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I do wonder if best of two runs, Rampage style, would be a way of evening the odds when it comes to weather and stoppages and Minnaar’s exploding bicycles.
Yes it can, but it can also absolutely ruin the spectacle. Eg run 1 is dry, then it starts raining. No point in even racing, so you’ll now be compelling people to ride in poorer conditions for no reason
So much change this year, too much but these are my good and bad things.
Good:
Camera and drone work slightly better, the editing seems pretty good also.
Despite the trouble of this last race, it’s good to see a new, gnarly and natural track. Bring back Champery…
Struggling to think of anything else tbh.
Bad:
The semi’s format. Just have qualis and the race. It just seems too drawn out like this, plus the weather makes it much more likely to be an unfair race overall. If anything, cover the qualis and scrap this semi final business.
Commentary I don’t actually mind CG, he’s calmed down a bit now and at least he’s experienced and has enthusiasm, and with Gwin he was better. But that Ric guy, sorry but it’s just awful, the commentary equivalent of magnolia paint. Tries too hard but doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. I think a combo of CG and a guest someone from the sport who’s not riding ie Gwin, Wilson, Donahue, Gee, etc.. It would be more interesting at least.
Those stupid board things on the track, it’s not slalom skiing. Maybe they could work if they were more off the line but they’re not needed and obscure the track. Also prefer tape rather than these green sticks, maybe not all the way as there’s more wastage and hassle, but around the technical bits and corners. Could Finn have saved that crash this last race if he could see the boundary a bit better on his mega scrub? IANFI.
The virtual head to head graphic thing Redbull used to do, where you could see if a rider was making up ground, that was really good.
I’d love to see races on the other continents, even just once a year.
There’s loads of good stuff though too but more in the overall picture. The riders are just so good today. Coverage from Cathro, Wyn, BK, Vital and a load of others has got really good this year too, thankful for that.
Just my long winded 2p
Even though people say about ‘paywall’ a LOT of people get to see DH now through Eurosport and Discovery which comes as part of an overall package, they wouldn’t have seen it or found it via Redbull TV as that doesn’t exist to most…
i know this is a uk based website with mainly uk participants, but i’m pretty sure eurosport isn’t available in north america as part of a regular tv package, but tv’s come with a red bull app installed.
does discovery broadcast any DH outside of discovery+?
i don’t think there is any greater chance of punters stumbling across DH on discovery+/eurosport and becoming fans than there was when it was on redbull tv.
i also don’t see how the sport can grow if the rules make it difficult for competitors to get a foothold. unless the plan is to attract so many sponsors that it becomes viable for more elite/factory teams to operate. don’t know the correct term, but i mean the teams with the riders that don’t need UCI points to enter
the only highlights i’ve found on youtube have been very short.
I get Discovery + ‘for free’ with my sky sub
If I had to pay for it I would be well and truly peed off as the interface is crap. <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">If it wasn’t for this forum I would have missed most races as their schedules are always wrong.</span>
The commentary in the semis is awful, as is the camera work. It improves slightly in the final, at times I used to find RW a bit ott but boy he does show how bad these guys are.
The whole organisation just appears a bit amateurish with scheduling later in the year, last minute cancellations
Im actually getting bored with the courses, they are all getting bike park esk. Why not do the full race series at Dyfi and stop all the travelling?
If I had to pay for it, I wouldn’t be paying again and certainly if it’s not in my Sky subscription going forward I won’t pay for it
I'm finding it far easier to watch, trying to find the live feed on the red bull app was damn near impossible, it would constantly have links to last week's race rather than the one that was live at that very moment. Now I can go on Discovery+ and it's right there.
I agree on semi finals being rubbish and the ews now feeling worthless
But that Ric guy, sorry but it’s just awful
Really? I'm all for bring back RW but yer man is working hard holding shit together. Far, far better than anyone other than the guy who should be commentating on these spectacular events.
If (massive if, I know) the new setup was not behind a paywall, I think it would be marginally better.
You get to see more of more full runs.
The commentary is still poor compared to RB - Gwin seemed to be a large step in the right direction, though.
But, as I cannot now watch finals in full, the experience is virtually non-existent. Semis? Yeah, but no. The quick riders are not at full tilt and you can tell. The format changes are designed for a better viewing experience, but only if you pay and I am not in a position to do that.
More generally, in my opinion, there needs to be one or two extended sections of slow tech on every track. DH is rapidly heading towards a battle of outright courage/stupidity. Or, putting it slightly less emotively, the winning edge is defined too much by willingness to accept risk. The media men think da kidz want big air and big crashes, but this view is distorting the sport and making it more dangerous. Slow tech is also a distinct skill versus blasting down.
I'd like to rewind the clock a few years, TBH.
But, as I cannot now watch finals in full, the experience is virtually non-existent.
Why ?
DH is rapidly heading towards a battle of outright courage/stupidity. Or, putting it slightly less emotively, the winning edge is defined too much by willingness to accept risk. The media men think da kidz want big air and big crashes, but this view is distorting the sport and making it more dangerous.
Welcome to the world of 2020+ That's how the kids roll... You see 16-17 year olds at Vanta Jam, you've got Harry Schofield hitting jumps bigger than double decker buses and 8 year olds hitting A Line in Whistler.... The kids do want big air, thats what they thrive upon. You only need to go to any home built woods and see what trails the kids build, they don't build tech, curves, gnar.... they build jumps and gaps... That's the world.
Whether that's a deliberate thing in terms of course, choices etc i'm not sure. But it's the world in which we find ourselves.
Are you asking why not being able to watch finals live makes the experience virtually non-existent? Seriously?
The point of a race in a TT format is who gets down the hill quickest. In the final, the one that really matters. Not some pseudo-quali named as a 'semi-final'. To have the proper experience you need to watch the last hour at least, live (as it was on RB).
As for big air and crazy speeds - sure, you can have 85% course like Willingen if that is your thing, but a couple of sections of slow tech would not impinge on that much at all. Most tracks are so steep that the riders are back up to warp speed in 2-3 seconds.
Overall, I think it's fine for the first season under WBD. I already subscribe to Eurosport for road racing, so the DH isn't costing me any more than previous. The Eurosport is loads better (for me) than Redbull was, just works.
The commentary isn't that bad, was improved immensely with Gwin on board, loved the detail he brought to the race. Would love to see Reece, Miriam, others in the booth each week. Hoping they need a season to find their feet, wouldn't be mad if Cedric was moved out the booth. I think he'd be great as an after race interviewer, imagine the hype at the finish line with Cedric congratulating Bruni after a win.
Filming is definitely a small improvement, I like the closer drone shots and it feels like we see more of the racing.
Haven't watched any of the semi's, I just treat them like qualifying. Look at the semi results on PB and then watch the final. Think it should go back to quali and final.
The most important thing is the racing is still awesome. I love watching Vali, Loic, Loris, Nina, Danny, Greg, all absolute magicians on a bike and come across as ace people too. I think amongst all the complaining, people are missing the fact that the racing has been damn good so far this year (weather excepted).
The culmination of paywall, not having Rob Warner, race schedule changes killed any interest from me. All the drama around last few races has also made me less interested.
Are you asking why not being able to watch finals live makes the experience virtually non-existent? Seriously?
No, i'm asking why you can't watch the finals in full ?
Watched Eurosport Loudenvielle highlights last night (having avoided the results) - must say, what a fantastic race. Great course meant for some really out-there runs - especially Daprela, oh my. But Eurosport really couldn't give a toss about it, the editing looking like it was done blind, and here's the greatest of all time, Greg Min... oh.. adverts and... he's now Bernard Kerr! ad breaks in the middle of runs.... I stick by my TV coverage is garbage comment.
I used to fit watching the races in around family life, almost always on my phone with one headphone in, cooking etc. I can’t just sit in front of the TV/computer for hours when I need to be a useful parent at the weekends. So this is the first year in over a decade that I haven’t watched the races. I’ve watched some of the highlights and I’m pretty like, blah, whatev’s about the whole thing. A shame.
Not watched any of it, as it's behind a paywall.
Bit like @chiefgrooveguru above, needs to fit in around other things, not something I would pay for as the chances I won't get time to watch it are too high.
I used to fit watching the races in around family life, almost always on my phone with one headphone in, cooking etc. I can’t just sit in front of the TV/computer for hours when I need to be a useful parent at the weekends. So this is the first year in over a decade that I haven’t watched the races. I’ve watched some of the highlights and I’m pretty like, blah, whatev’s about the whole thing. A shame.
That closely describes my situation too. Young kids and aging parents leaves me with little time to dedicate/sit on my arse to watch through hours of coverage. RBTV coverage before was spot on - long enough to cover the race, short enough to relaistically be able to watch it. RB app was perfect to watch while multi-tasking, but equally I could sit back once kids were in bed and watch it back properly.
Coverage: I ain't subscribed/paid as I can't commit to watching that amount of less-exciting coverage. RBTV was shorter, sharper, much more exciting, and a realistic amount to watch IMO.
Semi-finals: no need. Sack them off. Back to qually and final only.
Commentary: awful, a big step down from previous years. Rick and Cedric just talk without giving much meaningful insight - they don't add anything and I'd mute them if I could. Gwin though - GREAT addition at the weekend there, showed to me just what we're missing (the technical insight and real-time analysis of the runs) by not having Rob, Elliot, Tracey and Claudio.
The racing/tracks: still ****ing amazing which IMO makes the coverage and format changes even more frustrating - that I can't easily follow the racing like I have the past decade and more.
Coverage: I ain’t subscribed/paid as I can’t commit to watching that amount of less-exciting coverage. RBTV was shorter, sharper, much more exciting, and a realistic amount to watch IMO.
Why not just watch the finals ? You don't have to watch the Semis or the Juniors.. The finals show 30 riders, but the prog is equally as long as the RB version, showing more of the runs of the last 30... whereas the RB version showed more rides, but less actual content.
Young kids and aging parents leaves me with little time to dedicate/sit on my arse to watch through hours of coverage
Don't then, you can watch exactly the same amount of time on just the the top30 men's finals.
Moving Cedric to another role would be good, his rabid enthusiasm doesnt quite gel with the live commentary format.
Gwin excellent, but you can tell he's itching to get back on the bike. Minnaar did a good hardline commentary a few years back, but second place last race so reckon he'll keep at it for another year at least. Wilson was good a couple of years ago.
Not a huge fan of the semis as they are. I watched the first one on youtube (and the U23 XC) to gauge the coverage for freebefore buying a GCN sub. Not wathced them since. The 30 and 15 rider final seems quite good in my opinion. Just need to sort a fairer/better qualification system.
My thoughts, scrap semis, scrap protected riders; have a two run, best time counts quali.
scrap protected riders
iirc this came in because of top riders missing out due to things beyond their control in quali's - e.g. weather
If it was a more mature sport you'd just have the same 15/30 riders doing all the races with (maybe) an occasional local wildcard. This would mix a lot of course issues (massively decreased traffic), but OTOH people would absolutely flip out that the 100th ranked rider in the world wouldn't have a chance to try and qualify
iirc this came in because of top riders missing out due to things beyond their control in quali’s – e.g. weather
Unfortunately in reality it gives massive benefit to the top riders as they can risk crashes and punctures to a greater extent.
Hence my suggestion of a two run quali. Or to save time, perhaps only the protected riders get a second chance. Obviously those two runs are going to be a few hours apart so there is still the weather issue.
I used to watch every race when it was on red bull, either live or catch up when I got home from a ride.
I haven't subscribed for the new broadcasters for two reasons. Firstly if I'm paying for it then I will feel like I need to watch it, and with the new format of quali, semi then finals, I simply can't invest that much time.
Secondly, Ive watched a couple of semis on YouTube and the coverage has seemed very poor. Poor camera work and poor commentary. I'm not paying for something that is substandard compared to the free version last year.
It's a shame, as I feel like this is a really great sport to watch online, it has such a climatic build through the finals race. But the new format will not encourage new people to the sport. Downhill seems to be getting ruined by the new broadcaster.
with the new format of quali, semi then finals, I simply can’t invest that much time.
you don't have to watch the semis (which is free on youtube, so dont feel like you need to do so to get your money's worth)
You end up watching the best* 30 men and 15 women, which is pretty much what happened in previous years.
*Ok very occasionally, someone will slip through the cracks like Brayton. Which sucks if you are him, or if he is your most favouritest rider ever.
You end up watching the best* 30 men and 15 women, which is pretty much what happened in previous years.
Yeah but riders 30-50 was where the absolute mid-field carnage used to happen 😉
*Ok very occasionally, someone will slip through the cracks like Brayton. Which sucks if you are him, or if he is your most favouritest rider ever.
Which even he has admitted is his own fault for not paying attention to the rules
But if you/we/everyone doesn't pay then the sport disappears. The sport needs money to bring money, to make money, to bring money, etc etc... Without the customers, the advertisers leave. I have no idea why some people seem to think RedBull will be the saviour if Discovery+ goes away.. RedBull had decided that the value placed upon it was more than they were prepared to pay.. Why would they come back ?
Even though it may be worse (in some opinions/ways) it's still the best we have and the only thing we have.
I mean lets be honest here, how many people were slaying Crankworx coverage in years gone back, rubbish camers, rubbish commentators, etc... it was slated time and time again.... But that was RedBull too.
Is even things like Rampage decent... well only because of the spectacle... it's had completely dubious results, a rubbish set of commentary and camera angles that often miss things...
Discovery+ may not be 'the answer' but it's all we DH fans have currently... embrace it.
peter1979 nails it for me.
I'm not paying for something that is less good than what I had before.
If that means the sport dies then it is the UCI whatdunnit by selling out.
🤷♂️
But if you/we/everyone doesn’t pay then the sport disappears. The sport needs money to bring money, to make money, to bring money, etc etc… Without the customers, the advertisers leave. I have no idea why some people seem to think RedBull will be the saviour if Discovery+ goes away.. RedBull had decided that the value placed upon it was more than they were prepared to pay.. Why would they come back ?
I don't buy into the Red Bull = saviour thing either, but . . . They haven't gone completely. Still a large presence from them in the finish area at the weekend. If the paywall situation does fall flat on it's face then maybe RB will come back, but they'll do so for a far cheaper price than they were offering before. The sport still loses
But the new format will not encourage new people to the sport.
Eurosport had 157 million subscribers in 2019, it's probably going to open DH to a much much wider audience that RB could ever have managed.
Going behind a paywall to increase viewers?
It's a strong business model if it works!
🤣
Going behind a paywall to increase viewers?
You're aware of no doubt, the Premiership, T20 cricket, Tennis, F1, The Superbowl, etc etc?
You’re aware of no doubt, the Premiership, T20 cricket, Tennis, F1..The Superbowl, etc etc?
Yes. And how many viewers would those have free to air?
It seems the point is moot (and the thread title too, for that matter) because for every person that won't now watch it, there will be 2000 new viewers.
It appears the UCI have hit upon a positive feedback loop of amazingness.
It appears the UCI have hit upon a positive feedback loop of amazingness.
It's far from that... but RB and DH was only working for some people, mostly viewers... it was giving bugger all to riders. As said, they were getting £3000 for winning the Elite world champs last year in prize money, hell, that's buttons for putting themselves on the line of broken bones time and time again, risking crashing etc... But they get next to sod all. Considering they're unlikely to win more than 1 event in a month, it's not exactly glowing prize money. You add that to the fact they're hardly getting millions as racers from teams. I see plenty of them at races we attend, none turn up in Lambos, none turn up with £200,000 campers.. they're not earning well... Sure a few are... but not many.
Unless 3rd party money comes into the sport and viewers increase, the riders won't get better packages in terms of reward.
I've not seen anything in the semi-finals that makes me want to subscribe to Discovery+ or any of the other options that could gain me access. I cannot stand the G**N channels and I don't want access to anything else D+ do so I'm not interested in taking out another sub. I'd consider a PAYG for the events or the series but I'm not impressed with what they've done so far, especially the way they're treating the riders. I guess I'm conscientiously objecting,
I was never necessarily pro or anti Redbull, I can't stand the drink and consider them a pushy and somewhat tacky brand but do love that the owner had a massive passion for sport, especially the more extreme stuff and put a hell of a lot of money into it. Being the recipient of an RB helmet is a hell of an accolade in whatever sport you're doing and I understand they treat their athletes very well, especially when injured. I don't for one minute think that Redbull's custody of MTB sport was 100% altruistic but they did right by it for 10 years and they, at this point, are sorely missed.
D+ and the UCI need to pull their fingers out to create a show worthy of the performers, pay those performers accordingly and treat them right. These guys are risking their health for the sport, it's spectacular and D+ are benefitting from it in some way or they wouldn't be doing it. It's time to bring in a (real) title sponsor and up the prize money. I wonder what could/will happen when DH subscriber/viewing figures bomb? I'm assuming that D+ are contractually obliged to put on and broadcast the events.
There is the argument that none of these guys do it for the money and that even if they had to pay for it all themselves, they'd probably still do it even if on a smaller scale.
Caught up with a few Youtubes and podcasts whilst travelling this week. The recurring theme is that the whole organisation seems very amateur.
Jack Reading's Andorra video highlights how difficult the logistics for the B pit were. To get to his race run he was on a bus filled with traveling fans with his race bike, spare wheels and tools. Surely a World Cup rider can expect better, even if they are in a non elite team.
Moving the Needle podcast Loudenville review is great if you can get past Sven and Needles talking over each other. Sven points out that the lack of B zone and safety access were highlighted even before track walk, so inexcusable that became the reason Juniors was cancelled. Jack Reading's Loudenville vlog also touches on this.
Bernard Kerr Les Gets showing approx 50 riders were allowed to get the two lifts to the top of the track but practice was closed when they got there. It is taking them an hour to get from pits to top of the track so practice has been limited.
The positives are the two French tracks have been well received apart from usual Les Gets terrible jumps.
Juniors was ace. Lots of ups and downs, plenty of downs in the floury dust too.
I won't get to see tomorrows race until at least Sunday night, maybe even Monday.
No love for the women’s XCC, just finished? Brill result for Evie
FFS mate. In the DH thread????
I've watched every finals with GCN+ and most of the XCO.
No interest in the semis, and I think they've caused issues for some omnipresent riders not making the final cut (Ad Brayton, for one). Again, some have speculated that the higher injury rate this year is down to the increased pressure of 2 race runs. Get rid, I reckon, it's not adding anything, is anyone even watching?
The drone shots have been very impressive this year, though I think it'd freak me out trying to ride with one buzzing around my lug holes.
Coverage has been fine. There was always going to be big shoes to fill with commentary and it has got better over the season. Gwin was good this week, and other guests make a welcome addition. The GNC+ app for Firestick is absolutely abysmal though, with weird zooming and freezing, and terrible menu nav....though that's not really the racing. Probably will find an alternate way to watch next year, just based on how shit the app is.
I think the women are being really short changed. Only 15 riders through semi's and 10 into finals, meaning a very limited opportunity to score UCI points. I know they are trying to get the best of the best, but if the riders on the cusp are consistently losing out of vital race environment runs, how are they supposed to improve? It's not like there is a second tier international series to work your way up in.
Protected rider status needs to go as well. You either qualify or you don't. I think it gives an unfair advantage to riders to be able to take risks in quali runs, knowing if it goes wrong then they've nothing but a few extra points to lose.
They did though. When Bruni won in Worlds in Les Gets he got £3000. The bloke in 10th got £300.
That's just prize money. Being a professional sports person is about what you can offer sponsors rather than prize money. If the riders are viewable by more people they are able to attract more and better sponsor. Guess who I have seen more footage of from the last race? Kade, he didn't even make the finals but seen load of footage of his tuck and t bogs.
Protected rider status needs to go as well. You either qualify or you don’t. I think it gives an unfair advantage to riders to be able to take risks in quali runs, knowing if it goes wrong then they’ve nothing but a few extra points to lose.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I don’t understand why some riders are protected and others not even more so at the beginning of the season.
I like the semifinals not because I watch them but because it makes watching the finals more enjoyable. I don’t care who comes 20th let alone 45th or 60th. Potential sponsors will see them in qualifying and the semis and the best will get offers from the big teams if they think they are hood enough
That’s just prize money. Being a professional sports person is about what you can offer sponsors rather than prize money. If the riders are viewable by more people they are able to attract more and better sponsor. Guess who I have seen more footage of from the last race? Kade, he didn’t even make the finals but seen load of footage of his tuck and t bogs.
I can't even recognise a sport in what you wrote.
I don't even know where to start ... is the WC now only for professional sponsored riders?
How are they even meant to get there... in terms of paying for races to win points or physically travelling there without a sponsor?
If it is no longer a sport but a business (like football, american football etc.) then surely the participants should be allowed their own sponsors not have the UCI tell them who they can and can't have or make them sign away their sponsorship income in a bigger UCI deal (e.g. GoPro) and drop the pretence this is about being the best or fastest rider.