matt_outandabout
Six to ten lives saved and 1000-2000 people saved from injury a year in Wales alone.
So was that their election manifesto? Six to ten lives saved per year for a blanket 20mph speed limit?
Thought not because they know full well they wouldn't have been elected on that basis.
Are you really encouraging violence against a politician? Wow.
I'm saying let those he betrayed decide...actions and lies have consequences.
molgrips
Also, it’s not necessarily the case that everyone opposes the limits. I have found two polls, one suggesting the public support it and one suggesting they don’t.
So have a referendum with the facts laid out.
I suspect that the number who don’t support it will be pretty small in 10 years’ time, they are just grumpy pants right now.
So what.... its totally irrelevant if it isn't what people want now.
That is so deeply disturbing.. do you really mean people should be forced to accept something because you or someone superior to them has decided what's best for them?
The moaning about this is nuts. Northwind nails it in a post above. Prior to this motorists driving through towns and villages convenience has been prioritised over the quality of life, health and safety of those living in those towns and villages. <br />It happens here in our little town, the 30mph limit is too fast, motorists passing through really don’t seem to care about the folk who live here, we even have to have a policeman supporting the school crossing lady as a lot of the time when she steps out with her lollipop motorists don’t stop. If there’s been a queue then as soon as the traffic clears the lead foot often goes down and the limits are ignored. Pavements are less than 30” wide in some places and a lorry or bus at 30mph next to your kids on the pavement is horrific.
I’m a motorist as well as a pedestrian and cyclist. If my car journey is a little slower to make the lives of others safer, quieter and more enjoyable then to me that’s great. The statistics are pretty clear on accidents. If by some chance someone hits one of my kids then I’d much rather that be around 20mph than around 30mph. It works in France, why not here. <br /><br />
my mums village in wales has had the 20mph limit for years. Each time we visit now I don’t even notice the difference in the car but when we walk round the village, to the park with the kids etc it makes a massive difference. It’s like the roads are ours and cars are looking out for us, not the other way round. That’s what it used to be like I guess when the motor car turned up all those yrs ago. It’s just a shame we went all out for it with no thought for the consequences like we did until recently.
do you really mean people should be forced to accept something because you or someone superior to them has decided what’s best for them?
That is law, government policy etc,. works in a democracy. Last time I checked we are not in an anarchist state.
Example, proposal to make cigarettes illegal starting at specific age and then increasing. Was there a referendum on that or have the 'superior' people decided that is what is best for people.
You focus on the 6 to 10 deaths and ignore the 1000-2000 additional injuries that might not kill someone but could potentially be life changing through brain injury, paralysis and loss of limbs.
You are a classic case study in ignorance who thinks because 430k sign a petition they must be correct while ignoring evidence.
do you really mean people should be forced to accept something because you or someone superior to them has decided what’s best for them?
Someone in charge, yes. That's how societies work and have worked since the dawn of time. Why was there a 30mph limit? Why are kids not allowed to buy fags? Why am I not allowed to settle my disputes with violence? Why am I obliged to pay tax? Did we have a referendum on wether or not slavery should be illegal?
I’m saying 430,000 people on the petition shows this is not what people thought they voted for.
It'd be quite interesting to have accurate figures on where all of those 430k live and actually drive regularly. I see there's a map for where signatures came from but the location is self reported, so taking that with a large pinch of salt.
slowoldman
He’s got one job and that is to do the will of the electorate
Interesting point but given that in the UK a government is generally elected by a minority it is clearly not the case that the government acts to do the will of the electorate (or at least the majority of the electorate).
Clearly the system needs changing...
Essentially its a lot of the least unpopular wins give or take but that is then used by all parties to make empty promises and hide how they are going to fulfil the ones they want and pretend they have a mandate for something they deceived the electorate on.
This is fundamentally why I'm opposed to this 20mph limit... what matters is would people have voted if they had told them the details.
Kamakazie
Wishes of the electorate? They were voted in with this in their manifesto.
Was that part only available in Welsh? I don't see any mention of saving 6-10 lives a year by a blanket 20mph restriction
Either way he needs dragging out of the Synedd and handing over to the masses he betrayed.
All this over the trivial matter of a small reduction in speed limits on some roads, to the benefit of the vast majority. Wow. Get some perspective and find something far more important to moan disproportionately* about.
* I know that doesn't really cover 'dragging out of the Synedd'
That is so deeply disturbing..
No it really is not.
As a11y says, you need to get some perspective. You really do need to stop twisting facts, cherry picking a few key lines or statistics and isolating them, and then using very aggressive and threatening language about politicians and the choices that the (silent) majority agree with. This is not a subject that is being led by lies - in fact the argument against it is on the lines of twisted facts, isolated quotes and misinformation wrapped up in aggression from a minority. Like your argument is.
At the end of the day, you disagree with the policy. Fine, I accept that.
But so many of us agree with that policy, including our political leaders in many places, and the facts support the decision. So you are p*ss*ng n the wind on this.
And if you want a political change, you too can vote in any election in the way you choose.
a blanket 20mph restriction
IT IS NOT A BLANKET RESTRICTION!
Get a grip.
The manifesto clearly stated
Make 20mph the default speed limit in residential areas …
The Welsh people have already spoken on the matter (as opposed to moaning on Facebook).
Dragging out? You need to get some perspective and stop legitimising the violence and hate speech pervading Uk politics recently.
Why am I obliged to pay tax
You’re not obliged to pay tax. If you can arrange your affairs to avoid having to pay it then that’s fine in law.
He’s got one job and that is to do the will of the electorate
Not even close. His one job is to get his party elected how ever he can at the election. Do you really think the last 13 years are the will of the electorate? No government in living memory has ever got 50%+1 of the vote. Our country’s electoral system is designed to ensure we always have minority governments. All parities are terrified of having a system that reflects the real views of the electorate. The Lib Dem’s maybe the exception but will ever have the opportunity to do anything about it
Large numbers (sometimes very large numbers) of people have opposed other very sensible policies*, that doesn't make those people right, it just means there were a lot of them.
We elect people to govern in our best interests**, not to 'do what we want', sometimes those two goals align, but sometimes for some people they don't. Their job as candidates is to convince us that they will act in our best interests, and 'what we want' can be a part of that.
*eg:
votes for women
seatbelt laws
drink driving laws
smoking laws
abolition of capital punishment
laws about sexuality
various covid related things
$many_others
**no comment on our current shower of excrement in central government, i'm talking about the principle of governance.
“So have a referendum with the facts laid out.”
I’m against letting the British public have a direct vote on anything after the “ Boaty McBoatface” fiasco. That proved we can’t be trusted.
Have to say I agree 100% with Steve: 20mph zones would be a disater.
As my hairline recedes, and younger women no longer look at me, I went out and got the fastest production-line BMW in history on finance - 0-60mph in 2.9 seconds. It's just an absolute disgrace and affront to my freedom of self-expression that I can't impress my flailing alphahood onto random members of the public because driving such a powerful vehicle at such a low speed will make the whole thing look absurd and ridiculous.
Truly, the amount of dummies spat and toys thrown over such a trivial change is a sight to behold.
Anyone on the fence on this issue, just needs to look at the runners and riders on either side of the debate.
Sorry, in your luxury beliefs, driving 10mph slower might be trivial, but in my world IT'S EVERYTHING because my vehicle is my emotional castle and its the primary way I express my self-worth because inside is a vaccume which desperately needs to be filled, and NOT ONLY THAT but this change, though be it a relatively minor reduction to speed limits, may seem on the surface sensible but in actual fact conceals a latent alteration to the entire order of society, which is troubling and threatening to my position.
NEVER FORGET: today's 20mph zones are tomorrow's Gulags for The Great British Motorist.
kilo
The manifesto clearly stated
Make 20mph the default speed limit in residential areas …
So show me the link and when they said it's to save 6-10 lives per year...
I find it hard to believe any significant number of people voted for them knowing that
matt_outandabout
At the end of the day, you disagree with the policy. Fine, I accept that.
Nope I disagree with the way it was put through by deception.
I'm against the smug slimy git just saying he refuses to review it ... the whole "LOL you voted for it"
Having scum like that in a position of power makes me sick to my stomach.
I suspect they did consider it.
But decided you and the others who signed it were wrong.
So no debate.
What makes you think I signed it? What makes me sick is your attitude that these scum get to decide what everyone else has to do... to dismiss a huge number of the electorate and laugh in their faces.
Don't worry, my kid leaves home in 5 years and I'll be checking out permanently .
Nope I disagree with the way it was put through by deception.
So you are in agreement with the policy then? There is no point reversing a policy you agree with just because you feel upset about the process.
I agree with you about the poor calibre of the politicians we seem to have in much of the UK - particularly Westminster.
However I do not like language that many of us use around politicians - we default very quickly to aggressive and hyperbolic terms about their behaviour. See the Rishi! Sunak! or Brexit threads as a good example of many using a similar approach and language.
In this case though the Welsh government (because there is a Senedd who decided this, not one person) was clear in the election about introducing this. It has been discussed for years, and in other areas of the UK 20mph are creeping in, and so it is not 'sudden' or 'hidden' or deceitful.
What makes me sick is your attitude that these scum get to decide what everyone else has to do… to dismiss a huge number of the electorate and laugh in their faces.
You seem to be quite worked up about an exchange of views on the internet.
Our elected Parliments do make decisions for us. That is what I elected them to do. On any given subject they will face those who disagree. Fine, that is the process we have in the UK.
I am going to duck out now - I have said my piece and I do not think I need to change your mind, or continue an argument on the internet.
If a slightly lower speed limit is a source of misery, life is going very well for you.
I'm against the death penalty but **** me the way they sneaked in its abolition. ****s!
Nope I disagree with the way it was put through by deception.
I’m against the smug slimy git just saying he refuses to review it … the whole “LOL you voted for it”
But it was voted through with cross-party agreement after being in the manifesto for the elections they won with 60% of the vote.
The leader of the Welsh Tories didn't bother to vote (after appearing with 20 Is Plenty campaigners a year or two ago).
What deception are you talking about? Your ignorance of the issue, discussions and voting doesn't mean there was deception.
Your ranting about people telling you what to do is hilarious...are you new to the planet?
@stevextc, you really are a knuckle-dragger aren't you:
So show me the link and when they said it’s to save 6-10 lives per year…
They didn't. Why do they have to?
They said this, very explicitly in the 2019 manifesto:
The Welsh Labour government will make 20mph the default speed limit for residential areas with limited exceptions where a case can be made
And they've delivered on that manifesto promise. Job done. Pat on the back for not lying.
End of discussion tbh. I'm not sure if they're going to be debating it or not (if I was them I wouldn't bother - they delivered a manifesto promise, some people whined, it'll die down).
And living here, people I talk to love it. Not one person has expressed an opinion otherwise. Towns are nicer to walk around. Traffic noise is quieter. I, like you, don't really give that much of a stuff that it's safer (it is though - lots safer, a few deaths but a massive decrease in serious injury (which is a big win)). It's the other stuff that makes it worth it.
Prioritising pedestrians over cars for practically zero cost.
I mean. There's so many things to get wound up about. But then the professionally offended always find something eh?
Meanwhile, elsewhere in Wales, @51.9318555,-4.8252236,3a,75y,34.48h,73.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1_FS7x4TfKmMl2A35UJTlQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu">this glorious road is still 60mph.
Sad and desperate attempts to sway a few votes their way.
They know they are going to lose the next election, and are now in damage limitation mode.
It's telling that a fairly new bypass (the A555) near home has a constant speed limit of 50 mph on all the 'new' bits. The old bits are still 60. I drive on this particular road about once a fortnight, mostly getting passed by a certain type of car (Chelsea tractors, fast racing car types) by at least 10 mph more. These are the very cars that cause more damage, more noise, more pollution and maintenance issues. What I'm trying to say is it's probably the drivers of these types of vehicles that won't want a 20 mph in England (yes it's a sweeping generalisation, but it's what I witness).
Unfortunately one of the quiet routes out of Manchester has been made a lot less nice to ride on as some the people who want to use this road are impatient and aggressive.
It's not unusual to be on the receiving end of this driving as they rush to speed down the A555. Every bypass built can put pressure on other places on the road network as traffic levels rise.
The stretch of the A6 where the A555 joins it and High Lane is truly terrifying as the huge truck pass you.
I just walked along a local 30 section that links housing areas and 2 supermarkets, it has a narrow pavement in places, there's a bus stop halfway along it and school kids walk along it regularly. The flashing speed light told me that 80% of the cars were exceeding the speed limit. My pretty-good sense of speed told me a couple of the large SUVs were doing more like 45.
Any politician or council promoting 20mph zones in urban areas has my support. Add a few cameras or speed-activated stop lights while you're at it and you get even more support.
sorry wrong thread 🙂
Thoroughly. Parking fines need to be ramped up dramatically.
That Tesla would be prime for the full Bittersweet Symphony treatment incidentally - I wonder how strong that bonnet is.
The Guardian article showed similar driver behaviour to Manchester.
It's time to get a grip not arse lick car drivers for votes. We need to change the narrative.
