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Like a referendum?
democracy is apparently having vote after vote until the result agrees with the goal of the leader.
very periclean.
Is that why we are having another vote in December then Rich?
Does any party ever ? Manifestos are statements of intent nothing more.
...and they didn't win the election, they just lost slightly less than the others.
All comes out in the wash though, parties that fail to fulfil their promises usually get punished in elections.
Like a referendum?
IMHO referendums mean nothing, it's an opinion poll. IMHO a manifesto means little but means more because a party is actually held to account over their manifesto in the following election. A referendum means nothing and has nobody with any responsibility for carrying it out. Added to that over Brexit there's a 50/50 split so a referendum is a coin flip - you could hold weekly referendums and get a different result according to what's in the news that day.
now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”.
GOOD. The Libdems are a rallying point for remainers, and the leave vote is split.
chewkw
The only chance to get Brexit is to “drain the swamp”, hopefully with No Deal, then start again. i.e. get out with No Deal then after that the politicians can argue amongst themselves until their face turn blue.
A stunning piece of political insight there. Please enlighten us further with your great and unmatched wisdom.
JP
I can't say I'm liking the idea of a general election, it's only fair that the Conservatives should own the mess of their own creation, it seems like it's passing the buck.
That said, I'm pretty sure there will be some musical chairs going on but it will ultimately result in a hung parliament so where does that leave us? We'll right back where we are now to be honest. Parliamentary paralysis.
I can only hope that the tories and Labour lose seats to the libs, SNP and the brexit party to further level the field.
If there's ever been an argument for PR it's this.
But.. Maybe it's not a bad thing, we won't have PR any time soon so it might force the children in Westminster to play nicely and share the toys, and form agreements, maybe not formal coalitions but sensible adult cooperation for the good of the country, something we seem to be lacking.
IMHO referendums mean nothing, it’s an opinion poll.
I'm sure this has been covered many times but it really isn't, not when it's presented as a clear choice with the main parties agreeing to implement the result.
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Only one party produced that leaflet, and they’ve long since got rid of those that produced it. There is a thread about all that.
GOOD. The Libdems are a rallying point for remainers, and the leave vote is split.
In a seat where the tories beat labour by 600 votes, 700 people voted green and 1900 lib dem. Yes of course, people should vote for the lib dems if they don't want brexit. If remainers vote for the lib dems in Calderdale and get Whittaker (one of the most odious tories in the country) then they deserve everything they get.
Been speaking to people locally today who I thought might hold their noses and vote Labour to change our MP… and for now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”. Hmm…
This is the danger..
Assuming you're in the same area as me,
The 2017 GE results were..
Tory 26790 votes
Labour 26181 votes
Lib. 1952 votes
now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”.
I would like to think this would be the case nationwide, but there are still many who think JC is the Messiah and will take us all to the promised land (possibly a hard Brexit antisemitic wasteland).
Interestingly in the latest poll, Cambridge looks tipped to return to Libdem after a brief stint being Labour. Zero chance of the Tories getting in.
If remainers vote for the lib dems in Calderdale and get Whittaker (one of the most odious tories in the country) then they deserve everything they get.
In those circumstances, why would people still not want to vote Labour? We need to think about that, and address it, rather than telling them that they ‘deserve what they get’. Perhaps slagging of those Labour MPs they might approve of might not be the best way of making Labour look broad enough to appeal to people concerned about some of the key people in the party that they don’t trust. Just an idea. The Labour vote needs to grow, fast.
This is the danger..
It is very worrying. We’ll see what’s planned to turn this around once the campaign proper starts. There’s lots to do. It’s going to require something ingenious now… no time for a long slow process of winning back the trust of voters… it needs something very convincing. No idea what.
GOOD. The Libdems are a rallying point for remainers, and the leave vote is split.
I don't mind Libdems winning the next GE because their agenda is very clear which is to revoke Brexit.
If they win then power to them but it will be interesting to see how they govern.
Only one party produced that leaflet, and they’ve long since got rid of those that produced it
Yes a Conservative government which we still have, and one that has never considered the referendum an opinion poll. Neither has the Labour party. This is the only point I'm trying to make on this.
Negotiating Brexit
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
2017 labour manifesto.
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/
In those circumstances, why would people still not want to vote Labour?
I dunno, stupidity?
Seriously though, stop overthinking it. People will vote as they mostly always do. Some will think about it, the remainers among them have a very simple decision, so it shouldn't be hard. If they vote against their interests then they'll get what they vote for. That's the way this works.
Now, on another subject, there's already a theme developing in this campaign. The tories and libdems are talking about brexit, labour are talking about the economy, health, schools and other things people have always cared about. This will come down to how obsessed/interested/bothered people are about brexit. I think that could be good for labour.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
Take this to the other thread and try and ask people to try and make sense of that sentence there. It has so many possible meanings it could eat this thread.
People will vote as they mostly always do.
Wakey wakey!
Labour 2017 voters deserted them for other parties in the 2019 elections so far.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
#Hashtag bus facts.
That's why Labour are untrustworthy, you can't brexit and put the national interest first.
Two diametrically opposed statements in the same sentence.
Spun up like some fairground candyfloss.
Now, on another subject, there’s already a theme developing in this campaign. The tories and libdems are talking about brexit, labour are talking about the economy, health, schools and other things people have always cared about. This will come down to how obsessed/interested/bothered people are about brexit. I think that could be good for labour.
How much non brexit legislation have the Tories or through in the last 3.5 years?
How much non brexit legislation will any government get through over the next decade as we try to negotiate the far trickier & more complex future relationship ?
Labour 2017 voters deserted them for other parties in the 2019 elections so far.
Are you seriously expecting people to vote the same way in a general election as the euros? When have they ever done that before? I'm not saying it won't happen, but it would be pretty stupid for labour to base a campaign on that when it's never happened before.
And so it begins
Quite a slick video
I'm seeing youth vote
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1189299448947585026
The tories and libdems are talking about brexit, labour are talking about the economy, health, schools and other things
Yup, ignoring the issue that currently eclipses all others is not really a recipe for electoral success. Voters are well aware than Leaving/Remaining will have far more of an impact on "economy, health, schools and other things" than any other factor over a far long period of time.
This will come down to how obsessed/interested/bothered people are about brexit.
We already know that. We've been polarised and it's the biggest issue by a country mile. It's such a monster issue normal electoral predictions may no longer work.
you can’t brexit and put the national interest first.
Two diametrically opposed statements in the same sentence.
It makes sense if you accept the referendum result and brexit as a given. You then negotiate to give the country the best possible outcome within those parameters.
But Kelvin is right, this is drifting away from the election thread into the brexit thread.
but it would be pretty stupid for labour to base a campaign on that when it’s never happened before.
If the Labour campaign isn’t trying to win back voters who switched to other parties at the local and European elections this year, it’s already over.
I’m seeing youth vote
Because what the kids really want is a coin flip in which heads is Brexit. 😀
But Kelvin is right, this is drifting away from the election thread into the brexit thread.
Fair point, but all current political threads come down to Brexit - you certainly can't discuss the election without discussing the key issue.
This is why a general election is a bad idea, there's only one, dominant issue at the moment, we've not had a functional government for about 3 years now.
The general election will be voted on a for or against brexit basis.
And we'll still probably have a hung parliament so back to square one.
Pretty much what Phillips and Lucas said in parliament today. Watch their clips if you get a chance.
Phillips had the best line of the day about it too
we’ve not had a functional government for about 3 years now.
Which is why a gen election is essential. ...and it's worse than that, Cameron had a tiny majority, not enough to sensibly govern. He couldn't do anything remotely controversial. When Major had a similar majority the media talked about it as though it was a disaster and it was. So we live in an era where more popular small parties mean low chances of anyone winning an outright majority.
The general election will be voted on a for or against brexit basis.
Good, it's the biggest issue, and it needs a decision and someone responsible for carrying that decision out.
And we’ll still probably have a hung parliament so back to square one.
That's the risk, but if parliament can't come to a conclusion all you can do is hold elections until someone wins. Certainly a government with a -43 majority needs to be immediately kicked out.
Is that why we are having another vote in December then Rich?
yes, as it has the stated goal of returning a parliment to deliver brexit.
three GEs in the timecourse of a single parliment to confirm the result of a single referendum.
“Confirm”… what does that mean in this context?
“Confirm”… what does that mean in this context?
the mechanisms of a representative parlimentary democracy applying scrutiny to the outcome of a binary vote.
it has the stated goal of returning a parliment to deliver brexit
Who or what has that stated goal? The parliament returned is quite likely to either fail to deliver Brexit, or choose not to even bother trying and/or to ask us in a referendum if it’s what we really want the next 10 years to be all about.
Who or what has that stated goal?
the current Prime Minister; blonde chap, full of shit.
Good job there are other options.
Good job there are other options.
name them?
Another prolonged length of uncertainty. A general election .. then possibly another referendum about leaving/staying in the EU.
And if Leave get another slim win .. we get another three years of the same.
And if Remain win .. its the Leavers turn to cry about the result.
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce. And as such I fully expect extreme views and political opinion to flourish as a result.
Its gonna be a rough ride for the foreseeable future from now on.
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
Not sure I agree with this? Peoples views are split roughly equally, the results of the last GE gave us a parliament that roughly reflects this split.
Democracy seems to have worked, the issues are elsewhere.
First tactical voting site I've seen for this election
Gina Millers European one from earlier in the year was a bit nicer, but at least it's something to start sharing with people.
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
How so?
Just checked the odds at the bookies.
Overall majority:
Conservatives 1.8/1
No overall majority 2/1
Labour 17/1
Lib Dems 67/1
Most seats:
Conservatives 1.1/1
Labour 6/1
Lib Dems 21/1
That tactical voting plan is mainly just vote Labour!
Of course.
🙂
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
i'd say the opposite. I think that recently our democracy looks in pretty good shape in the way parliament has held an arrogant and anti-democratic executive to account and stopped it just doing what the hell it likes.
The problem is the electorate were given a binary yes/no choice to an incredibley complex issue and lied to that it was easy. When the result was virtualy 50/50 that incredibley complex issue became even less deliverable.
What we're in the middle of is a perfect political storm. Anyone offering easy answers is a liar. Anyone believing there are easy answers is an idiot
I don't understand the 'Tactical Vote' page. Is that Labour's masterplan? "Vote for us, go on, please?"