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Well ittud be a darn sight better thought out than Stoner Law... 😉
Yes, this is a fact and a very sad one too, but did the plod commit murder or manslaughter or was it simply a series of very sad and very unfortunate events? If that was the case, then there is no purpose to be served in punishing someone.
Well, as I recall, the reliable medical evidence (not the stooge struck-off coroner) was that Tomlinson most likely died as result of his mistreatment by the police.
Alfie Meadows was put in hospital by a cop with a baton. Did the cop who hit him do it accidentally? Did he get carried away and do it for a lark? Did he spot a wasp on Meadows' head and decide to help him out by swatting it? No, he did not - he acted deliberately in a way that could (and did) have very serious consequences.
The extinguisher muppet did something stupid, to be sure, but I don't think he is accused of deliberately aiming the extinguisher at anyone, or having in mind to kill or injure anyone.
One is punished. One is not.
I noticed he actually slung it towards the hi-viz group of officers.
Tosser. I truly hope you enjoy the showers idiot.
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Right! Which one of you threw that?
The extinguisher muppet did something stupid, to be sure, but I don't think he is accused of deliberately aiming the extinguisher at anyone, or having in mind to kill or injure anyone.
What? That's a joke isn't it......... haha you got me there!
He's going to get passed around the showers like a peace pipe 8)
I noticed he actually slung it towards the hi-viz group of officers.Tosser. I truly hope you enjoy the showers idiot.
God knows how many he would have killed if he had just dropped the thing!
At least his parents new what was the right thing to do....
only right hes been sent down.
regarding the other drivel on this thread, grow up.
Are ALL Police officers culpable for the actions of a few on a different date in different circumstances?
They do a difficult job working shifts, over public holidays and how many times do any of you descenters suffer physical abuse on a regular basis in your job?
They are at the sharp end protecting me and you. Hats off to them.
I wonder how many times officers have been injured (yes they are) but how many times is such footage shown on the news/internet etc? Its worth more to report 'outrage' isn't it than see your bobbies suffering.
One person dies and everyone goes all 'fight the power man'.
OMG, i hate to say this but
hora put that much better than i did.
Erm, well if anyone else had battered a bloke with a truncheon, a bloke who happened to be walking away and not causing any trouble, and the bloke had died, what do you think they'd be up for?
Yes he was walking away, but it was a pressure situation and I would like to assume the plod thought that the guy wasn't walking away and wasn't just having a go 'cause it's a laugh - he was trying to control a high-tension situation.
the reliable medical evidence (not the stooge struck-off coroner) was that Tomlinson most likely died as result of his mistreatment by the police.
Agreed (apart from the mistreatment crap). But did the occifer do it deliberately to cause serious injury or death? That is the important thing to consider.
I have no doubt that lines may have been crossed on that day but I haven't seen anything that, in my mind, suggests the plod did anything to deliberately cause death.
The bloke did something extremely stupid, got caught and deserves to be punished - up to a point - was intent established?
What sticks in my throat is the Tomlinson cover up (because that's what it amounts to) and the recent revelations about the climate protestors being set up.
I have no faith in the police, they have become politicised and serve Whitehall not the public.
and for the murder of demenezes who was found guilty of that?
they should make the student guy share a cell with that MP that went down, they could both live in fear of the real crims
One person dies and everyone goes all 'fight the power man'.
Not just one person/one incident though is it?
the murder of demenezes
So what would you have done in those officers position based on the situation and the intelligence that you are actively being given?
You are on the spot, there in that tube after a chase with the knowledge (to you) that he is one of the terrorists, so Jack Bauer. What would you have done?
and 32 months seems quite harsh compared to
http://www.stop-smidsy.org.uk/case-study/lorry-driver-who-killed-cyclist-a34-given-community-sentence
or this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/drinkdriver-jailed-for-crash-that-killed-cyclist-widow-attacks-21month-sentence-as-total-insult-1499895.html
or this
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23886884-dead-cyclists-family-angered-by-pound-200-fine-for-lorry-driver.do
or this
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Driver-who-killed-cyclist-freed-from-jail.htm
Yes he was walking away, but it was a pressure situation and I would like to assume the plod thought that the guy wasn't walking away and wasn't just having a go 'cause it's a laugh - he was trying to control a high-tension situation.
It was a pressure situation - so that relieves the cops of their obligations? But muppet gets carried away by the situation and it's tough luck for him? Double standards.
"the reliable medical evidence (not the stooge struck-off coroner) was that Tomlinson most likely died as result of his mistreatment by the police."Agreed (apart from the mistreatment crap).
How would you describe being shoved and beaten?
But did the occifer do it deliberately to cause serious injury or death? That is the important thing to consider.I have no doubt that lines may have been crossed on that day but I haven't seen anything that, in my mind, suggests the plod did anything to deliberately cause death.
Deliberately cause death? No - but act in a way that can reasonably be predicted to cause injury - yes. Just like throwing an extinguisher.
You got me DrJ, you're right.
I'm just bored of this now.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean this kid doesn't deserve his sentence.
With the Ian Tomlinson thing, the copper was clearly out of line and should be punished accordingly, but I don't think he or anyone else could have forseen that his actions would lead to someones death. Yes he's still dead, but I think intent has to come into it somewhere.
Chucking a fire extinguisher at someone off a roof isn't the same as pushing someone over in my book.
So what would you have done in those officers position based on the situation and the intelligence that you are actively being given?
In those officers position? Maybe the same - it's hard to know what they saw, how coplex the situation was. But is that the extent of the culpability? Who was punished for supplying that "intelligence"? Or setting up the situation where an innocent man is killed?
.Chucking a fire extinguisher [b]at someone[/b] off a roof isn't the same as pushing someone over in my book
Did he do that?
So what would you have done in those officers position based on the situation and the intelligence that you are actively being given?You are on the spot, there in that tube after a chase with the knowledge (to you) that he is one of the terrorists, so Jack Bauer. What would you have done?
id have shot him then colluded with my other officers to lie about it afterwards
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/menezes-did-the-police-lie-1064461.html
its the classic south park hes comming right for us defence
Chucking a fire extinguisher at someone off a roof isn't the same as pushing someone over in my book.
Did he do that?
Did he not?
He threw it off a roof into a courtyard with a lot of people in it. That's effectively throwing it into a group of people as far as I'm concerned.
Did he do that?
So he was aiming for that 2sq foot of unoccupied space then?
Behave now DrJ as you are losing it a bit....
In those officers position? Maybe the same - it's hard to know what they saw, how coplex the situation was. But is that the extent of the culpability? Who was punished for supplying that "intelligence"? Or setting up the situation where an innocent man is killed
If you bothered to follow the inquest you'll find it was a chain/breakdown throughout the whole command due to the uniqueness of the situation.
There had been some experience of brutal tactics by the IRA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/27/newsid_3891000/3891055.stm
but these were effectively a long time ago.
When your enemy places dirty with guerilla tactics, mistakes can and will be made.
Would you rather the security forces held off 'just incase' someone innocent might get hurt?
Its VERY sad however like I said, these chaps are at the sharp end. I knew some absolute nutters growing up- thank **** when they went pop it was someone paid to deal with them and not me, Joe public.
Chucking a fire extinguisher at someone off a roof isn't the same as pushing someone over in my book
Well, he's a cross-eyed muppet then. With all those Peace Officers there, he still managed to miss them. Wouldn't want him in my darts team.
and anyway, what about Blair Peach huh?
So he was aiming for that 2sq foot of unoccupied space then?Behave now DrJ as you are losing it a bit..
Sorry, but ad hominem doesn't make your argument stronger
Do you know what he was aiming for? What was in his mind?
If you bothered to follow the inquest you'll find it was a chain/breakdown throughout the whole command due to the uniqueness of the situation.
The link Kimbers posted effectively deals with this point.
Do you know what he was aiming for? What was in his mind?
You're just being obtuse now.
I'm oot.
Did he do that?
Yes of course he did. In the videos you see him looking over at who was where and then launched it towards the cops.
DrJ you really are an ares [s]on this one[/s].
Do you know what he was aiming for? What was in his mind?
Moment of madness?
He lost it?
He wanted to hurt someone?
Malice of forethought?
Some cases of manslaughter involve people who werent shouting "I want to kill"
🙄
Do you think he was sentenced by tossing a coin?
Yes of course he did. In the videos you see him looking over at who was where and then launched it towards the cops.
Yeah, but unless you can read his mind then you cannot be sure of this*!
*Derren Brown to the forum*
*Sentence courtesy of DrJ.
DrJ you really are an ares
Why are you calling names? I am simply trying to see his actions in an objective light, and comaparing them with the violence meted out by the police on that, and similar occasions.
I'm oot
If you're leaving the thread, just stop posting - no need to make an announcement. People might think you are just looking for a dramatic effect.
Come on, anyone who signs up for the Met Police has a passion for a ruck, it's part of the job description. That's why they wear armour.
Plus, has anyone on here actually ever been hit on the head with a fire extinguisher?
Well I have, from 30 floors up AND it was a proper water one, not one of these namby pamby foam things that student threw like a girl. It didn't even hurt, not one bit.
If you're leaving the thread, just stop posting - no need to make an announcement. People might think you are just looking for a dramatic effect.
Now this leaves me in a tricky position as I was actually referring to engaging with you, and not leaving the thread. Thing is I am going to have to do so again, see this post, in order to tell you this, thus negating my initial announcement of this fact and introducing the element of hypocrisy into my previous statement.
So apologies for that and I hope everything is cleared up now.
This particular scumbag has just gone down for life
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/11/rapist-police-officer-life-sentence
Good point by kimbers that he is getting a considerably longer sentence than a lot of people that have actually killed other people.
I bet if it hadn't been seen by public he would have had a shorter/no sentence, stupid british justice system.
Well, as I recall, the reliable medical evidence (not the stooge struck-off coroner) was that Tomlinson most likely died as result of his mistreatment by the police.
And as I recall both those conclusions were drawn from an error in the wording of the first coroner.
But that doesn't make headlines 😉
Good point by kimbers that he is getting a considerably longer sentence than a lot of people that have actually killed other people.
I bet if it hadn't been seen by public he would have had a shorter/no sentence, stupid british justice system.
It's a testament to british justice that he's been processed to quickly. Of course only the cynical could believe its been fast tracked to attempt to dissuade others from active protest...
There are potential a few (conspiracy) theories behind this huh?
A view that an attack on Prince Philip (ever happen before?) so close to a Royal wedding.
It'll scare alot of people that the fabric of a rich royal family that could potentially be seen as attackable by its own population as a step too far.
If, as reported the protection officers were close to drawing their weapons this would have put everything in a truly awful position.
he's been processed to quickly?
seems fairly cut and dry there was evidence he confessed he got sentenced.
At least he can get on with doing his time and mentaly move on seems to be the best for him and is what I wanted .I think that he will probaly appeal his sentence and it will be reduced.
"Of course only the cynical could believe its been fast tracked to attempt to dissuade others from active protest..."
Only the cynical or those unfamiliar with the courts, this was an indication of a guilty plea from the outset sent up to the crown court to sentence. The case was first in court in november the only issue was how to sentence and that needed an adjournment for a probation report. The case has been dealt with in exactly the time frame one would have expected.
This lad appears to have done something really stupid but at least had the good grace to come forward identify himself and take his punishment. The sentence seems about right too.
Whilst I agree with him being locked up, the sentance does seem rather long, in comparison to other cases...
Either way, he must have been on some uncontrollable adrenaline rush to do such a stupid impulsive act.