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systematic abuse of children
What, male circumcision? A procedure practiced in many cultures/societies around the globe, that has absolutely **** all damaging effects on billions of men who have been circumcised throughout history?
Ha ha! I've read some ignorant shit on here, but this is right up there with the best!
Gotta be a troll, surely?
Who wants to see my knob? It's shiny and lovely. 😀
[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReg5rHLBoq5I-MgAtfxAvTAj2C0xhXjVHIR9u-gGOJX6I7qoEa [/img]
Who wants to see my knob?
What that thing on top of your shoulders ? ...........I've seen it loads of times.
DD; I jolly well have not had it chrome plated, but now you mention it....
It has been polished quite a bit though.
I made the mistake of image googling "shiny knob" 😯
that has absolutely **** all damaging effects on the billions of men who have been circumcised throughout history?
I tried to read up on this. Evidence to support the above claim seems to amount to circumcised men saying "Let me tell you, there is NOTHING wrong with MY willy hur hur hur!"
Unfortunately it's impossible to contrast and compare in this situation.
Mol, let me tell you....
A procedure practiced in many cultures/societies around the globe,
...for absolutely no good reason whatsoever. Just because a procedure is widely practiced does not make it a good idea, and does not mean it isn't "systematic abuse".
'Systematic abuse'
Oh my giddy aunt... 😆
This thread is one that'll keep on giving, is not it?
Let the abuse commence....
I was merely quoting what other people have said and pointing out a flaw in your argument. I don't personally think that it qualifies as abuse (although you can't really argue with the systematic part), however performing an unnecessary and pointless operation on a child is however wrong in my opinion.
however performing an unnecessary and pointless operation on a child is however wrong in my opinion.
It's ignorance like this that I find amusing yet a bit sad at the same time. 😐
Where's the ignorance there, Fred? It seems like a valid point if not necessarily one I agree with.
Well rather than being condesending like that, why don't you give me a good medical (or other) reason why it isn't pointless and unnecessary and also why it can't wait until the child has grown into an adult and is capable of making the decision themself?
why it can't wait until the child has grown into an adult
😮
It's ignorance like this that I find amusing yet a bit sad at the same time
That's not ignorance, it's an opinion.
There's no doubting it's unnecessary, medically, so the opinion is a valid one IMO.
Well rather than being condesending like that, why don't you give me a good medical (or other) reason why it isn't pointless and unnecessary and also why it can't wait until the child has grown into an adult and is capable of making the decision themself?
Have a think about parts of the World where male circumcision grew to be popular, and part of the culture. Take the Middle East for example, where Judaism and Islam were born. Hot, dry, dusty places often without significant or even available water supplies. People would have travelled about the region a lot, trading, herding livestock, escaping persecution etc. So, regular washing and hygiene wooduv bin difficult. Circumcision helps keep things nice and clean down there. For maximum benefit, best to do it while the child is very young; drastically reduces the risk of infection and subsequent future complications.
So, not at all 'pointless and unnecessary'. If it were, it would most likely have not bin practiced globally and have more or less died out.
Female circumcision is another matter entirely, and I agree that it is a form of abuse. It is noticeably far, far less widesread and not particularly popular certainly not amongst more progressive religious communities.
But don't go dissing my thang cos it's better lookin' than yours... 8)
There's no doubting it's unnecessary, medically, so the opinion is a valid one IMO.
There's 'no doubt', is there? Oh right, so you speak for the entire global medical community, do you?
Have a think about parts of the World where male circumcision grew to be popular, and part of the culture. Take the Middle East for example, where Judaism and Islam were born. Hot, dry, dusty places often without significant or even available water supplies. People would have travelled about the region a lot, trading, herding livestock, escaping persecution etc. So, regular washing and hygiene wooduv bin difficult. Circumcision helps keep things nice and clean down there. For maximum benefit, best to do it while the child is very young; drastically reduces the risk of infection and subsequent future complications.
Sure, but to quote the sainted Martin Fry, that was then and this is now. So what's the justification in 2011, in the UK/US/Europe, where the cleanliness argument no longer applies?
Why do people get their ears/other body parts pierced (Poddy I'm looking at YOU!)? Why wear tattoos? Why have a particular hairstyle, wear particular clothes, make-up, perfume, fake tan, 'skin lightening' cream, etc etc etc?
As for the 'let someone decide for themselves when they are an adult', well, fair enough. I don't disagree with that, tbh.
But I'm not bothered, and neither are any of the other 'systematically abused' blokes I know. 😀
Circumcision helps keep things nice and clean down there.
Umm... you don't need to cut your cheeks off to clean your teeth, do you?
I'm not convinced by the cleaning argument. Does anyone actually need to wash their foreskin?
Take the Middle East for example, where Judaism and Islam were born. Hot, dry, dusty places often without significant or even available water supplies. People would have travelled about the region a lot, trading, herding livestock, escaping persecution etc. So, regular washing and hygiene wooduv bin difficult.
2000 years ago perhaps, but why is still done today when most of that no longer applies?
Does anyone actually need to wash their foreskin?
Yeah you do; with bleach and a wire brush!
You filthy dirty unclean beast...
I have actually heard other (uncircumcised) blokes complaining about infections and stuff. Never heard anyone circumcised getting owt nasty. Dunno if this is evidence that circumcision is healthier at all, just saying what I've heard.
But then apparently I've bin 'systematically abused', so maybe I'm all mentally screwed up or something and can't think straight...
apart from the pun, in contrast to female circumcision it actually has positive effects in terms of sexual pleasure. The exposed glans becomes less sensitive and allows the circumcised guy to last longer
Mrs deadly's just enquiring as to the veracity of this. She mentioned something about a cost-benefit analysis. 😐
Using an apparent reduction in risk of HIV as a reason for circumsision is at best weak
By that argument, you could reduce the risk of HIV to almost nil by removing the penis completely.
"however performing an unnecessary and pointless operation on a child is however wrong in my opinion."It's ignorance like this that I find amusing yet a bit sad at the same time.
How would you feel about a small child whose parents had given him, say, a tattoo or pierced ears?
EDIT: sorry, simultaneous posts, you sort of mentioned this in passing. Difference is, choice as an adult, or choice made for you by parent.
it actually has positive effects in terms of sexual pleasure
Umm.. not entirely convinced. I read much anecdotal evidence from women saying that circumcised men were typically more sensitive and gentle lovers, what with having a more delicate and sensitive bell end (possibly).
Elfin have you ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever...ever...said the words 'mmm yeah I take your point'?
By that argument, you could reduce the risk of HIV to almost nil by removing the penis completely.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I'n not advocating it a means of reducing the risk of HIV, quite the reverse.
How would you feel about a small child whose parents had given him, say, a tattoo or pierced ears?
Tattoos are illegal in this country for anyone under 18 so that's not a valid argument and pierced ears will heal up if it is decided later that they are not wanted so that comparison isn't valid either. That being said I am generally opposed to that too.
How would you feel about a small child whose parents had given him, say, a tattoo or pierced ears?
Dunno if tattooing is actually legal under a certain age in the UK, and there are absolutely no health benefits, perceived or otherwise, and in fact probbly certain health risks. But many people have them done and are fine. Ear-piercing; it's a very quick and relatively painless procedure, and doesn't seem to cause serious harm, physical or mental, to even young children, so I don't think it's that bad. Praps wait until the child is at least old enough to understand what it's all about though. I've got friends with daughters, who've had them as young as three wanting pierced ears, most have made them wait until they're a bit older, but it seems the kids really want them, and are prepared to suffer a bit of temporary discomfort to look nice.
Elfin have you ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever...ever...said the words 'mmm yeah I take your point'?
Well, I actually did pretty much that, here:
As for the 'let someone decide for themselves when they are an adult', well, fair enough. I don't disagree with that, tbh.
Try reading. You might learn something. 😉
This will always be a matter of foreskinless people defending the action because they have to.
Ear-piercing; it's a very quick and relatively painless procedure, and doesn't seem to cause serious harm, physical or mental, to even young children, so I don't think it's that bad
Conceptually though - invasively decorating your kid for your pleasure? They're not dolls...
Elfin have you ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever...ever...said the words 'mmm yeah I take your point'?
He does if you make good enough points 🙂
A procedure practiced in many cultures/societies around the globe
I never realized that a procedure being wide spread was a form of validation.
Heehee! You lot are arguing about willies now 
I might get mine out and start waving it in a minute, Dez.
Well, it does look particularly [i]nice[/i]....
Let's dispense with a few myths, shall we.
In the Western world in the 21st century, there are two and only two reasons to circumcise.
The first is medical. There are complaints which necessitate a foreskinectomy. (A mate of mine had it done, so is in a fairly unusual position of being able to comment on before and after).
The second is ritual. We've always done it / everyone else does it / his dad did it and he should match / our religion dictates it etc.
Everything else is cobblers. Sorry. It doesn't make you any better or worse in bed, it isn't any more or less hygienic, it doesn't stop you catching galloping nob-rot, it doesn't prevent masturbation (sorry, America), and it doesn't make you walk on water or shoot sparks out of your arse. All these other 'reasons' are just excuses to justify putting a child through non-therapeutic surgery.
Whether or not it's right to modify a newborn infant's genitals is an interesting discussion, but let's not hide behind nonsense, hey?
There's 'no doubt', is there? Oh right, so you speak for the entire global medical community, do you?
Maybe, as you said, in hot dry countries there were benefits, maybe there still are. I didn't know that.
Maybe if there were good reasons, humans in those areas would have evolved differently...?
But is it necessary in the rest of the world, medically? No. It's a tradition, no more, no less.
I have no problem with it personally, live and let live, but the opinion is still sound IMO.
Why do people get their ears/other body parts pierced (Poddy I'm looking at YOU!)? Why wear tattoos?
Big difference. That's personal choice at an age when I can make that decision. If I was tattooed when I was a baby, that would be different.
Tattoos are illegal in this country for anyone under 18 so that's not a valid argument
I think the very fact that it's illegal reinforces the argument rather than invalidates it. Why is it illegal when circumcision isn't? What's the difference?
and pierced ears will heal up if it is decided later that they are not wanted so that comparison isn't valid either.
Again, yes, it is. Most people (I'd expect) would be appalled at seeing a baby with pierced ears, and that's almost wholly reversible.
Bored with this now. Can't be bothered any more. Argument's done and dusted, I'm right (like, as if there would ever be anything different), and besides, I've got some polishing to do...
Why is it illegal when circumcision isn't? What's the difference?
Personally I don't see any difference and I'd be more than happy if cricumcision of children ([i]medical[/i] requirements not withstanding) were treated in the same way.
Elfin have you ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever...ever...said the words 'mmm yeah I take your point'?
He did when he performed my circumcision
Praps wait until the child is at least old enough to understand what it's all about though. I've got friends with daughters, who've had them as young as three wanting pierced ears, most have made them wait until they're a bit older, but it seems the kids really want them, and are prepared to suffer a bit of temporary discomfort to look nice.
Exactly. So, why doesn't this rule apply to circumcision? Wait until the child is old enough to make their own decision, say an age of consent of, what, 16?
Do we think that if we offered 16-year-old boys the opportunity to cut off a bit of their penis, there'd be a stampede of interest? That they'd be sitting there at 14 in the throes of puberty thinking, "man, I can't wait till I'm 16 and I can get rid of this damned foreskin"?
He did when he performed my circumcision
You know you're not supposed to use your teeth, right?
(-:
Do you know of anyone who has been circumcised who wishes they hadn't? In fact, we're all pretty glad we had it done. So thanks for your concern but really, we weren't abused
You know you're not supposed to use your teeth, right?
How else can you do it so gently?
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Do you know of anyone who has been circumcised who wishes they hadn't? In fact, we're all pretty glad we had it done. So thanks for your concern but really, we weren't abused
Personally, no. But they're out there. Organisations like [url= http://www.norm-uk.org/foreskin_restoration.html ]NORM-UK[/url] wouldn't exist otherwise.
(as an aside, one of NORM-UK's patrons is the actor Alan Cumming. *giggle* *snort* *hyuk*)