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Labour in scotland lost the voters due to their behaviour once they lost power at holyrood and by Murphy sharing a platform with tories during the independence referendum.
this was then compounded by the fact of the tory / labour non agression pact at the last GE where we saw labour candidates cheering tory wins!
Labour in scotland lost the voters due to their behaviour once they lost power at holyrood and by Murphy sharing a platform with tories during the independence referendum.
This only cemented it, they were dwindling long before Murphy started his usual drivel.
I’m as hypocritical/contradictory as anyone, I’d vote SNP in Scotland, even if I was in Swinson’s seat, even though I’d like to see lots more LibDem MPs and a few Green MPs down here, and I’m voting Labour to try and unseat our awful Conservative MP.
🤷🏻♂️
Lib Dems just not competitive in enough seats to take the risk when Johnson so dominant in polls.
That depends on the seat in question. Where I live LibDems are the only credible opposition and have held the seat before.
Voting anti tory is the critical thing for anyone with progressive views. In my constituency the tories have a very slim chance of winning and I don't really care if its an SNP or labour mp as I dislike both candidates but they will do the same thing as regards a labour government and brexit
Slowoldman well in that case you vote for the party most likely to stop the tories. If its the lib dems hold your nose and vote for them
I don't need to hold my nose.
Jo Swinson defending the indefensible this morning. Does she even realise how slippery and dishonest she comes across as? It's no wonder their poll ratings are sliding. Add that to the fact that many lib dem grassroots activists and supporters despise her mollycoddling of centrist tories she's on very thin ice.
https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1190952807756632069?s=20
her mollycoddling of centrist tories
Well, if that means the LibDems are focussed on winning over past Conservative supporters and voters, and results in the LibDems taking seats off of Johnson’s party, and perhaps a few of the independent Tories MPs who stand against Johnson keeping their seats rather than them going to Conservative Brexit Party challengers, that sounds good to me. Reducing Johnson’s seat count should be everyone’s priority right now.
Johnson can’t be defeated without taking votes and seats away from his party.
In my constituency they're using the same "anyone but the SNP" argument which Labour used to hand the Tories 13 seats last time. ie, the entire Tory/DUP majority. And they still think they did well, because they gained 3% of the vote which the madness of FPTP turned into 6 seats.
If stopping brexit is the goal as they say then the SNP votes are going to be at least as important as the lib dems and might easily be more important (since there's every chance they'll hold more seats). And if you're worried about independence, stopping brexit stops the SNP's current push dead. This is simple stuff, and yet they're throwing it all away in an attempt to win a couple of seats.
Reducing Johnson’s seat count should be everyone’s priority right now.
Is that what she's doing here?
https://twitter.com/rosagilbert/status/1190291744530800641?s=20
ex-Tories Shirley?
One has joined the LibDems (Sandbach). And this is what we need… Tory MPs, voters and supporters abandoning the party… and realistically very few will jump straight to Labour in its current form… so LibDems need to grab those people (for all our sakes).
LibDems are standing aside to allow Greens, PC and independent ex-Conservatives a clean run at Tory seats. Are Labour doing the same? Anywhere? If not, why do they expect other parties to not campaign to beat them in seats they feel they could win. This is the Labour refrain “don’t fight against us, fight the Tories… oh, by the way, we’re fighting you at every opportunity”.
The only party offering and able to provide a second referendum. If you’re a remainer, the simple fact is that a labour govt is the only route to stopping brexit.
Horseshit
If Labour has said something as clear and definite as that it's been kept very low key. Even their own front bench aren't aware of it.
I suspect it's a case of optimistically reading between the lines by fans of the Corb, rather than policy
NOpe - its clear policy and a clear statement
Second ref on any deal. If labour can they will try to negotiate a better deal but it will still be subject to a referendum
You’re totally deluded if you think that Farage is in this for anything other than
Which candidate is not in it for
themselves? Help me choose
There are plenty, many of whom are useless, though. I'd place Corbyn in this category - I think he really believes in what he's doing, even though much of it would never work.
JP
So now that Boris has taken hard brexit off the table does that change the math? If this is genuinely a Brexit election should it? Given that post referendum polls showed the leavers 1st concern was immigration levels and that was remainders 2nd biggest concern, will no deal drive leavers to Farage?
Done of the polling seems to show people are more concerned with non-brexit stuff, like the NHS. If that's true why is Tories support so high, since they've done their damnedest to destroy it through austerity?
He has not taken a hard Brexit off the table at all. His "deal" is merely a withdrawal agreement and still leaves the hard brexit or "no deal" as more than a possibility
Why is tory support so high? When yo have control of almost all the media its easy to boost support for your party. Its about propaganda.
no deal” as more than a possibility
ccording to media reports, the Manifesto says a no deal brexit is no longer a possibility.
The Tories don't own the pollsters afaik and voting intention is heavily favouring them going in.
Why are the Tory’s ratings so high?
A lot of the English electorate seem to have a terrible cap-doffing attitude. They seem to assume that going to Eton and Oxford and the ability to use big words in a plummy accent denotes some kind of competence, whereas even a cursory glance at the last ten years of ineptitude and chaos prove the opposite
This government has also been extremely lucky in it’s (useless) opposition. Just ask anyone who listened to Dianne Abbots car crash of an interview on the Today programme last week
Just pulling up an objectively 'car-crash' interview doesn't make them a useless opposition.
Far from.
I think it's more the fact that the tact of mainstream interviewing and lack of proper journalism doesn't really do anything other than force politicians into polarised scenarios. This then gets repeated scant of facts as it tumbles out of proportion and often into forced contradiction (The news is often guilty of encouraging drama and conflict for ratings I believe.)
For instance:
Sophie Ridge's 'infamous' interview with Corbyn - where is he asked to condemn the IRA (you know the murderers we don't like) - 5/6 times. He clearly says "I condemn the loyalists and the IRA" - in the film. But the majority of the MSM reported the interview as he refused to condemn them. This then gets repeated over and over until the public think it's true.
That's not journalism in any way shape or form. It's flat out lies.
Truth:
Then for instance how the potential policy of integrating Independent schools was reported as banning/shutting/seizing independent schools. Same with the seizing of property (houses) - I can't find anything to support this other than Council's having the power to charge higher Council Tax to houses left empty for a long time. Etc.
So whilst MPs do cock up in interviews it's actually the echo chamber that tends to move away from the facts of the interview/policy/personality that causes the problem.
I'm not saying they don't have problems (some people just aren't great with media training) but it's also worth getting beneath the veneer rather than using an interview as a yard stick.
(I pulled the Telegraph interview from my post - I decided I don't want to give it attention.)
Cromolly - its the fact the tories and their friends own most of the UK media or have it so cowed ( the BBC) that they repeat the propaganda.
Its a relentless push of propaganda like that bit from the Telegraph that makes folk vote tory. Just look how many folk on here believe the lies about labour?
tjagain
Member
Why is tory support so high? When yo have control of almost all the media its easy to boost support for your party. Its about propaganda.
I don't think Tory support is anything like the polls suggest.
This said, the reason the Tories are not doing worse is because many swing voters think that Corbyn would be a disaster. I really don't want a Tory government, as I'm a staunch remainer, but, as a business owner I have real worries about the sort of mad stuff that a Momentum-driven Labour government would implement. There are lots of people like me who have similar worries.
JP
Cromolly - no deal is still a possibility as Johnson will not rule it out and insists that the transition period wuill not be extended - but there is not enough time to make a deal in the time left on the transition period. so no deal it is.
JP
Momenteum does not drive labour - thats one of the tory press lies
What sort of thing are you afraid of? I bet its again tory lies
I completely accept that the Murdoch effect is a real thing - that if you get his backing through the media, you are 8/10ths of the way in. Plus Corbyn is a Marmite leader.
There is a large block of older, private pension, house owners from when houses were affordable, who are sitting fairly pretty and who will vote Tory despite the fact that the Tories have gutted the NHS, are threatening the supply of Nurses and Attendant care worker s through immigration cuts.
The very thing those older voters use in much higher proportions than anyone else. So the turkeys are voting for Christmas. It makes no sense.
Plus young people are slowly but surely going to become the largest single voting demographic, taking over from pensioners and I can't see them going Tory, after everything they've done to them. Yet they look to be going for a majority.
Polls also show Brexit is bit the biggest feature of the GE for voters and yet the Tories lead.
no deal is still a possibility as Johnson will not rule it out
While BoJo doesn't even have a passing relationship with the truth and Manifestos arent truly binding, he has apparently stated in it that there will be no no deal brexit under the Tories.
JP
Momenteum does not drive labour – thats one of the tory press lies
What sort of thing are you afraid of? I bet its again tory lies
OK - let's give you a couple (there are plenty): my wife is the registrar of an independent school. Labour have already said that they plan to make life hard for this type of school. Regardless of how far they take this, with the exception of a few of the more famous schools, most public schools aren't rolling in money, and even small changes, such as those to their charitable status, would have disastrous consequences.
Labour also plans to raise corporation tax significantly, which is moronic. Most small businesses are not rolling in money, and suddenly having to give an extra 7% to HMRC could easily make them non-viable.
JP
Labour have already said that they plan to make life hard for independent school. Regardless of how far they take this, with the exception of a few of the more famous schools, most public schools aren’t rolling in money, and even small changes, such as those to their charitable status, would have disastrous consequences.
In what way? Will there be large groups of kids with no schools to go to, or will those schools be government funded? If the "charities" behind schools can pay grotesque amounts to the people running them while doing the bare minimum and sometimes not even that to qualify as a charity, except on paper, is putting them out of business such a bad thing? Let's at least agree that under the Tories schools have become commodities and made profits in various ways for the people operating them and that that is a bad thing for education.
On the independent schools - its high time they paid their way - all they have to do if costs increase and they lose their mostly undeserved charitable status is to put the fees up. I would also make them pay the government for the training of the teachers they take out of the general pool
corporation tax? IIRC they did state there would be transitional help for small businesses - and of course staying in the EU will be a huge boon for small businesses.
of course staying in the EU will be a huge boon for small businesses
True. Is that Labour policy now?
Just has my first red leaflet through the door, and it doesn’t mention the EU or Brexit once.
Once again. Labour policy is a second referendum in all cases. If they have the opportunity they will seek a deal with a much closer relationship with the EU and put that to a referendum.
So, it’s not Labour policy to stay in the EU, despite that being a “boon for small businesses”?
I mean, I’m voting Labour, but what are they really offering to win over the small business owner, and their employees, worried about rising taxes (which I support and think are necessary) under a Labour government? Throwing them a bigger bone as regards staying in the EU would be welcome, wouldn’t it.
Here’s a question
If the Brexit Party is essentially not a political party, but a business, and now the man-frog isn’t standing himself but is more a CEO, do the rules around election expenditure etc apply to him?
Or can he just go out there and say what he likes, without proper legal scrutiny, like they did in the referendum as he wasn’t heading the official leave campaign?
Looks like they could be an absolute nightmare for the Tory’s. Having Farage out there banging on and on about ‘Boris’s surrender bill’
There’s a certain delicious irony in Dom and Dommer, having used Farage and Banks and co as unofficial outriders during the referendum campaign, now being on the receiving end of their same dodgy practices
jjprestidge
Member
Labour also plans to raise corporation tax significantly, which is moronic. Most small businesses are not rolling in money
Most small businesses don't pay corporation tax
According to media reports, the Manifesto says a no deal brexit is no longer a possibility.
Are manifestos published yet?
tjagain
Member
On the independent schools – its high time they paid their way – all they have to do if costs increase and they lose their mostly undeserved charitable status is to put the fees up. I would also make them pay the government for the training of the teachers they take out of the general pool
corporation tax? IIRC they did state there would be transitional help for small businesses – and of course staying in the EU will be a huge boon for small businesses.
Sorry, but your answers show complete ignorance about the financial implications of both of these policies.
I really don't think you have any understanding of how independent schools operate. They can't simply increase their fees because they will experience significantly decreased demand. Most independent schools aren't busting at the seams with billionaire's kids; the majority of students are from relatively modest backgrounds, so even small fee increases would result in many parents transferring their kids to the state sector. I think that you and the other class warriors on here are conflating Eton and the sector.
As for corporation tax, your reply is a complete joke. I don't want some pathetic transition help, followed by a massive hike in what I'm paying in corp tax - I want an environment that encourages entrepreneurs, not discourages them.
This is the first time in my 27 years of voting that I will not even consider voting for Labour. I don't want that to be the case.
JP
Northwind
Subscriber
jjprestidge
Member
Labour also plans to raise corporation tax significantly, which is moronic. Most small businesses are not rolling in money
Most small businesses don’t pay corporation tax
Source? Otherwise I'm calling that out as BS (knowing what we pay in corp tax as a business with 3 employees).
JP
jjprestidge
Member
Labour also plans to raise corporation tax significantly, which is moronic. Most small businesses are not rolling in money
They are suggesting an increase to 26%
This is still lower than a decade ago.
It's still far lower than it was under Thatcher.
These really aren't radical policies.
In what way? Will there be large groups of kids with no schools to go to, or will those schools be government funded? If the “charities” behind schools can pay grotesque amounts to the people running them while doing the bare minimum and sometimes not even that to qualify as a charity, except on paper, is putting them out of business such a bad thing? Let’s at least agree that under the Tories schools have become commodities and made profits in various ways for the people operating them and that that is a bad thing for education.
Do you have any experience of the independent sector or are you just basing your opinions on what you read in the Socialist Worker?
JP
jjprestidge
Member
Labour also plans to raise corporation tax significantly, which is moronic. Most small businesses are not rolling in money
They are suggesting an increase to 26%
This is still lower than a decade ago.
It’s still far lower than it was under Thatcher.
These really aren’t radical policies.
Not radical but still moronic. Have you ever thought what would happen to profits if corporation tax were reduced?
JP
Not radical but still moronic. Have you ever thought what would happen to profits if corporation tax were reduced?
I don't need to imagine, i can remember back to 2005 when it was 30%
The sky did not fall.
Do you have any experience of the independent sector or are you just basing your opinions on what you read in the Socialist Worker?
Do you or are you basing everything on what your wife tells you based on her sample of ...... One?
jjprestidge
Member
Source? Otherwise I’m calling that out as BS (knowing what we pay in corp tax as a business with 3 employees).
Simple enough, 2/3ds of all small and medium sized businesses are sole traders or partnerships, neither pay corporation tax.
Have you ever thought what would happen to profits if corporation tax were reduced?
They would avoid being taxed, just as they are now. Low tax regimes reward low productivity sectors. They don't help anyone, no matter what corporate mouthpieces say.