He is too, you know!
If he wants to waste his time, then fine. Bears shit in woods. Popes are catholic. Steel frames are best.
Just post up your Gregg's P7 again if you feel the need to labour the point.
All dannyh has alluded to is that steel looks better than carbon, but the latter is the better product. I would stake money on him preferring to drive the latter even if he would rather own the former (and who wouldn't) 😉
All dannyh has alluded to is that steel looks better than carbon, but the latter is the better product. I would stake money on him preferring to drive the latter even if he would rather own the former (and who wouldn't)
I wouldn't even entertain driving the latter car if I owned the first one.
Logic has no place here - now depart.
That's a silly comparison though. You're suggesting that by being steel it's somehow more enjoyable. As I'm sure has been pointed out, there will be plenty of carbon bikes that are great to ride from a fun POV, just as there are plenty of horrible dull, soulless steel ones out there too.
(Owner of many mtbs, at various points, mostly steel, sometimes aluminium, some carbon. No obvious correlation between enjoyment and material)
Steel
[img] http://tesco.scene7.com/is/image/tesco/203-4306_PI_TPS350395?wid=493&ht=538 [/img]
Carbon
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This smacks of emperor's new clothes.
I love my steel bike. I love it because it handles superbly. I think it'd handle just as well in carbon fibre but be 3lbs lighter and twice as expensive 🙂
Steel on STW =
* Niche [b]points[/b]
* Kudos [b]points[/b] - for those demonstrating that they are 'in the know' (wink)
* Retro I-was-in this-at-the-beginning [b]points[/b]
* Workmanly(or womanly) I-am-a-home-engineer-welding-legend [b]points[/b]
Hence, the multiplicity of posts posts here affirming an unending commitment to the only [i]true[/i] material used by [i]real[/i] mountain bikers.. 😉
A voice of dissent, if you will (I'm sure there are others thinking similarly, but not joining this abject steel worship).
I haven't ridden a steel framed bike since 1993 and I've no desire to. Although I remember it being great stuff - I'm sure this is rose tinted. In reality, its heavier and less strong than the carbon or aluminium that I now ride. AND it DOES rust!
Essentially it's completely non-sexy for the majority of biking applications. I'm at a loss as to why anyone would want to build (or ride) a steel framed full sus MTB, for example. Carbon can be as stiff, or as compliant as you like and tough as old boots, provided you treat it the right way.
The idea that, somehow, the majority of STWers (as it appears from this thread) are going to suddenly change into serial bike [i]repairers[/i] as opposed to [i]replacers[/i] because of the user-friendly properties of this wonder metal is laughable.
Just to add some balance here.. 😉
In response to the OP's question: It's nice stuff, probably - in some limited applications. But does not deserve unbridled worship. There's good reasons why alu and carbon are now used to make the overwhelming majority of 'enthusiast' bicycles.
no_eyed_deer - Member
...In response to the OP's question: It's nice stuff, probably - in some limited applications. But does not deserve unbridled worship. There's good reasons why alu and carbon are now used to make the overwhelming majority of 'enthusiast' bicycles.
I more or less agree with all the reasons steel isn't as "good" as the other materials or is obsolete, and I don't really believe that once you've fitted fattish tyres at low pressures you can really discern the difference in feel.
BUT
Of all the bikes I have had, there's only one that has been "sticky" and has stayed with me for over 15 years while other "better" bikes have come and gone.
So here's to my old STEEL 1x1 🙂
It's simple:
- steel frame believers are happy bike riders if they own a steel bike
- carbon frame believers are happy bike riders if they own a carbon bike
-> both are happy - what more could you want from your bike?
Too simple? Well, but there might be people around who can't be bothered to test bikes all the time. My first bike was steel, my second aluminium. The aluminium one was terrible. I went back to steel and never looked back (apart from my FS which is aluminum). Am I missing out on advanced technology? Probably. Do I care. No. I'm just a happy biker. 🙂
[u]But now to something far more serious:[/u]
You @dannyh don't do steel frames any justice if you take an blatant 250 GTO Replica as an equivalent for steel frames. Shame on you for this malicious mispic. Then again I didn't find an appropriate pic of an original either.
Anyway I think of steel frames more like a Lotus Seven and a carbon frame maybe like a Lotus Elise.
I'm at a loss as to why anyone would want to build (or ride) a steel framed full sus MTB
Then you'd hate my full sus - a DMR Bolt. I, however, think it's great. But don't listen to me, ask Olly Wilkins, probably a far better rider than anyone on here will ever be 😉
I also own, and ride, a Surly Krampus and a Dialled Alpine. Both steel, both great, and funnily enough neither has fallen to bits from rust yet.
I've just built up a steel single-speed for my son from an old 531 frame I bought off here. Even though the frame has to be at least 20 years old (26.8mm seat post!) it looks the [b]absolute business[/b] in a way that aluminium and carbon frames could only ever dream of.
Plus, it has a proper screw-in BB rather than some crappy press-fit piece of junk.
I've got a draw to steel bikes... Alu or carbon just doesn't interest me at all. I appreciate the tech in carbon or modern alu etc but I just don't find it sexy. I still have a 93 clockwork that I've single speeded and ride to work everyday with big apple tyres, i just love it, talk about a "life bike..." It goes on the back of my camper, to the shops, to work... I can remember wheeling the frame home in a shopping trolley home from the station to my college digs after getting the train to go buy it.
I have had alu bikes and after not feeling the love for an alu sub 5 I bought an 853 genesis latitude and was happy again...
I keep looking at steel bikes and fancy an escapade or similar perhaps a croix de fer... There's something just good looking and simple about a decent steel framed bike.
What does stress me out recently is that a few manufacturers have ditched 853 in the quest to build to a price perhaps so it's no longer possible to get an 853 replacement for my genesis without paying lots more or going custom.
There's something about the ring a steel frame makes when you flick it or catch it with something. The dull thud alu makes just doesn't compare.
I know it's all bullsbit and I do have a beard but I can't explain, it's just aesthetics I guess....
[url= http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adventure/frames/croix-de-fer-stainless-frameset ]And then there's steel like this...[/url]
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dribble, dribble.....
Saw plenty of bikes like that at the Velothon. Glad I wasn't on one.
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4 out of 5 of my bikes are steel. It's not because I'm a steel die hard although I do have a soft spot for the skinny tubed asthetics and the sometimes 'springy' ride. More importantly though it's because they are all great fun bikes to ride.
I know it's all bullsbit and I do have a beard but I can't explain, it's just aesthetics I guess....
Yes its a emotional response. It's why we buy things, use things and most importantly why we communicate. I love steel bikes and I know they are not the best for many things but they suit me and make me happy. So does smelly cheese, doesn't mean its the best. But a carbon bike and a energy drink makes my poo runny. Each to your own. Buy a Krampus they rock!
Because people think that the lateral flex they're feeling is actually vertical flex, and so makes it comfortable. 😈
Best steel bikes I've owned:
Kona Lava Dome (double butted cromo)
Raleigh M-Trax (double butted cromo)
British Eagle Touristique (531ST)
All very comfortable for all-day rides, all have a good amount of 'zing'/damping
Best alu bikes I've owned:
Rocky Mountain Vertex (Easton Ultralite Taperwall)
Kinesis Maxlight (Easton Ultralite Taperwall)
Cannondale CAAD3
Cannondale is the stiffest/lightest yet still has thin seat-tube and stays so doesn't kill me with harsh.
I like the steel frames a lot, for different reasons than the alu ones. And vice versa.
Steel: Damping, feedback/spring, all day comfort. Can still be built light but is confidence inspiring/resilient/repairable. Could be just an overblown perception but there it is. It feels like it will last forever.
Alu: Lighter, stiffer, feels more 'exact'. Climbs like a goat, accelerates like a missile, little to no lost energy when stomping.
If I had to have just one bike it would be steel, it's what I cut my teeth on and remains the material that has a certain something that I like in my bikes.
As others have said - a crappy steel or a crappy alu frame is crappy no matter. But still give me crappy steel over crappy aluminium. Worst steel bike I've owned os a Raleigh Apex with Reynolds K2 tubing (think is internally octagonal or somesuch) - worst alu was a Raleigh X1. The X1 was deader and heavier than a dead heavy dead thing. I literally hated it. The Apex, while heavy, still has some 'feel' to it. Just about. Am sure it will outlive me.
Decent steel HT's can be very good. A steel framed FS bike makes no sense to me at all, horses for courses and all.
A good alloy frame is better than a crap steel frame, and a good steel frame is better than a crap alloy frame. I'm sure it's just personal choice.
I'm sure carbon is the same, but it's too expensive for me to want to find out!
A steel framed FS bike makes no sense to me at all, horses for courses and all.
Read Cy's essay on the subject (it's on the geeky section of the cotic site) and I think there's a lecture he gave in the engineering dept. at Sheffield on youtube explaining it. Essentially at bike tube scales the stiffness/strength/weight of aluminium and steel structures are the same because by the time you've made a steel frame stiff enough it's more than strong enough, and by the time you've made an aluminium frame strong enough it's very stiff. So the Rocket frame was actually very stiff because on a bike frame things like the seatube are a fairly fixed diameter, so a steel seatube will make a much stiffer location for a pivot than an aluminium one.
Why Steel? Just remember my material science stress tests at university 😉 I love the skinny tubes on my rock lobster 853, love the way it actually seems to flex and absorb the trail.
One note I do have I have just built a Cotic Soul 650b and in comparison to the Rock lobster (also 853), I prefer the rock Lobster. I can ride faster on the Cotic which should indicate a flaw in my preference, but I prefer the frame on the Rock lobster, it just feels better. It is probably the fact I've had my Rock Lobster for 12 years and it because I'm more used to it. However the stats from my own rides proves the Cotic is better...
BR
Jerry
Steel is good on a HT as it's better then alu and cheaper then ti/carbon.
Ti is better then steel but then it should be for the price difference.
Have not really riden carbon enough to comment but expect the ti rule to count.
Aluminium is just a bit meh for HT. By the time you've spent enough to get a good un you may as well go the whole way and get ti/carbon.
IMO of course.
<pedant>than not then</pedant> 😀
Apologies, I'm a thick Northerner.
But then reasonably priced steel is rarely actually springy especially in these days of CEN tests (despite what people like to kid themselves)...
I got one after riding stevestunts rather beautiful kona explosif which was like riding puffs of valium laced candyfloss across trails of molten kisses. I got an on one 456 which rides like rolling a dustbin down a pile of broken excavators. I am a fool.
No worries, I'm a pedantic Northerner 😆
@nemesis - in the 1980s I got a handbuilt road bike made with Reynolds 531 that was definitely "springy" - if you were stood up pedalling you could feel the frame push back on each stroke. A bit disconcerting at first but something that you came to appreciate.
The only road bike since then that has given me the same sort of quiet comfort in the frame was a Van Nicholas titanium model I hired in Majorca last year - I'll hire another when I go again later this year.
My only MTB is a Ragley Blue Pig. It's bloody great. Can't say it's the steel and nothing else but it's a great ride. 😀
[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_I-9Aukfr1ByD6Ji5ToQkUN0USWqpczqfhvmZTcrIAI=w1042-h781-no [/img]
Some guff is talked about steel - it's certainly the best material for custom builders, but repairable? At a price, yes. Carbon is probably easier to repair than high-end steel. Carbon also gives you the best balance of stiffness and comfort, if it's done properly. Where I reckon steel wins hands-down is durability. Provided the tubes aren't ridiculously thin-walled, a steel frame will resist knocks better than anything else, will never ever fail by fatigue and if you treat the inside of the tubes with anti-rust stuff and make sure the BB drain hole is clear, it won't rust away either. That's why I'm still riding a 21-year old Pinarello Treviso and expect to be doing so for as long as I can pedal. Plus, it looks elegant, even with full length mudguards.
Whitestone - I had bikes like that in the 90s. They were flexy. Imo that's different to springy. Good springy bikes aren't flexy under power or at least not unreasonably so.
Oh and brant who knows a thing or two about designing frames has stated that steel frame typically are not under the fatigue limit for steel and as such will fatigue eventually. Obviously that could be a very long time but it's a misconception that they won't.
The endurance limit of steel is typically half the tensile strength. Granted, scratches, chips, dents, imperfect welds and corrosion will reduce this. I'll let you know how my heavy lugged and brazed frame is getting on in another 20 years.
If you check about three quarters of the way down page four, I think you'll find we've already sorted this one.
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Firefly bikes give me wood.
Is it just me or does that look really slack?
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mmmmmmmm
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Adonised logos - YES PLEASE!
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Those Fireflys are lovely bikes. The prices made my eyes bleed though... 🙂
thestabiliser - Member
I got one after riding stevestunts rather beautiful kona explosif which was like riding puffs of valium laced candyfloss across trails of molten kisses. I got an on one 456 which rides like rolling a dustbin down a pile of broken excavators. I am a fool.
Now try an On One 456 in Summer Season clothes. You'd need to add heavy lead gas pipe dead to the description.
I have three bikes, one steel, one aluminium and one carbon and I like them all. Am I normal?
By the way I have to agree with nemesis , modern steel can be hellish stiff. I had a 456 which was as stiff as any alloy bike I have ever had.
paulrockliffe - Member
To add some balance to the 80s tech love-in.....I can't stand steel frames, they're pretty much pointless, given the On One 456C frames are £400. All this stuff about flex and absorbing trail buzz is rubbish, the ultra stiff 456C is far more comfortable and suffers far less from buzz than the best steel frames. And all these frames have far better damping in the tyres.
The 456C is stronger and lighter too.
I can't see a single good reason to buy a steel frame, other than the proper cheap ones if that's all the cash you've got.
Well, I'm willing to put good money on the fact that you could easily be riding a steel framed bike forty, fifty, sixty years after you bought it, whereas it's highly unlikely an alu fram will last a third of that. I had a Cannondale M800 Beast Of The East, great little bike, terrific fun to ride, replaced the frame with a Cove Handjob, and sold the frame to a friend.
The Handjob fram is still around, but the Beast died years ago.
Also, there was a very definite difference in the way the bikes rode, the HJ was so much more comfortable to ride over reasonable distances, ten to fifteen miles, the Beast left me feeling like I'd been done over with a meat tenderiser.
And the only difference in the bikes was the frame, everything else was swapped straight over.
I've had alloy, titanium and steel hardtails, I still have two steel hardtails. As for carbon, I don't see that material being any good as a long-term material; if you're the sort of person who has to have the latest whizzy toy to show off to his impressionable friends, then I guess carbon is fine, because you'll soon get bored and move on to whatever the latest s****y piece of male jewellery happens to be.
While I'm not currently riding either of my steel hardtails, I'm not getting rid of them, I reckon I'll still have them in another twenty years.
For Dannyh, here's a photo of a genuine 250 GTO; the current owner's had it for forty-odd years:
[IMG] 
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Dunno about rat bikes, but this one has been slowly going rusty since I got the frame, and I've been tempted to strip the thin coat of lacquer off of it, and let it get a natural patina. It'll still be around in fifty years time, which is more than can be said for me.
[IMG] 
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Apart from the forks, everything on this bike came off a Cove Hummer and I've had lots more fun on this bike; I'm far less worried about damaging it by decking it.
Well, I'm willing to put good money on the fact that you could easily be riding a steel framed bike forty, fifty, sixty years after you bought it, whereas it's highly unlikely an alu fram will last a third of that
Lol yeah cos 60 year longevity is what people on here are really after.. I hope I'm not riding the same bike 60 years later 🙂
Lol yeah cos 60 year longevity is what people on here are really after.. I hope I'm not riding the same bike 60 years later
Are you being deliberately obtuse, Moll? Or is that whooshing noise the point going right over your head?
There are plenty of people riding around on good steel framed bikes that are sixty-odd years old; of course it probably won't be you, but you're the one who was banging on about people being wasteful in another thread, but you can't seem to grasp the idea that for many folks, having found a bike that suits them, and their style of riding, they might, just might, want to hang onto the bloody thing for longer than five or ten years before it wears out.
but you can't seem to grasp the idea
It's not me that's not grasping things...
I was in fact commenting that for most cyclists, a 50 year lifespan is way down the list of things to consider when buying bikes. Where are all the 'what bike to ride until I die?' threads?
I've got five bikes, four of which are 8 years old and show no signs of needing replacement, so I won't replace them. Alloy and carbon frames aren't disposable.
Took my son to the local Freeride trail today. He was on my old steel Genesis ioID and me on my five.
He didn't get on with it so we swapped bikes then put the five away on the car.
I did a few runs on the iOID. To say it was amazing fun was an understatement. Just as much air, only two seconds slower on my best run, and that's with 100mm QR forks, heavy alfine hub and small 160mm brakes.
Was revving up to get a 160mm FS beast next year but might not bother!!
Steel is well and truly alive!!!!
