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My oldest son is due to start primary school later this year. We live in one of the rougher parts of edinburgh and our ctachment school is the worst in the city according to the relevant reports. We have tried to get him into other english language schools outside of the catchment but have as yet been unsuccessful. One option that we do have is to send him to a gaelic medium school that will immerse him in gaelic to teach him the language and also give him his lessons in gaelic. This school is designed to take both gaelic and non-gaelic speakers through their primary education - this school has a very good reputation. It also feeds into a far better secondary school than the local english speaking one. Neither me or the wife speak gaelic, but would be happy to learn to if it helped the boy.
What would you do?
English school + move house
Can't see Gaelic itself being much use, but a bilingual education is great for learning other languages later in life. My kids (English / Spanish) are noticeably better than others in their class at picking up a third language (they're learning Chinese...), and my sister's experience (English / Italian / French speaking kids) seems to back that up.
My vote for Gaelic, then.
Moving house is not an option, nor is independent school at this point in time.
Visit the schools, the reports can only tell you so much. Do you read to him every day, and fill the time with doing thing together, books everywhere. That will make a massively bigger difference than a primary school. Secondary different, can't compensate for a bad one with home activities.
I have visited both schools - it was like night and day. The purpose of this thread is to convince the wife.
Are there no Bantu schools near you then?
The only thing to concern you is the backgrounds of the majority of kids who go to a school. I'm guessing you don't want him drawn into the murkier side of society.
Go with the better school, if you're living in an English speaking country (albeit Scotland 🙂 ) he won't suffer compared to his peers.
I know folk who move house to make sure they get kids into GM school. Smaller class size, loads of money thrown at them for resources in the name of Gaelic, *generalisation - parents who give a crap about their kids/generalisation*.
More chances for music and art often aswell. English education doesn't suffer at all.
Go Gaelic in anticipation of secondary. It'll give him another free TV channel too.
I'd send him to the gaelic school, might not be relevant to yourself, as i don't know your family history but I wish my granny had taught me irish while i had the chance. Being bilingual should also make it easier to learn up other languages also i'd imagine. not a bad thing in todays multicultural world.
plus you seem to have the option of a school with a cracking reputation against an average one.. bit of a no brainer surely?
better gaelic school without hesitation. You can ignor eth elanguage medium tbh.
You can teach him English yourself - it would be difficult for them to not grow up proficient in its use given where they live and what language you speak, tv , books etc.
The language issue is not important the quality of the education is.
I assume the secondary school will be English speaking so i dont really see what harm it can do. If it does any harm it will be far less than being educated in a piss poor school where learning is not valued,their mates are chavs and the results are crap
that siad you also need to look at added value not result sper se and also the relevant OFSTED reports [ do they use them In Scotland?]
League tables are not that great IMHO hence added valueone is a better measure.
I can see why your wife is concerned about the language medium - are all lesson in Gaelic?- but the quality of the education should be the deiciding factor not the medium of the education.
I'm a fluent gaelic speaker. It has done me no harm at all.
The relevant reports can be a load of tosh - the intake can restrict or inflate the scores on tests regardless of how good or bad the school and teaching is. You have to visit the schools to make your own mind up, it's not just about the test results.
My son's been at a Welsh language school for about a year now. He's picked Welsh up very quickly though both the wife and I don't (or didn't speak) a word of it. The advantage was the class size: teacher ratio - in England the school he would have gone to had a one teacher plus assistant for 30 kids - in Wales he has one teacher plus 5 assistants for the same size class. If we moved back to England he'd definatley be behind compared to the other kids but at primary level I'm not really worried about that.
magowen100 - did he go a welsh speaking nursery?
Gaelic every time. The language itself is of medium use, but there are tons and tons of studies that suggest bilingual kids do better in everything.
The quetion is, how can learning another language not be good?
Actually - there is one way. Your kid and his friends/other siblings can give you lip and you won't understand 🙂
As for his English skills - well it's odds on that all the kids there will speak fine English anyway. So English lessons will be much more than 'My name is..' etc.
In Welsh medium schools IIRC they do English and Welsh both as first languages which is a bit of a cheat. My mate Arwel certainly did to avoid having to take French or German, but that was in a very Welsh area where lots of people were native speakers.
Will he remain in the catchment area for the secondary school, i.e. is it a guaranteed place if he attends one of the cluster primary schools?
I presume this is Tollcross/Boroughmuir you are considering?
move house
I love how people suggest that as if it's as easy as chnging your shoes.
I'm a fluent gaelic speaker. It has done me no harm at all.
edit that bit out in case she lurks here 😉
Tollcross it is. Secondary school is James Gillespie's which also has a Gaelic side to it which takes all Gaelic pupils within the city, so yes it is a guaranteed place.
Ah, even better than Boroughmuir then. What is your local secondary like by comparison?
However, I'd go with Tollcross on the basis of Gillespie's alone.
Go Gaelic. Children who've had a bilingual education tend to do better generally, for a variety of reasons.
Prof Colin Baker has done a great deal of research on this: http://www.bilingualism.bangor.ac.uk/people/colin_baker.php.en
Good luck!
Local secondary school is Craigroyston....
Think I have persuaded the wife that there is nothing to be lost by sending him to the Gaelic school, but that there is a hell of a lot to gain.
SBZ - he went to an english speaking one (in England). When we moved he had no prior exposure to welsh. He did start at school earlier than he would have done in england but he's only been taught in Welsh for the last year and a half. It does lead to some comedy moments when I think he's making up words (when you realise that five in welsh is pump, pronounced pimp, it suddenly makes the joke about what do you call a welshman with five sheep appear to have a new depth). It also is quite anazimg to see a four year old sing Sosban Fach at the top of his voice when I don't know a word of it.
Molgrips - in my local Welsh school english is the second language up to the age of five, so they are only taught in Welsh (even though 90% of the kids speak no welsh when they start). After five years old there is then the choice to go english or welsh streams.
The only downside I can see is if we moved back to England BUT I'm happy to pay for extra tuition if he needs it in order for him to have a second language.
I'd vote Gaelic. As an English speaking New Zealander who wanted to do Maori at school, but was prevented because of "timetabling issues with the top stream classes yeah right" I really wish I had stuck to my guns, it would be so useful in NZ now.
Fast forward to Scotland and I have recently done a LOT of work on my organisation's Gaelic Language Plan (as mandated under the Gaelic Language Act 2005). You will be seeing a lot more Gaelic in the future, especially with last nights result.
Being bi-lingual in any language has to be a good thing. However I believe Tollcross primary has some funding issues that you might care to research. Edinburgh Council allocated funds to extend the school then went back on it, or something along those lines those aren't actual facts.
Having done some of my teacher training at craigroyston, I'd Rex omens doing anything you can to get your kids to another school. Not a pleasant place at all.
My Gaelic teacher colleague reckons the kids with Gaelic speaking (or learning) parents do much better in Gaelic medium, so it should be worth you getting some lessons too.
I went to a Welsh primary school (North wales, not the english speeking South Wales, whole different ball game), before starting I probably knew enough to translate road signs. Got well above average scores in SAT's etc in year 6.
Moved to England just before starting Secondary School (Moved on 3rd September IIRC) and was definately not at a dissadvantage, the only problem was knowing the answer to questions in welsh but not English and having to translate my SAT papers and School Reports as none of the teachers could read them! And no I didn't embelish them!
The extra language is usefull if you keep it up, I can no longer speek Welsh, I can probably speek french better as that was taught rather than learnt if that makes sense? Within a year of moving to England speeking Welsh was almost impossible.
Neither of my parents spoke or speek Welsh.
Gaelic medium. The brightest kids at my daughters secondary school are the Gaelic kids.
If I was back home that would be a really interesting option, I understand the concern about doing something like sending your kids to a non-english speaking school however.
As with the rest, I totally say "go for it!", and not just because better school (although that is monsterously important!).
Our point of view is from living as an ex-pat in CH, and the experiences that our children and firneds/neighbours children have.
Agree, bilingual does mostly only good. It can be little tough for them at the begining, but here the problem is that they can be isolated in the playground until they pick up the lingo (also a cultural thing), but I guess that won't be a problem for yours in Em-bruh.
Also, we find there is a wee mental re-adjustment period as the kids brain re-aligns itself (warning, pseudo science!) to think and act in 2 languages that can outwardly appear that they are struggling, but they get over it really fast (6 months) and then... whoooosh! They do great.
As a scot, I would be thrilled to bits to have my kids be able to speak Gaelic, and me too for that matter!
FWIW, thorugh in another language in a couple of years (e.g. French), you'll be amazed how easy it is for them.
Kev
TINAS - its good to hear a move back didn't affect you too much, as I've said its my only concern with son at a Welsh speaking school.
I do think you're right though the language has to be sustained either at school or at home otherwise it'll be lost. Out of interest when you say you can no longer speak welsh can you still understand it? i.e. not speaking it yourself is different to not understanding it being spoken (hope that makes sense)
not the english speeking South [b]EAST[/b] Wales
FTFY 🙂
I also have another friend whose parents moved from somwhere in the Home Counties to remote Mid Wales - near Tregaron. So she has the comedy value of speaking English with a very southern accent but also fluent Welsh. She kept up her Welsh very well by having local friends who were native speakers, and now she is a GP in.. somewhere the other side of Carmarthen. Near Brechfa I expect 🙂 Where Welsh comes in handy talking to doddery old locals.
Big Eck will soon have banned all things English in his bid for freeeedom so they'll have a head start 😆
Another vote for Gaelic from the bilingual point of view. Apparently if you can learn a second language while young it makes it dramatically easier to learn other languages later and that has to be useful now. The downside is you may need to learn it as well if you want to be able to help or even correct homework. Has to be cool as well
I have a question. Is Gaelic seen as a pan-Scottish thing or simply a Northern/Western thing? Seems odd to find Gaelic medium schools in Edinburgh which is not historically a Gaelic area..?
Something to consider, if he goes to the Gaelic language school it sounds as if that will be quite a distance from where you live and also his mates? it make him a bit of an outsider and as wee kids can ,not saying that they all are, bit it might make him a target or not quite as friendly as the rest of the local kids. That might not be an issue to you, my friend has kids at the school, but they live in the sticks so not an issue for them.
All of the points made about language skills would be a great advantage.
I have a question. Is Gaelic seen as a pan-Scottish thing or simply a Northern/Western thing?
From an outsiders point of view I'd say it was pretty much a northern/western thing. The only people I know who speak it are from the far north and islands, and they never use it but it makes for interesting pub discussion.
do think you're right though the language has to be sustained either at school or at home otherwise it'll be lost. Out of interest when you say you can no longer speak welsh can you still understand it? i.e. not speaking it yourself is different to not understanding it being spoken (hope that makes sense)
I can read a book slowly as I know enough to get the gist of a scentance and fill in the gaps, listening to Welsh you'd have to be speekeing really slowly and saying something simple! Whereas French which I've not done since GCSE I could probably have a short conversation in, different wasys of learning I guess because at one point I could speek/read/write better Welsh than English and regulalry got 'confused' as to what I was reading e.g. Q: "Was the book in Welsh or english?" A:"No idea, I'd ahve to read it again and check". And I could do stuff like read a Welsh book to my parents in English, i.e. translate it as quick/quicker than I was reading it.
not the english speeking South EAST WalesFTFY
The north west is something like 66% of households speek Welsh, and IIRC the only place outside Patagonia where Welsh is spoken as an only language. South West is full of 2nd home owners, South East is basicaly england. The Valley's are very 'Welsh' I'll grant you but even friends from there don't believe that people up north don't/can't speek English.
I'm not a big fan of state funded gaelic medium education in parts of Scotland which weren't traditionally gaelic speaking. As a parent however I'd certainly consider making use of it if it was likely to give my kid a better education experience.
My mate was from Llanelli. His family and all his mates were Welsh only unless they were talking to us. Likewise my other mate from Aberaeron. Neither of which is in North Wales last time I looked 🙂
Did you come across people who couldn't speak English then? I met a fair few who sounded fairly foreign in it, but were still fluent enough. Perhaps I should say adults - I have read several reports from people who only learned English at school.
As an alternative, have you already looked at Davidsons Mains PS? Good school, good high school though there's not automatic entry to the high school if you are out of catchment area I think. However as far as I know most get in. There's already chilldren from Craigroyston and Drylaw that go to D Mains.
Tried there - 30 odd people on waiting list.
Aren't they all a bit odd in that area?
The natives have 6 webbed fingers and toes right enough.
FWIW, we considered sending our daughter to Tollcross. That was my primary (Boroughmiur was my secondary), my folks were living just around the corner and my wife is a native gaelic speaker. One of the reasons we didn't is that we wanted my daughter to fit in with all the local kids and being at Tollcross would make her "different" and a stranger to many. To be fair, this is more of an issue as they get older.