[Closed] 800 Families told to leave flats due to fire risk, immediately in london

Hopefully nobody on here works in a high or low rise block clad in the same materials and with faulty fire doors that dont close or stay shut.

working in them is a somewhat different scenario, different for fire drills, escapes, etc., and also people don't sleep there (OK, I might at my desk drop off during a teleconference but YKWIM)

Not sure how they've evaluated the actual short-term risk in order to justify turfing hundreds of families out into a leisure centre with no notice.

Did they find unexploded bombs in the blocks?

While it's nice that local authorities have woken up a bit about their responsibilities, this seems a little bit of a panicky arse-covering exercise.

So there's a fire tomorrow in a 4th floor flat which spreads via the cladding and the people are still living there?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Does seem a bit knee jerky/band wagonny/arse covery, although I can't really blame the council for that reaction.

So there's a fire tomorrow in a 4th floor flat which spreads via the cladding and the people are still living there?

Can understand a desire to be actively doing something because of all the criticism aimed at gov and councils, but it could be handled without evacuation.

Regular fire patrols and fire service instructed to hose the outside of the building as well as inside when a fire is reported inside the flat, just in case it spreads. Part of the problem here was that they hadn't realised it had spread outside when they put out the initial fire in the flat.

Keep a watch on the outside, instant any hint of spread, instruct everyone to evacuate.

Other thing would be to get everyone to unplug all electrical items until the cladding is removed. A pain, but perhaps less than being turfed out of your house with no notice and told it could be weeks or months before you're back.

You could evacuate everyone from every property because of a risk of this and that.

So there's a fire tomorrow

I wonder if anyone has actually looked at the risk of that happening in just the day or two you need to find proper accommodation for a large number of vulnerable families, vs the risks to them of being turfed out in the middle of the night with no time to make proper arrangements for those who need extra care?

Does seem a bit knee jerky/band wagonny/arse covery,

I wonder if anyone has actually looked at the risk of that happening

Risk - lowish possibly - consequences - Very high = mitigate risk

According to the BBC the council even offered to pay for the Fire Brigade to station appliances and crew outside the buildings, but the Brigade said it still would not be able to guarantee the residents safety.

It seems they tried desperately to come up with a way of legitimately avoiding evacuating the blocks, which is going to be a major logistical headache and cost the council a lot of money, even if it does get it back at some point from the contractors or even central government.

The problem is that the fire safety of people in these flats is completely dependent upon being able to rely on residents staying put in the event of fire. The moment it is no longer possible to do that and evacuation is essential for all residents in the event of fire, then the single exit stairwells mean that the buildings are inherently unsafe.

Reportedly they also found other problems which aggravated the risk. There's mention of the insulation of gas pipes going into flats, which I think probably means that the holes made in the concrete walls for the pipes have not been properly 'fire stopped'. So fire would be able to spread very quickly internally, as well as externally via cladding.

It sounds like this was not a borderline decision: the council probably had no choice.

I think they are obviously doing the right thing, there's now a risk of arsonists setting fire to these tower blocks. Nutters, terrorists or kids.

Same residents that have been vocal since Grenfall saying they fear for their safety due to the cladding and can't sleep because of it.Now moved out so they can quickly remedy/remove it, tenants still not happy though.

According to the BBC the council even offered to pay for the Fire Brigade to station appliances and crew outside the buildings, but the Brigade said it still would not be able to guarantee the residents safety.

It seems they tried desperately to come up with a way of legitimately avoiding evacuating the blocks, which is going to be a major logistical headache and cost the council a lot of money, even if it does get it back at some point from the contractors or even central government.

so if the fire brigade camped out all day every day, who would cover their areas for other fires and car crashes etc.

and will insures pay out the extremely high costs, and will those firms that where responsible still be in buissiness a few days after the start of the inquiry, theyll just declare bankruptcy and start up again a few days latter.

Aracer, I agree damned if you do, damned if you don't. How many fires have their been in those blocks in the ten years since they were installed? How many have reached the cladding? It does seem likely to be a bit of an over reaction - unless perhaps things like self closing fire doors etc are not working in which case there is a maintenance scandal there which is potentially worse than the cladding errors, because it would be obvious to anyone there is a problem and relatively easy to fix.

Personally I would have given people the option to move out UNLESS the remedial works themselves temporarily increase the risk e.g. By grinding off the fittings etc and make a fire more likely. It should be possible to significantly mitigate the risk without booting everyone out - fire extinguisher in every flat, more smoke detectors, hotline to report waste in hallways (and act on calls immediately) a different evacuation approach.

If I lived on the top two or three floors I would be concerned. If I had mobility issues that would impede evacuation I would be concerned. A blanket approach seems like an overreaction but I haven't seen the risks they have identified - we are assuming it is all about the cladding.

Given the costs involved in evacuation they presumably didn't think it could be mitigated by having 24/7 "fire wardens" in each block, until the cladding was removed.

It would be interesting to know however what powers they have to evict people from their homes at that notice and what judicial oversight there is of that? Does anyone know?

Simply no other option. The buildings are covered in flammable material which lets a fridge fire go up the outside and create a fire the fire service cannot put out.

In some respects its better this has been found to be a widespread problem as it will allow a truly national response. some serious questions to be asked about specifications / building regs.

been known about for years on other blocks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-23738142

i think the issues with building regs is that tose panels do not meet them

Essentially we need more red tape to ensure this does not happen

It does seem likely to be a bit of an over reaction

Does seem a bit knee jerky/band wagonny/arse covery

For me the issue is the fact that we are talking about 4 blocks in one borough getting evacuated. I simply don't believe that these 4 blocks are so manifestly different to many others around the country or even the world in the way they were build and then renovated. This is either a proportionate response from one borough council and dereliction of duty from all the others or an over zealous response from one. I can't see it can be anything other than that.

Maybe the best solution is to rip down these old council tower blocks (across the country). Should have gone years ago anyway.

Awaits shouts of gentrification and ethnic cleansing...

Though I'm hoping it may put a stop to some of the modern tower block building schemes. Luxury flat towers that are going to blight the centre of Woking (worse than it already is at least). Has some awful bright coloured cladding on the plans too.

Some in Basingstoke have an amazing wind tunnel sort of effect with towers close together. Also a potential fire hazard as it could fuel fire.

i think the issues with building regs is that tose panels do not meet them

Essentially we need more red tape to ensure this does not happen

For products that don't meet Building Regs, you do not need any more red tape. You need to be able to rely on the people, systems and procedures which should already be in place to prevent it happening in the first place, and to identify it when it does happen so that it can be fixed very early on with minimal disruption. Are the councils' own architects/specifiers, Building Control inspectors, and Fire Safety Officers being given enough time (and training) to properly review contractors' proposals and drawings and to undertake adequate site inspections during and after construction work?

Yes I agree it was sarcasm - we need the market to be even further regulated /checked/controlled though as it appears that products that do not meet requirements are able to be sold and installed

the RW usually refer to this as "red tape" when its just essential safety checks to stop businesses being unscrupulous in the pursuit of profit

They could have mitigated the disruption through partial evacuation of these blocks (say 18m and above) + added fire marshals 24/7.

A significant portion of those evacuated could then have stayed if their flats we below a designated level.

Clearly in that scenario occupants should be given the option to go.

In all fairness to the authorities they are in a difficult position.

They could have mitigated the disruption through partial evacuation of these blocks (say 18m and above) + added fire marshals 24/7.

Untested and given the fact that 80 odd people just died, I'd not want to take the risk.

aracer - Member

So there's a fire tomorrow in a 4th floor flat which spreads via the cladding and the people are still living there?

The big threat isn't so much a fire as how you get people out. Obviously tall buildings are worse than little buildings. 4th floor you can run a ladder or platform up to a window, frinstance, and it's much easier to get the fire crews in too when they don't use half their air supply just going up and down.

Worth a listen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p056nw0f

It's not clear if this relates just to the cladding, or whether it's tied in with previous renovation work too.

[quote=Northwind ]4th floor you can run a ladder or platform up to a window, frinstance, and it's much easier to get the fire crews in too when they don't use half their air supply just going up and down.

Yeah, but I only picked 4th floor because that's where the fire started in the Grenfell Tower - the assumption if it spreads via the cladding is that they'll be having to rescue people from much higher as with Grenfell.

Not that I'm entirely sure what the correct answer is, but I'm hoping they have better advice than that available from a forum of bike riding keyboard warriors.

Oh I see, sorry! I misunderstood, I read "4 storey flat"!

Those high-rise blocks need to be knocked down and the area redeveloped with better designed housing. Cladding a cold damp building in plastic sheets at £2.6m cost is still the cheaper option though.

I wonder which construction company(s) is going to put in the tender to carry out all the repairs ...

so what would YOU do if faced with potentially letting hundreds of people burn to death AND 100% guaranteed getting banged up for corporate manslaughter if that did happen?

Didn't stop Ford when they faced the prospect of a massive recall on a model that would burst into flames if rear ended. Many instances of the occupants dying. They did the sums, compo verses recall costs and decided not to do the recall. Let them burn, was written on the paperwork.

Hasn't harmed Ford from what I can see

ford do not stand for election and I assume they do not have corporate manslaughter rules in the US??

I wonder which construction company(s) is going to put in the tender to carry out all the repairs ...

Do you ?

I'm not bothered who does it. as long as it gets done properly and the people are able to move back in and live safely.

ford do not stand for election and I assume they do not have corporate manslaughter rules in the US??

Also, that all happened 45 years ago.

I suspect Ford would react very differently now.

(Not just because they got their sums wrong, and ended up doing a recall of 1.5M cars anyway)

Luxury flat towers that are going to blight the centre of Woking (worse than it already is at least).

How is that even possible?

Unless they build them who is going to eat at all the new restos ?

and tonight another flat block fire in london town

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40392587

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/24/government-u-turn-over-fire-safety-controls-for-new-schools

Another conservative u-turn - this time theyve decided not to risk burning your children to death on an alter to deregulation and saving some money.

The Tories really are pond scum.

Another conservative u-turn - this time theyve decided not to risk burning your children to death on an alter to deregulation and saving some money.

The main problem with fires in schools is arson, and this is usually caused by teenagers and youths starting a fire outside school hours. Protecting the building from these sorts of fires, not life safety, has been why insurers and others have been pushing for sprinklers in new schools.

School fires/arson are far less common outside the UK, and this is a social problem. So we are having to spend more money on new schools to include sprinklers because of the people who start those fires, money which would otherwise be better spent on teacher salaries (I know it's not either/or, but at the end of the day resources are limited: money spent to rebuild schools that are destroyed by arson and on sprinklers to protect against arson takes away from the total available pot).

For me the issue is the fact that we are talking about 4 blocks in one borough getting evacuated. I simply don't believe that these 4 blocks are so manifestly different to many others

Theres two factors really (or probably more) one is what the cladding is made of and the other is how its applied. The lay out of the panels at Grenfell seemed to effectively create vertical chimneys up the outside of the building.

So the application may be different in other blocks - the heights/ sizes / densities of the buildings might be different - the facilities for evacuation might be different. We're getting news of numbers of building checked and declarations of those effected but the may not all be high rise blocks.

Emotively - though the 4 blocks being evacuated were clad by the same company so while all the blocks being tested and checked have shown similarities these 4 are perhaps that bit more similar in the eyes of the people who have to sleep in them.

For those that are trying to politicise the Grenfell fire its worth noting that the 4 Camden Blocks where rennovated between 2006 and 2009

[quote=jambalaya ]For those that are trying to politicise the Grenfell fire

That would be you IIRC

Another conservative u-turn - this time theyve decided not to risk burning your children to death on an alter to deregulation and saving some money.

So 60 out of 60 failed so far but only the 4 evacuated because extenuating circumstances of other risks in the building dictated it necessary and they are all within a mile or so of each other and run by the same people. Granted these 4 were architectural 'sisters' but still not convinced that quite rings true as a reflection of proportionality though no idea which way is correct.

Some in Basingstoke have an amazing wind tunnel sort of effect with towers close together. Also a potential fire hazard as it could fuel fire.

Have noticed a similar effect in the bits of Cardiff that are being redeveloped. The new flats down Cardiff Bay and the new BBC building in the city centre are having this effect even before they are finished! The John Lewis building has created the same effect too down Bute Terrace, can turn a gentle westerly breeze into a 30mph gale down there sometimes.