Not all Trek. Must say I'd agree that by volume it's where most come from, but Brant (should) know more than most on here!
The vast majority of carbon frames come from China.
Very few come from Taiwan.
Brant are you able to give any comparisons on the N2A vs my Giant Defy? stiffer, lighter, sharper, etc?
Possibly not terribly objectively 😉
But a good opportunity to sell its good points 🙂Possibly not terribly objectively
There's certainly some amusing "weights" quoted and we have fallen foul a couple of times by actually quoting "putting it on our scales and weighing it" weights, rather than something else.
There's some quite funny content on this page about "weight".
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2011-pinarello-dogma---2011-6394.html
Pinarello's catalog indicates that the Dogma weighs 950g. This weight is before paint and "mechanization", i.e. installation of BB shell, bottle bosses, etc. Once mechanized, a 53cm Dogma weighs 1210g.
This weight is before paint and "mechanization",
Lol. I reckon I could make a carbon frame that's under 400g*
* before addition of matrix, paint, mechanisation
This is what it looks like
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thats taking the "non pedals quoted weight" a bit far 😉
i like the highly opinionated comments by some on here!
If it were me, i'd reccommend the storck scenero g2 for being a great all rounder if not a little racy in terms of geometry.
would i rate it as the best frame out there? course not! Lots of high end frames will ride great, be light and give you what you want.
The scenero rides better than many i've ridden but then i've not ridden all high end products out there.
thats taking the "non pedals quoted weight" a bit far
Because if they advertised their £3500 non-aero frame at 1250g people would laugh, and rightly so!
I have been quoted as saying that "bikes go as fast as you pedal them".
I don't ride a Planet X N2a, I ride a Planet X RT58. I love it. But I'm not a roadie.
Our proper roadies in the company ride RT57s, N2As or Mondos.
There's some quite funny content on this page about "weight".
I'd heard the rumours, but not seen it admitted in print! 😆
The Propel forgoes paint to keep the weight down, but I believe that the weight still includes ISP, carbon dropouts, BB insert etc... I guess paint could be viewed as structural.
As already mentioned above, all the high end bikes ride very well and just present different flavours of something very tasty. The OP has started with a fine bike and wants something that "feels" superfast. I'd start by adjusting the position.
My Giant Defy (Medium) came stock with a 100mm stem on a 54cm top tube. When flipped up with spacers, it would be a very relaxed position. I'm 5'10" and normal proportions, so switched to a 125mm flipped down stem, and with 0.5 cm of spacers, this mimics my racy (not really) TCR position. So, as I said before, adjust position first then if that isn't doing it on the "superfast" front, think about something with even more aggressive geometry.
I think it is ultimately a question of fit, not frame.
Regards the OP and his point about changing bikes/frames I wouldnt bother.
Put 2 different road bikes(with the same wheels/bars etc)in a wind tunnel and I'd bet the difference would be marginal.
The biggest effect on a bikes speed is the very un-aerodynamic rider sat on top.
Probably best off just spending money on lighter and faster rolling wheels and tyres.
Because if they advertised their £3500 non-aero frame at 1250g people would laugh, and rightly so!
I have a Ex-British Cycling academy frame(90's Dutch Concorde) I bought off ebay for about £50, Easton elite tubing which weigh 1300gms on my digital scales.
I can live with the extra weight for the money saved.
What the Op needs is a red bicycle as they are always the fastest.
The End.
is it alloy?
Defy's are cracking bikes, but I prefer the TCR. On the flat it was hard to split the two. On climbs the TCR 'felt' better, I put that down to a lower front end. And I knew the chainstays on the Defy were longer, so that played on my mind.
Forgive the hyper technical report, both great bikes for the 'punter racer' A pro tour rider might say different...might even mater to them.
I noticed Blanco used both TCRs and Defy's during the Paris - Roubaix which was nice.
on the aero wheels front, 4 weeks ago I put on my cosmics as my summer wheels (braccianos winter). Approx 0.7mph on average faster, used to average 17ish now late 18's for 2-3 hour loops. This is in the flat, but windy new forest.
Whether I just pedal faster because of the lovely sound of them I have no idea, but Garmin tells me I'm quicker. Everything else is identical as I swap the tyres/cassette etc...
If you want a great all rounder that you can convert to TT duties then go for a Cervelo S1 they just seem to encourage you to ride faster! And surprisingly comfortable too
on the aero wheels front, 4 weeks ago I put on my cosmics as my summer wheels (braccianos winter). Approx 0.7mph on average faster, used to average 17ish now late 18's for 2-3 hour loops. This is in the flat, but windy new forest.
any change in the weather, i find 1-2mph just when it is a bit warmer, another 1-2mph from riding in the sun rather than at night...
It is a [i]bit[/i] warmer....maybe it's that then and not the wheels...
I'm buying a Giant then. They are clearly the best in the world 😉
I noticed Blanco used both TCRs and Defy's during the Paris - Roubaix which was nice.
And the Defy came second overall - close but not won a major yet. The TCR and propel have, however. Not that it matters for the Masters race I'm missing as I type this 😉
Climbing on my Defy feels the same as the TCR. But as I said. they are both mine, and both set up the same. Wheelbase looks almost the same too when they are next to each other.
Has no one suggested a bike fit? 😀
But seriously, it'll make more difference than a new bike.
I've just built up an N2a with full Ultegra and RS80 deep sections, very very pleased, very stiff but every ounce of effort you put in goes to propelling you forward. Most of the crit racing I do averages 26+mph and I feel a benefit from deep section wheels
Have ridden a TCR and yes it's great great bike, but my reasoning was that with some of the idiots that have come to road racing in the past year I've seen more crashes in 4 months than I'd probably seen in 10yrs! So the moto don't ride what I can't afford to replace became important, replacement TCR frames are £1400 ish N2A £799.
Hopefully it won't see tarmac any time soon but all 3 of the races I've done in the last 2 weeks have had crashes!
I'm building this up, basically a TCR Frame but a lot better price and finish
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10 out of 10 in cycling weekly the other week too, apparently blew his strava times apart on it so quite excited to get it finished. Frameset retails at £1600 ish
Most people are posting with images of Defy "Advanced" with the mahoosive headtube, my Defy is just the "Composite" model. What are differences.....just so I'm on the same page....I got lost a while back 🙂
clubber
This weight is before paint and "mechanization",Lol. I reckon I could make a carbon frame that's under 400g*
* before addition of matrix, paint, mechanisation
This is what it looks like
[img]
Brilliant 😆
On the subject of Cervelos, one of my LBS tried their hardest to get me to buy a P3 but I refused because the world and his goat ride them. Ended up with a mid range basic Argon which IS my fastest bike.
Oh and I gather the P5 is a bit of a porker on the scales.
Anyhoo back on topic. I think we've come to a conclusion that Steveo's current frame is OK but there is scope for tweaking the geometry. Definitely worth trying a lower stem and also different lengths.
A bike fit might help but I'd also suggest riding with some old hand roadie mates and see if they spot anything obvious with your pedalling.
Stem now dropped 20mm & bars tilted a little forward than before and probably nearer level. Out on it tomorrow.
So what the difference in the Advanced to Composite, other than the shape?
davidtaylforth - MemberHas no one suggested a bike fit?
But seriously, it'll make more difference than a new bike.
I did, and recommended a power test too.
There are only so many ways to buy speed, sooner or later you have to stand on the scales and look in the mirror....
Canyon aeroroad?
Speed can have many variables, I am quite a big bloke so the aeroroad would suit me, being quite a stiff frame. If I wanted allday speed i would probably flip the stem up, against wanting speed for an hour or 2.
don't ride what I can't afford to replace became important, replacement TCR frames are £1400 ish N2A £799.
Planet X have a good crash replacement policy too 😉
Ktm doesnt look much like a tcr to my untrained eye....
Stem now dropped 20mm & bars tilted a little forward than before and probably nearer level
Is the stem flipped as well? I think you will want a longer stem really.
The Advanced is lighter. The advanced SL is a totally different beast with integrated seat post and more lightness and rigidity. I test rode and test raced an Advanced, then bought the SL unridden.
To be honest, you'd feel more difference with a better set of wheels and some race tyres.
EDIT: And I placed my TCR and Defy up next to each other in the dining room tonight, and all contact points are in the same place and the wheelbase looks the same on our floor tiles. Photos won't really show it, but the fit is identical. That's because I need 2cm of spacers on my TCR (14.5 cm head tube) and only 0.5 on the Defy. So the true difference is 0.5 degrees of head tube angle. I can't tell that from riding.
I've just built up an N2a with full Ultegra and RS80 deep sections, very very pleased, very stiff but every ounce of effort you put in goes to propelling you forward. Most of the crit racing I do averages 26+mph and I feel a benefit from deep section wheels
Really,most crit races I've done have been bunch affairs with a sprint. Not much need for aero in a bunch unless you are doing too much work. Stiffness might help.
Bike fit is probably the best idea so far. Tiny gains to be had with a new frame. Get one if you want but it won't really make you faster. Something with internal routing hidden shifter cables on the bars in red would look fastest but generally it is about the rider.
Everyone says bike fit, you all presume that the original fit is wrong of course....getting fit probably make more difference to speed 🙂
Whether it's actual benefit or 'placebo' benefit I'm putting in less watts for the same output of speed therefore fresher when I get to the sprint. Wheels seem to be the main factor as frames my 2 frames are similar stiffness
However it's 50/50 breakaway/bunch sprint in the races I've done
A few years back I was struggling to get above a certain speed on a bike despite training really hard and doing a lot of miles. I changed the stem from a 120mm 0 degree stem to a 90mm +10 degree stem and my speed increased greatly.
Why - because the bike fitted properly. Dont always assume that low and long is the best position and fastest on a bike.
Also - want your bike to go faster - pedal more quickly.
thanks for that clarification on the model differences. Wondering what mine weighs now! Any official weights anywhere, struggled to find published ones.Is the stem flipped as well? I think you will want a longer stem really.
The Advanced is lighter. The advanced SL is a totally different beast with integrated seat post and more lightness and rigidity. I test rode and test raced an Advanced, then bought the SL unridden.
To be honest, you'd feel more difference with a better set of wheels and some race tyres.
EDIT: And I placed my TCR and Defy up next to each other in the dining room tonight, and all contact points are in the same place and the wheelbase looks the same on our floor tiles. Photos won't really show it, but the fit is identical. That's because I need 2cm of spacers on my TCR (14.5 cm head tube) and only 0.5 on the Defy. So the true difference is 0.5 degrees of head tube angle. I can't tell that from riding.
Can't flip my stem as its already downward facing. I'll see how I get on with the ride tomorrow to see how crippled I am 🙂
Wheels: a deep rim is only going to add more weight wouldn't a lighter build be better in my position? Or we're you just meaning a light pair full stop regardless of depth?
What kind of speeds are you currently managing?
SL is 200g lighter than the Advanced and I guess that the Advanced is about 200g lighter than the Composite (possibly more if you factor in seatpost differences). You can easily save 400g on a decent set of wheels. Aero or otherwise, choose on budget. But a set of Ksyrium Elites with nice Mavic tyres will shed a pound.
For stem, I think you will need to go a 10-15 mm longer. As you rotate your body over, the hands move out further (for the same angle at the shoulder). A good check is to put your hands on the drops and your elbows should be bent slightly. Put your hands on the hoods and the angle should be just over 90 degrees. Less than this and your stem is too short. Part of the Defy "comfort" label comes from the choice of the shorter stem, flipped up and spacers it comes supplied with. But a perfectly acceptable racey position is just as possible (which is why I bought mine). My saddle to bar drop is 8cm. The TCR will allow me to go to 10cm, but this is too much for me. If you find you are not riding on the drops for at least 25% of the time, the bars are probably too low or far away in my experience.
mmm Im thinking mine must be a bit more. From memory mine weighs 18lbs, which is a porka for a Small.SL is 200g lighter than the Advanced and I guess that the Advanced is about 200g lighter than the Composite (possibly more if you factor in seatpost differences).
Yeah all that makes perfect sense. My arms are 90 deg on the hoods so to get just over the lowering of the bar and/or lengthening the stem may be the solution for the better racey position.For stem, I think you will need to go a 10-15 mm longer. As you rotate your body over, the hands move out further (for the same angle at the shoulder). A good check is to put your hands on the drops and your elbows should be bent slightly. Put your hands on the hoods and the angle should be just over 90 degrees. Less than this and your stem is too short. Part of the Defy "comfort" label comes from the choice of the shorter stem, flipped up and spacers it comes supplied with. But a perfectly acceptable racey position is just as possible (which is why I bought mine). My saddle to bar drop is 8cm.
Still have 10mm to go if I need too but at a quick measure saddle to bar height is 85mm, the second spacer down is a 7mm one which I hadn't noticed.
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Ksyrium Elites look nice, Ive also considered these in the past to get a light setup.
http://www.justridingalong.com/custom-hand-built-wheel-sets/in-stock-handbuilt-wheels/american-classic-micro-58-and-205-road-hubs-laced-to-notubes-ztr-alpha-340-rims.html
The Mavic do look really nice with the oversized spokes though.
I agree with the above comments about bike fit. Long and low is not necessarily faster. I had a retul fit and my stem changed from a 100 -6 to a 80 +16. My saddle was also pushed back and raised a decent amount.
The result was my hips were much more upright on the saddle rather than tilted forward tt style.
Of course it doesn't look anywhere as fast or cool, but I can now sustain longer in the saddle at a faster pace. No real change in top end or segment times.
