I get worried when people mention the word technical. I'm as you've already guessed old school xc, and don't really know what technical is. My assumption is that technical covers areas were specific skills or training would be required or the need to negotiate man made sections. The picture back there to me isn't technical merely a muddy slope, that's why the word intimidates me a bit.
yup agreed- there are more technical roads around here hels - but its still a single up followed by a single down.
On an unrelated note, but relevant to the OP. Go ride some XC races. By all means make a techy one, but trying to organise a race of a type you've never done yourself is asking for trouble/poor race. Common mistakes would appear to include getting the length of laps wrong (either too long, or not realising how fast the fast folk can be).
Or if you have raced XC, you don't mention it - but would then surely have an idea how techy it can be.
I get worried when people mention the word technical.
I thnk technical covers anything that requires thought and skills to ride, plenty of sections or trails don't require that at all. Natural trails need it fairly often, places like llandegla rarely do. I think I'd define it as the stuff that experienced riders pass over and make look fairly easy, but the newcomers struggle on. I'm not sure manmade stuff really fits under that heading, apart from woodwork maybe.
The picture back there to me isn't technical merely a muddy slope, that's why the word intimidates me a bit.
And that's the trouble, it's very subjective!
Take the BMBS last year, for anyone that rode it, there were triple down arrows at Worry Gill and Medusas Drops at Dalby, the former was ****ing steep, totally ridable, but was causing a number of people (I'm happy to admit I was one of them!) a reasonable amount of grief/self doubt. Then at Crow Hill there was another triple down arrow, you'd think within the series at least there'd be a modicum of standardisation, but that was for a loamy slope at which I didn't see anyone hesitate!
Now someone who came to Crow, and thought that was a 'triple down' section may be in for a nasty surprise when they launch themselves off some of the other more technical sections in other courses!
Not being willy waver njee, but the black at laggan isn't tech at all. ou don't have to think about your trajectory. For each rocky bit, there is a clear kick off and a clear exit. You don't have to think about where you're going to put your wheel. Just point, and shout. The devil staircase downhill is more techy in the sense that you have to think about where you go a bit more.
Fair enough, I've not been so I'm not really qualified to comment, but I've heard a lot of people (including on here) say that it's about the most technical trail centre in the country. So to say it's not technical seems questionable to me!
Loads of people claim the kelpies "obstacle" at carron valley is technical and difficult and worthy of note, but I didn't even realise I'd ridden over it and was still hunting for it by the time I reached the bottom (not willy waving, was genuinely amused). Everyones technical will be different.
what do you ride juan .... i was speaking about the XC race course there...
the black is tech as **** on an 80mm 26inch wheeled carbon race bike ...
its reasonable on a 5inch trail bike
its as much fun as a week in quarantine on a downhill bike
If you look in the picture there is a marshal at the top (although we don’t give them flags and BC have never pulled us up for that). We had another one at the bottom behind the position from which the photo was taken.
As luck would have it I have a copy of the British Cycling Mountain Bike Event Organiser’s Handbook on my desk (next to the hand cream, but that is a different thread).
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trail rat I rode it twice, once on the hj and once on the hoss
Harry the spider, I can see the marshal, I can see he has no flag, I am not knocking you for not having a flag as I have never seen one at an XC event either, but it wouldnt hurt to adopt the use of them, even if BC dont enforce it..
Its odd the handbook makes no mention of the yellow flag and yet the picture shows one.
It just saves the marshal from having to say rider down to each and every rider entering the section.
I take my hat off to anyone organizing an event, there is certainly a lot to it. 🙂
I raced MX for years and before a radio would have been commonplace for marshalls, it was all done on a flag system, yellow for proceed with caution, a white for medical assitance and a red for stop the race.
(yellow with black cross last lap, and obviously the chequer but not really important for MTB I know)
In this case the approach was slow with good visibility. I don't see a difference between a shouted warning and a waved flag.
From a personal perspective I would rather have the marshal shout "Steady on! Man down! Take the chicken run or wait for him to get up!" (which is what they were doing) rather than be subjected to some non-specific flag waving.
The important thing is that the BC officials were happy with the course, the marking, the hazard warning, the marshal location, the briefing, the first aid cover, the risk assessment and so on. I think that they apply a bit of common sense when it comes to interpretation of the hand book.
dunkeld busa was class spectating mind.
managed to convince about 1 in every 20 riders to launch the rock drop off towards the end of the DH course in the xc race. including will evans (i think) running at it on a chainless giant trance.
great fun.
Aye that was the tiny drop that no one would do, very strange! I think it was the DHers baying for blood that put people off!
think it was about 3ft or so. had a little rock in the landing too that you had to clear. like half way up the last section before you drop into the finish fire road.
very amusing.
We try and make the course appear harder than it is whilst making it safer than it looks if you know what I mean 😈
Maybe that is one of the reasons why we don't see casualties on the technical sections... everybody is concentrating and even if you do cock it up it isn't as bad as you first thought.
I don't remember it being that big, the one right at the bottom, someone had sprayed a 'runway' up to it and written 'huck it' in massive letters, with the massive crowd of cheering DHers! It can't have been 3 foot if I rode it!
Edit: it's like I said earlier, most injuries tend to happen at speed, most people riding scary looking stuff are going slowly, so less likely to get badly hurt.
Actually you can add Photographers to the list of Hazard Warnings for Riders. I am always more alert when I see one of those vultures, although one day I might get annoyed enough to accidently crash into one, I think it's a liberty to take pics of complete strangers in public (and even more to publish them) but I appear to be old-fashioned on that one.
Baying crowds definitely make me slot into Mince Mode !!
nah it will have been further up. it was a bone fide drop off a rock thing, pretty much onto flat too.
one of the dunkeld locals will know it. i had a photo of it once, god knows where tho.
Aaah, that I do remember! Think there were more people around the one at the bottom, which everyone was still avoiding!
oh aye i think it was just me and about 1 other optimistically screaming DO THE DROOOOOOPPPP to anyone that went past.
10.0 GENERAL CROSS COUNTRY
REGULATIONS
10.5.2 Marshals
10.5.2.1 A flag system must be applied as follows:
[b]10.5.2.1.1 All marshals working in potentially
hazardous sections must carry a yellow
flag which will be used during training and
racing sessions.
10.5.2.1.2 If this flag is held out stretched, riders
must slow down since an accident ahead is
being indicated.[/b]
10.5.2.2 All marshals must ideally have line of sight
with each other and carry whistles which
will be blown with a short sharp blast as
the next rider approaches.
just shows that you need to read more than the handbook
anyway Hit the North Opertes under cyclocross rules as parts of the course are unrideable?
10.1 Course Design Parameters
10.1.1 The course must be 100% rideable
regardless of the terrain and weather
conditions. Brief and unavoidable
dismounts may be approved by the
Technical Delegate and/or the Race
Commissaire.
or did you get approval?
Must admit I was pleasantly suprised and impressed with the last Gorrick, It was alot more technical than i was expecting.
Actually I suppose it depends on your definition - does tech = dangerous or does tech = difficult to get up/down at speed not dabbing etc
my definition of tech is the second. For instance I don't really think of the black run at whites level as technical....
(this is my first year racing tho)
oh aye i think it was just me and about 1 other optimistically screaming DO THE DROOOOOOPPPP to anyone that went past.
My brother did that race and felt compelled to do the drop each lap - until his bull-in-a-chinashop approach to all things like that finally caught up with him and he destroyed his rear wheel...
does tech = dangerous or does tech = difficult to get up/down at speed not dabbing
That's my point, drops/jumps aren't really in the spirit of things IMO, people do them because they have the balls (and probably the skill), or they don't because the lack the balls (and possibly the skill). Technical descents offer much more opportunity for skilled riders to open gaps over those less skilled.
Well i agree with njee, there is not much technical on a drop. However a steep twisty and rocky trail now that's techy 😀
Agreed, and if you want to make a course technical that's the sort of stuff that should be included.
Basically you want to reward the riders who are good bike handlers, and penalise those who aren't. Doesn't actually have to be steep to do that mind!
[url= http://vholdr.com/node/24735 ]Worry Gill from the NPS XC at Dalby linked from the British Cycling website[/url]
Is that tech enough ?
mark nope.
I need a closer film, but from what I can see, clean line before and after a steep bit. It's not like they had to actually put the wheel in the correct place and to deal with a tight switchback in the middle of it.
Looks to me that people mistake techy with
Dangerous
Steep
Rocky
Worry Gill was IN NO WAY TECHNICAL. It's merely a drop that required a bit of balls.
Hated the start to that race, basically watched the top three ride away while the people between me and them minced it up. You can see my trackstanding at the top of that drop while the faceplanter is moved out of the way at 1min in that video.
moving away from 10..2.2 etc Hit the North and many other events are well run and as with all events will get better will more rider support. BC rules have their impracticalities and the organisers guide as a first go is OK but needs some parts addressing
I'm not sure where the obsession with "tech" parts of the course and making things more technical etc etc leads us
IMHO it's about geting the balance of the course right so that both fitness and technical skills are needed to do well whilst doing what you can with the venue (as this is the true limiting factor).
get it wrong and you will turn riders off, get it right and they come back for more. We make no claims to have got it right.
I hope the proposed race gets off the ground and is well supported, what is needed is more real racing and less faux racing (eg "challenges", marathon series etc)
After numerous meetings with BC in various muddy fields and supermarket cafes I’m not sure that either party knows what rules HtN operates under. Moutainbiking I think, certainly not CX. They gave us the mountainbike handbook but have never waived a rule book under our noses and said that we don’t comply with 10.22 or any other law.
From what I can gather as long as we and they apply a degree of common sense and ensure that the event is as safe as possible we can do what we want.
Design the course however you want to. But do it in a way that the insurer and the competitors are happy.
blimey. lots of answers for a passing thought.
anyway, watch this space. I think we'll be doing something in the future...
"but the black at laggan isn't tech at all"
Too tech for me. Guess I normally ride negative tech!
I would put in some reasonable downhill obstacles: drops, logs, awkward corners, root bundles - it makes riders think about how committed they feel. If they mince or walk them they lose time. If they crash, they lose time.
Overtaking on downhills, esp singletrack sounds dangerous - worse than 4X! I had assumed that courses were designed for chasing tails on the downhills and then overtaking on the uphills.
It is quite frustrating for someone who is pretty good on the bike but not fanatasticly fit to have some whippet shoot past on a fireroad only to then [spend the next 15mins trying not to crash into their back wheel on the descent
Things is I kind of accepted that is part of XC racing. One way round would be technical climbs which reward skilled not just fit riders.
Personally I would prefer rally stages where each rider is timed between sections and given a full clear run, but I just don't think that's practical.
Has anyone had a crazed cyclist-chasing dog as a course hazard?
We've got one at HTN2.0.
It 'kicks in' just as you're getting bored on an uphill cobbled section.
We could strap a yellow flag to it if it helps.
Not read all this thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned already.
Dalby apparently has a new xc course which has a little more tech than usually found on xc courses, rock sections and drops, etc..
So i think things are heading that way, which will make xc more fun.
Most technical i've experienced is witches wood at a very wet cheddar challenge 04, but i was new to MTB then.
I'd love to see more technical sections in races, however they'd need to be as an alternative line, and even that might not work as different riders have a different rate at which they tackle techy bits and this could prove dangerous and too higher risk.
If you ride a classic XC bike (flat barred, v-braked, old Sid fork, skinny-tyred) most types of terrain are 'technical'.
Did the Rough Ride last year, and coming off the hills at 30mph+ on rutted paths is not for the faint-hearted - glad I've a proper bike. But the XC boys don't like it up-em!
Tinsy you can't have a no overtaking rule in an XC race surely
no over taking zones arequite common for bridleway/row sections.
last year there was several injuries at one of the gorrick races including a hospitalisation - it wasn't tech it was just some undulations!!
i think the problem was people who couldn't pump/ suck up bumps were getting the timing wrong and going over the bars.
[i]But the XC boys don't like it up-em! [/i]
The top XC riders can descend better than you would believe possible, especially given that they're usually on carbon HT's.
That video showing the Expert riders at Dalby that was linked to earlier in this thread - I think some people assume that the guys running it are crap/scared etc but it's usually nothing to do with that, it's a measure of speed vs risk. As that video shows it's just as quick to run it, probably less dangerous so they'll choose to run if it's slightly dicey (ie lots of other riders around). Do you ride it for the potential gain of a couple of seconds but with the risk of crashing (or having someone else crash into you) or do you take the safe option and run it, knowing that you'll only lose a second or two at most but you won't break yourself/the bike and you'll finish the race.
If you put really tech stuff into an XC race, the riders will simply jump off, run it and jump back on CX style. Not cos they can't do it but because it's quicker. So you need to find a happy balance where the riders will actually ride it.
jambo, in the name of 'research', if I pitch up at chipshop on the 'wrong' (100mm xc) bike and clippy pedals, will the big boys pick on me? The more i think about it the more of a laugh it sounds. A little diversion off the open track round the proto-pump track would be truly funny.
I suppose a less financially risky version would be incorporating it into the early morning of one of the cake race/timed run days so folk could bring 2 bikes and have a go at both, and you don't have to close the place for normal riding for another weekend day.
penalty times if caught running would stop that behaviour. At the end of the day it's supposed to be a mountain bike race. Getting off the bike and running sections isn't in the spirit of things.
Pro XC racers and youth and junior are all very good technically ( a lot better than what you think) you will be very surprised at what they can do with this.
courses can be very very technical, look at the 2009 UCI World cup course, bet half of you willy wavers would think twice about riding half of it.
for 80mm-100mm races bike they can fly on the single track, they will have any of you willy wavers on here.
they get of their bikes and run if its quicker, as i do when I'm racing nothing like a bit of cross. it is meant to be the fastest one around the course isn't it ??
These guys are quicker than you realize. they are lightning fast Up and Down.
That video showing the Expert riders at Dalby that was linked to earlier in this thread - I think some people assume that the guys running it are crap/scared etc but it's usually nothing to do with that, it's a measure of speed vs risk.
I'm happy to admit I'm in that video running down, as the bloke crashed just as we were 'lining up', so it made more sense to just jump off and run down the chicken run, not knowing if he was gonna jump up and out the way as he did, or lie there for ages. That's what I mean about drops though, there's no real skill there, it's just a bit of balls, but it totally ruins the flow of the race.
They've changed it now anyway haven't they, made it shallower.
