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Just seen these INEOS pics:
Wow.
Thats a spaceship not a boat
Yeah I remember those..never tried one. Not sure if you've watched the Robbie Naish interview on Windsurfing.TV, but he doesn't think the current design of foiling windsurfers are "right"...he admits he doesn't know what right is, but thinks they should be able to go way faster
Not seen that. I don't really following windsurfing much these days. I'll check it out.
Foilwise it was always the issue of getting enough power to get you foilborne and then not having too much power/drag/weight from the rig. And when it gets windy it usually gets choppy, so 'fun' times ahoy!
I will try one next summer. Looking forward to it.
I’m on a prima 38 and love the windy days .
But to be foiling at these speeds, must be incredible..
One day maybe if the technology ever drips down..
So, Day one of the Americas Cup - World Series. UK with a DNF and DNS. Cant system failure and had to abandon the second race as they tried not to capsize in the crowd. Not the start they were hoping for, but it looks like they have had issues for a while with the foils now. At least the US boat took a race off NZ.
Jesus, those things are scary fast.
closing speeds are phenomenal, unless that is you don't have control of your foils.
Jesus, those things are scary fast.
Potential closing speed of over 100kmh...
they've been reporting for a couple of weeks that the british boat is well off the pace
they’ve been reporting for a couple of weeks that the british boat is well off the pace
It seems more complex than that - it is slower to get up and going, but seems really quick in a blow, and seems to be (like Luna Rossa) quick in the turns. They have also had less development time on the water, with a few breakages and later start than others.
We are still 4 weeks from the actual event, and while it looks a bit shoogly at the moment, I am not betting against Ainslie and crew yet.
Team NZ crash.
Dive, dive, dive..
I'm surprised the rig survived that.... Maybe bits of it didn't.
On the plus side ineos is looking much punchier
After the pre-christmas racing I was rather worried that there was a major technical issue with the uk boat. But they appear to have her going well now. Pre-start penalties and a poor gybe and capsize from NZ, and from what I hear today quite a bit quicker than Prada downwind. So starting to get in to a good place. Looking forward to next weeks racing where it really starts to matter.
From what I've read, apart from better starts, Ineos is still too slow compared to any of the other boats (capsizes not withstanding)
Maybe.... pre-christmas they were at least as fast as the others - they just had a problem with lift-off.
I noticed the foil is very different now so they may have sacrificed some top end speed for better low speed lift.
You'd have thought that with all the F1 aerodynamics talent in the UK they'd have this completely nailed!
On the plus side ineos is looking much punchier
It is. The general consensus seemed to be that in a moderate+ breeze, in a straight line they are the fastest boat, from before Christmas. The issue seemed to be transition to take off, lighter winds and control during manoeuvres. Between possibly dodgy foils or the unsubstantiated software moans, they could see quite an improvement.
... and in displacement mode (non-foiling) they're fast!
So, pray for howling gales or flat calm, nothing in-between...?
Wasn't expecting that!
Well, how about that! Everyone wrote off the British boat a bit too quickly.
Well now.
That's great. Good on them.
The question- what changed (apart from stinger wind) and was pre-Christmas just hiding thier potential?
I know even a couple of weeks ago that commentators were saying when they got going they were the fastest top speed boat in a breeze.
Apparently, lots of work in the boat shed over Christmas, Ben also mentioned (twice) help from Mercedes GP, but still lots to do.
Cracking start...shows what I know! Hope they can keep it up in lighter winds
So, going back to my comment earlier about the F1 talent in the UK the Mercedes link makes 100% sense!
I wonder if they were brought in just before Xmas?
I bet they were.... Original foils were no good so they went to the best for help.
How long after the Prada cup before we see LH on board for a ride?!
Anyway, well done them..... Fantastic result.
what changed
I understand that they changed the mast, main, jib, rudder, elevator on the rudder, and how they control the foils. I suspect they changed the angle of attack of the main foils and some alterations to the foils themselves, as well as computer systems which control them. I think they also referenced they have changed how they use it all as well, as some other mods to the hull which arnt overly apparent to the naked eye.
Apart from what they've done with the boat, it looks like Ben lived up to his reputation as a helmsman, and that the fears that foils would negate the skills of match racing were unfounded. I think they may also have been lucky with the wind strength and a windshift at the start of one race (but they may have anticipated that). If they can win in lighter winds that would be cracking.
Amazing. This could be an interesting race then.. Ben dominating in the starting sequencing is always impressive, the tactics are there, now they have the boat. We will see...
good to hear that the protest by the Italians on the outhaul on Rita has no punishment, but does need to be resolved. https://www.livesaildie.com/breaking-news-luna-rossa-prada-pirelli-protests-ineos-team-uk/
Not sure what the final outcome of the protest on the Italian boat is regarding the use of their running backstays which resulted in Prada using the running backstay in the racing today rather than leaving it off like they did before Christmas.
understand that they changed the mast, main, jib, rudder, elevator on the rudder, and how they control the foils. I suspect they changed the angle of attack of the main foils and some alterations to the foils themselves, as well as computer systems which control them.
But, as Trigger would say, it is still the same boat... 😀
good to hear that the protest by the Italians on the outhaul on Rita has no punishment, but does need to be resolved.
It's probably minor going on the fact that the boat measured fine before the event.
Having just watched the races (with t a big grin on my face) what impressed me most was the seemingly very stable and low ride height that they never had before and the fact that they were using a smaller jib than either of the other boats - this means they've got more power to come when they need it.
They knew they were down on power as the new rig has been in for about 2 weeks, so it was under construction probably at the end of November.
On the first tack on the second race they were higher and faster than LR - and when Ken Read (who I lived and raced with in '85.... did I mention that? 😉 ) says ".... Wow - that's impressive" it actually means something!!
Don't go thinking it was 'windy' - most of the time the breeze they were sailing in was only about 13 knots with a few extra in the top right hand corner.
Other thing I noticed was that the foils no longer hold water and are lacking the big visible trim tab that was there pre-xmas.
TBH it looks like a rocket ship now. That combined with the fact that Ben and Giles Scott are both good yachters (I would have actually put Giles as being the better Finn sailor at the end - but that may be an age thing and he's a bit taller and heavier than BA) makes for a potent combination.
Time will tell but I think ALL the other teams will be pretty concerned at the moment.
So it appears that Ben was sandbagging, or at least knew that certain upgrades were coming which made the jigsaw puzzle work and wernt maybe as concerned as the press were trying to making out. I hope they haven't blinked too early and the others still can step on the gas more but later.
I doubt they were sandbagging or, if they were, it wasn't by much. Don't forget that they have sponsors to keep happy and deliberately looking crap isn't a good look.
But they obviously knew that the new rig was coming but uncertain of how much improvement it would bring.
Foils and controlling system is a big one. More power from the rig obvs helps get out of the water but they're really slick now and that's because the boat is more controllable than it was before.
This is a combination of foil efficiency, control hardware and software (I'm guessing it's partly software controlled).
A quiet, slick, boat is generally fast.
I have always had the impression that Ben Ainslie likes to be under pressure and come into a race as an underdog, or appearing so.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of performance in the previous series wasn't entirely unintentional.
He's an interesting character and I think I read somewhere years back that he's got psychopathic traits which is why he's so good at this.
That Luna Rossa Race felt like a proper match race. If Luna had won the start and controlled the course, outcome may have been different .
Hmm . Nz will be interesting match up.,
the fact that they were using a smaller jib than either of the other boats – this means they’ve got more power to come when they need it.
or could it be they had to use a smaller jib cos they would be "overpowered" by a bigger one and less in control? Obviously I know very little* about sailing a 75ft foiling monohull 🙂
* nothing
Nz will be interesting match up
that's a long way off
The smaller jib thing, everything is a trade off, bigger sails is more power but more drag so maybe slower overall. So they test and test and for each windspeed they will have a preferred option. So maybe ours in that windspeed is less sail area for faster boat speed/vmg. These boats are about as complex as we know how to make a boat, no longer a waterline length wins argument. Hopefully many more days like that however...
How are people watching it?
Youtube
So maybe ours in that windspeed is less sail area for faster boat speed/vmg.
Absolutely - but the having low drag and the best VMG is pointless if you can't get out of the water.
The smaller jib thing, everything is a trade off, bigger sails is more power but more drag so maybe slower overall. So they test and test and for each windspeed they will have a preferred option. So maybe ours in that windspeed is less sail area for faster boat speed/vmg. These boats are about as complex as we know how to make a boat, no longer a waterline length wins argument. Hopefully many more days like that however…
Interesting thing with the F1 connection. The way they work now is they gather data in Friday practice sessions, send that data back to HQ and run simulators overnight to decide on car setup, tyre strategies, etc. They have to deal with problems like tyres that are too fragile to last for even a single flat out lap, so they have to model how hard to push through different sections of their qualifying laps, plus predicting track temperatures. The Friday practice times are a pretty poor guide to Saturday qualifying and Sunday race pace.
With AC boats, being able to model ideal boat setup for different weather conditions would be analogous. How you go in practice races doesn't matter, all you're doing is gathering data for when it matters. It could be that the results were just getting lucky with conditions that suited the boat, but it's very reminiscent of Lewis Hamilton often looking off the pace on Friday, but nailing it when it counts. I guess we'll know for sure in a few weeks.
That was tense! 2 minutes before out of time. Still fast in light winds!
Wahoo. That'll do.