Screen shots of the document now added to the end of the story, so you can read it for yourselves!
To me they have just completely complicated the **** out of it. Totally confused what they are trying to achieve
@stwhannah some of those pages - especially team entry requirements - make my brain hurt!
So there are:
Elite teams who have an entry for the season
Wild Card teams - who qualify based on points, athlete profiles and other criteria
Invited teams to each round - scored similar to wild Card
That makes no sense what so ever......
So no individual rider entries or have I missed that?
Sure I’ve read that every round of the DH and Enduro world cups will be in Europe
Updating my previous post on this.. looks like the WOM list was missing page 2 of the (draft) calendar which adds a further 4 stops (3 of which are indicated as outside Europe) - which I think makes a total of 14 World Cup DH races.
Hey guys, quick explanation as to why we took the pod down for a bit...
I want to give everyone on the pod a platform to speak candidly. With this episode we were up against it, we only recorded on Friday morning & I knew Singletrack were publishing on Friday evening, so we rushed it out & Jack, Emilie & Joe didn’t get a chance to listen back to it until it was live. On reflection there were a couple of bits where people wished they’d phrased things differently. I was racing at the time in a field in Wales & didn’t have the files with me to re-edit (or any decent internet) so Hannah (at my request) took it down for a bit, but I can confirm there were no big revelations removed.
Thanks for the positive comments on this one, really glad everyone seems to be enjoying it. The Vali episode drops on Thursday…
To me they have just completely complicated the **** out of it. Totally confused what they are trying to achieve
Completely disagree. You might not like what they are looking to do, but this document at least clearly sets out a direction for things. Teams can get on board with it or make a proper decision to sack it off.
Teams thing aligns with other UCI events, particularly road. Teams numbers limits riders which allows them to be more focussed over a weekend, maybe more practice time, cover qualis more effectively.
Bike types for category sets course design expectations.
DH course length of 3 mins should allow top to bottom coverage for each rider in finals.
IF it works it makes a product that is more marketable outside the mtb industry which is probably necessary for sustainability (given the bike industry is on its arse) and to allow the top end riders to make a sensible living. If is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence but it is a position that can be debated rather than a mire of rumours that we've had up to now.
I know nish about DH/Enduro but Pidcock when designing that Pinarello limited it to 100mm and said thats all you need for these XC course. Didn't one of the female XC racers comment on how this is idea of the course being more technical was overhyped ?
So no individual rider entries or have I missed that?
When did an individual rider with no team affiliations, whether factory team or non factory team, last feature in the top 30 in DH men’s or Ladies?
what are the real world probability of an individual not being on a team who is good enough to stand a credible chance of making the final for a whole series. Don’t forget you could have a team of 1 or 2 riders as per ineos
So no individual rider entries or have I missed that?
Certainly is in Juniors. Riders ranked within the top 100 in UCI ranking are allowed. How to score the points for that, well that's a whole new kettle of worms to open right there. Obviously riders ranked this season i expect will take some sort of points through to next, but the Youth riders coming up into it, i don't know what events yet they'll enter to score the associated points.
It'll be interesting to see how they work that one out for the first year juniors, as none will have any UCI points or ranking to speak of. Our young aspiring rider is already making plans for a weekend in May, but she'll need to get the invite to wear one of those four national jerseys in order to be on the start list.
It’ll be interesting to see how they work that one out for the first year juniors, as none will have any UCI points or ranking to speak of. Our young aspiring rider is already making plans for a weekend in May, but she’ll need to get the invite to wear one of those four national jerseys in order to be on the start list
https://ucimtbworldseries.com/rankings/series/uci-dhi-world-cup/2024
Looking at the juniors list they've only got their points from racing WCs, so if you can't enter, then you can't have points. I can only assume that this will happen at some stage in some way, but like yourself i simply don't know.
Mine isn't at the place where he'll get a National Jersey, there's too many riders ahead of him for those. But we'l keep pushing, trying and working towards it. 🙂
When did an individual rider with no team affiliations, whether factory team or non factory team, last feature in the top 30 in DH men’s or Ladies?
In every race this season? Thibault Daprela, Kirk McDowell, Stefano Introzzi, Loris Revelli and Douglas Viera have all had one or more top 30 finals finish.
Exceptions to the rule, maybe.. but exceptions nonetheless.
It would be far too straight forward to only have one list of rankings, here's the other one! here
I have to ask, what was actually wrong with the whole thing when Red Bull, Free caster and even before it was broadcast? I never got the sense of any fundamental problems with the setup and structure.
All of this feels like Chris Ball has to do something to deliver on whatever he's promised WBD. For Red Bull it was advertising for them. Under the new setup they must find a way to monetise it to deliver the returns WBD expect. That means selling advertising space, whether that's on track or TV/social media adverts.
It's a sport that seemed to function perfectly well for a long time, that's now at real risk of being ruined by the pursuit of profit for WBD, and no doubt a fat bonus for Chris Ball.
I have to ask, what was actually wrong with the whole thing when Red Bull, Free caster and even before it was broadcast?
The riders want a decent salary. To get that the sport needs money.
Things move on, the world, the sports, everything.
People want professional level teams and riders, so someone needs to pay.
weeksy
The riders want a decent salary.
And who's going to give them that? Because it sure as **** ain't going to be WB or the UCI and all the teams are doing is paying out to be part of the show. WB and Chris Ball keep telling us they've invested heavily, but how much of that has been in setting up the broadcast vs on the actual sport and it's participants. The only visible changes have been the change to stick markers from tape and the addition of the stupid course pillows.
The riders would race anywhere on anything so long as it was timed and WB are exploiting that need to race to create a show and line their own pockets. If this change had happened organically over a number of years it would have been manageable but this change everything and hide it behind a paywall approach has p*ssed everyone right off. Fans, (most) riders and teams alike. The only person I've heard talk positively about it is Bruni and that's because he'd like to be paid like contemporaries in other sports.
There was definitely some room for improvement but this was too much too soon and it's alienated the natural fans and annoyed the participants. It's a good job the racing hasn't suffered and that there's a lot of content being generated in other channels.
Agree. Aren’t there are still rumours going about that the teams will have to pay to race…how this translates to more money for the riders I don’t know.
Also, Ball himself once rode in his boxers as a protest to the organises, kind of ironic given the absolute sh*r show lately.
The riders want a decent salary
Bernard Kerr seems to be doing ridiculously well. Have you seen his fleet of cars, toys and house?
Reece is ripping around in his Lotus.
Loris has a McLaren
Gwin is incredibly wealthy
I'm sure the lower riders aren't on huge money, but that's the same in any sport or industry. There's plenty of money being made
This^
Meant to say, the likes of Bernard (I mention Bernard as he’s by far the most outspoken) want reimbursement from WB etc as the footage is now behind a pay wall. The thought of WB pocketing (potentially) a lot of cash off the back of the riders who provide the entertainment understandably doesn’t sit well with a lot of the riders.
Trouble is I doubt that WB are going to be making a significant amount of money off the back of DH. Very few from the MTB community will admit to have signed up for a sub and they're going to need viewing figures to sell advertising. It just feels really ill conceived. How long before the exec. responsible loses confidence and it all falls down?
They're already realised what they've done.
They paid a ridiculous amount for GCN, then wrote the value down massively and sold it back to the original owners for a fraction of what they paid. Post sale back to the original owners, the GCN guys missed no opportunity to have a a dig at WBD in their videos
Listening to MUTN, I thought it was interesting that they categorised the current audience into two camps. Hardcore fans who will watch however they can and pay whatever they need to do so, and more casual fans who will watch if they can but won't change their plans to do so. The second group might be persuaded to pay but not if it seems like they are taking the piss.
I'm very much in the second group. I paid for GCN and enjoyed watching all the races they had available. No way am I paying for Discovery+. For one, WB seems like a shitty company and I don't want to give them my money. Two, I just don't want all the extra shite they want me to watch. Life is complicated enough already. Might sound counterintuitive like, 'Why can't you just ignore all the other stuff' but that's not the way my brain works. If I'm paying for something I feel like I have to get VFM out of it.
Now I use tiz-cycling and that's it.
WB know they've got the hardcore fans, regardless. The problem is they clearly don't give a shit about the second group which I would assume makes up the majority of the audience.
They seem to be working on the assumption that there is a huge audience out there looking for something to watch between Moto GP and football. And if they get DH on Eurosport in the right format then this audience will materialise.
Personally I'm not sure if it's that aspirational when the pinnacle of sporting achievement is being able to hold the attention of someone who is too lazy to reach for the remote (or even go outside and do something) between the stuff they actually want to watch.
And who’s going to give them that? Because it sure as **** ain’t going to be WB or the UCI
Of course, that's where the great exposure to TV rights and then sponsors come into play. Theoretically anyway. Whether any of the comes to fruition and plays out, I have no idea at all. However that seems to be the theory and logic in play.
I understand that your people like Kerr etc are earning well... but he's not just a rider and he is more of the exception than the rule in this. THere's of course some riders that earn enough, but plenty who are not.
If we then get into the discussion of "well they're getting paid to ride their bikes" as we always seem to, then yes they are, but car drivers, motogp, etc are also equally guilty of all this stuff.
A large chunk of riders in the WC paddock have to not only fund things for themselves but have to buy into a ride.... Whether they feel they get more out of it than they're having to pay is open to debate, but don't think for a second that all these people are getting everything for nothing and a large pile of cash on top of it...That's just not how it works.
And who’s going to give them that? Because it sure as **** ain’t going to be WB or the UCI and all the teams are doing is paying out to be part of the show.
Same in road racing. Teams pay to be part of TDF/Giro/Vuelta etc. Organisers provide a platform and broadcast to give exposure to the sponsors. Having races on somewhere like Red Bull tv isn’t going to increase viewership. Millions of people have sky subscriptions, which include Eurosport and Discovery+ as standard. That’s a lot of new viewers if you can get the broadcast format right. A two hour broadcast of 60 riders, where 40 of them have no chance of winning isn’t compelling viewing, even for me as a fan. I’ve never watched a full race. A shorter broadcast where anyone could potentially win is a much better prospect.
The real kick in the nuts for me is WB and Chris washing their hands of the feeder race series though. This is crucial to stop everything collapsing when the current crop of riders retire. Without it the rest of the plan doesn’t work long term. UCI should force them to run it, but that won’t happen.
Yeah that's what shocked me as well, you cant make all these fundamental changes to the WC series without at least consulting other race organisers to look at the viability of a feeder series. There is going to be a massive gap/shortfall in talent if these series' aren't ready to go once these changes are implemented. Pretty selfish and short sighted from Ball et all.
In EU the series in IXS already exists, but needs clarification as to how that factors into the overall scheme of things as currently it's not clear what the 'pathway' is. I believe there's a series in the US too but i get the impression there's contention there in terms of relationship with UCI.
Part of the theory is that this will bring people back into Nationals, if you look at this weekends race you had Brayton, Breedon, Walker as the main entrants, the rest (without being too harsh to them) are not full on WC level. Will the lack of ability to enter WCs mean that the other UK riders come back into Nationals.... well, that remains to be seen. I guess it may depend on whether UK Nationals (or French/US etc) give UCI ranking points to give the riders the ability to get back into WCs.
The real kick in the nuts for me is WB and Chris washing their hands of the feeder race series though.
Isn't this the "Continental Series" suggested in the document though. It's hardly 'washing its hands' if it's proposing a/the feeder system.
Isn’t this the “Continental Series” suggested in the document though. It’s hardly ‘washing its hands’ if it’s proposing a/the feeder system.
I think the document (and Ball in his interview) were more saying, 'Someone should create and run a Continental Series but not us.'
I'm not sure how many people are going to be banging on the doors to take on that job.
They're proposing that these series exist but when they talk about "we" what they mean is "you" as in someone else, they're going to let market forces and the wider DH race community sort that one out . . .
They don't "feel they should be involved" or some words that mean the same
How's a Continental series going to work anyway? 80% of World Cups are in Europe (mostly France) and most of the entrants too. This **** about 5 from each continent isn't even going to cover the UK each year let alone France and the other European countries.
Far too many changes too soon......
They needed to let it settle under their stewardship before making, what are drastic changes.
And while WBD are the rights holders/ Promoters of just the MTB World Cup, it is in their interests that the level below is healthy - otherwise, where are the next generation going to come from.
Look at motorsport; in F1; they have lower formulae on the programme, the WRC has a junior class, WEC has the Le Mans Cup races, etc
There has to be another lower category series away from the headline act running elsewhere......
I’m not sure how many people are going to be banging on the doors to take on that job
There's always going to be a steady stream of kids lining up to be the next DH winner. It's not the work of genius to see that the groups of people that will benefit the most from that are the Teams that get invited to take part in the world cup, and the national bodies interested in the next round of the Olympics. It shouldn't be beyond their wit to organise themselves accordingly, especially as the bones of a format has been handed to them on a plate.
I'm sure there's an opportunity but doubt it's worth the risk vs reward for the organiser on a "continental" scale.
nickc
I’m not sure how many people are going to be banging on the doors to take on that job
There’s always going to be a steady stream of kids lining up to be the next DH winner. It’s not the work of genius to see that the groups of people that will benefit the most from that are the Teams that get invited to take part in the world cup, and the national bodies interested in the next round of the Olympics. It shouldn’t be beyond their wit to organise themselves accordingly, especially as the bones of a format has been handed to them on a plate.
Yes there will "always"? be a bunch of youngsters that want to race DH, that genie's out of the bottle. Yes there is a possibility that the invited teams may, like in F1, be in a very privileged position to exploit that status and make money from sponsorship opportunities born from the fact that they're on TV 15+ weekends a year. But it's expensive to do on a truly global scale in a way that the bike industry probably can't support currently, certainly not outside the top 3 or 4 teams.
It's all running before we can walk right now
I'm not sure where you're going with the national bodies and the Olympics . . . .
I’m not sure where you’re going with the national bodies and the Olympics . . .
Becasue the TV rights cover XCC, and XCO as well as DH. There's multiple groups of folks who's interests are best served by making sure that they have a steady stream of percipients to take part in these events, from the people wanting to race, to governing bodies, to the Olympic and National bodies to the bike and component manufacturers and resorts and on and on and on, including the TV rights holders. If they can't get together to create a national 5-7 race series then honestly the whole stack of cards deserves to crumble.
Unfortunately, at an organisational and event level, those are all very separate events organised by separate organisers. It almost works at WC level but the logistics are ridiculous and the events are almost certainly better when DH and XC events are at different venues. At least the DH can be on a Sunday when that happens.
Oh and the national series already exist - it's this Continental layer that doesn't.
Can't remember where I saw it, but in some official documents earlier in the summer, wording was very specific concerning a UEC continental race series.
I'd also heard insinuations that several highly rated, well established national cup races in Europe, alongside some standalone events were going to get UEC banners. The En Roue Libre podcast with Chris Ball also touched on this.
I'm fully aware that we'll trip up somewhere at a race next year, be it admin or organisation, but I don't think it'll be the certain doom and unorganised chaos that some people envisage.
I guess that could work if discrete events at national level also became part of a wider continental series. Might squeeze entries somewhat mind and then you've got the same problem trickled down.
A continental series needs somebody to drive it, like World Cups have UCI and national series have BC or their own version.
I organised two "continental events" (iXS Cup Innerleithen 2010 and 2012) and the gap there was not helpful
It was made very clear by BC that we were second in line for anything after the British Downhill Series (event date selection being the most brutal example), nobody was advocating for us. We were sub-contractors, the iXS money went to the Swiss guys who had the contract we never saw any of it.
There is a different model to fund these things in Europe - local tourists boards will put in significant money - UK model is more scrabbling about for what government money you can find, entry fees and local sponsors.
Just my thoughts!
There has to be another lower category series away from the headline act running elsewhere
Well Chris Ball's organisation took over the Scottish Enduro Series then shelved it. They also took over organisation of the Macavalanche race and moved it from Glencoe to Nevis Range, without even having the courtesy to tell the Glencoe people that they wouldn't be having the race there anymore.
I wouldn't trust Chris Ball to run a bath.
In every race this season? Thibault Daprela, Kirk McDowell, Stefano Introzzi, Loris Revelli and Douglas Viera have all had one or more top 30 finals finish.
All of those riders are on teams with the exception of Daprela who got sacked by Canyon and hasn’t had another team want him since
kirk is on the norco team according to norco website
stefsno rides for Ridewill Bike Center Cimone team
loris was in canyon collective in 2023
A continental series needs somebody to drive it, like World Cups have UCI and national series have BC or their own version.
Im sure you’re right and one of the many challenges having feeder series into the main show. If the continental series gain uci status then BC a would be compelled to fall in line as it would be a governing body sanction series. It’s a big if I accept
"BC would be compelled to fall in line" LOL. Not with the threat by the National Series organiser to walk away if they didn't get first dibs. If event date allocation was taken off BC for a European series they might have a fighting chance.
