so lenient on both those consumers and that particular cottage industry. Quite a serious crime in other countries.A particular shame on a cycling forum where health is a consideration.
I look forward to when a 400 mile range EV Van is available in Ducato L3 for the same as current prices.
Until then it's make do and mend accordingly. Preventative maintenance is part of that. Sorry some folk don't like it, but last year demonstrated the fragility and stupidity behind these systems. Not going there again!
For balance, I cycle and use public transport where necessary and minimise mileage where possible but still do 20k pa.
Preventative maintenance is part of that.
Disabling systems that were put in place to protect public health is not preventative maintenance.
I am surprised the authorities are so lenient on both those consumers and that particular cottage industry.
DVSA do occasionally target tuning/modification companies, but they simply don't have the resources to do more
Alternatively, manufacturers can make these systems robust and repairable, to avoid nearly writing off otherwise perfectly good vehicles. That would be the golden solution.
