Personally I would wait to see if these are any good.....far better idea than having crank arm, BB or pedal based meters:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/rpm2-launches-footbed-based-power-meter-46485/
Not a great deal of love on this thread for Garmin Vectors, any reason why?
Also interested in the single arm Pioneer jobby but have seen few real world reviews.
I think they've all got their foibles or issues. Depends what you're happy to put up with I suppose and/or how much you can afford to spend.
far better idea than having crank arm, BB or pedal based meters
Good idea in theory but the technology isn't there to make them very accurate unfortunately. Clinical insole force measurement is ok(ish) but these in the link are not designed as a "power meter" or even high quality pressure measurement, more as an affordable L/R comparison tool for running and gym style exercises. I can't see this style PM becoming a serious option any time soon but am happy to be proved wrong. Even if they do revolutionize insole force measurements, you still have the issues like a higher stack height and getting custom fits accounted for. No one approach is perfect, even if the measurement system itself were to be perfect. If we are talking about making a conceptual choice, I'd still go for crank/ spider based personally even if insoles did prove to be a reliable and accurate approach... maybe pedals even if it becomes possible to miniaturise tri-axial force pedals to satisfy unnecessary geeky urges 🙂
Not a great deal of love on this thread for Garmin Vectors, any reason why?
Really? Like mine. Not had any problems. Started with single sided then upgraded to dual sided.
You do need to torque them up properly when installing and that's sometimes seen as a negative. I don't swap them between bikes so not really a problem for me.
They've been accurate (compared to my other PM's) and consistent. Battery life is good. You can also set a scaling factor which can be useful, especially if you just have the single sided.
I've not had any issues with the firmware either.
Little update on my stages battery life, so far I've been stubbornly refusing to replace the battery on the winter bike, it flashed up warnings after less than 30hrs use. So far I've ridden for approx. another 20hours since the first warning, so wondering if it is a bug somewhere that is triggering the message rather than actual battery consumption. I'm going to keep going till it actually dies this time rather than replace. The message is super annoying, it pops up on the garmin after 10-15mins riding usually and has to be dismissed, something hard to do when riding with thick gloves.
Also I tried to do the latest firmware update, and it failed, I'm wondering if this is linked to the low battery warning. Going to try on the summer bikes stages later which has got a recent new battery
Otherwise the power numbers are still the same...
Going to pick up a Powerpod in the US next month. I like the Physics, obviously, and the ability to move between bikes. Will compare with my Stages and PowerCal. Just need more head units! Actually the PowerPod stores power as well as CdA for each ride.
Still like the P1's but £208 for a powerpod is a reasonable price.
How do you find the powercal tired?
Thinking vabout one myself for ironman pacing in the summer. Appreciate they don't do instantaneous power but heard they are good for 5 min average power which I suspect would be fine for a steady effort, flat 180km TT...
Interesting DT78. I have the same thing but only since the firmware update. Stages app suggests almost full battery and Garmin is flashing up a low battery warning at the start of every ride.
I like the Powercal. I have a year's worth of data for rides from commuting to Ride London to 100 km road racing. On steady-state efforts it is very good. It also confirms when a race has been very hard. I don't use it for pacing anything except time trials, where heart rate is as good.
In races I don't look at power.
Hi all. Sorry to butt in.
I've been after a power meter for a while but funds have prevented me from taking the plunge.
I have recently been offered a Powertap G3 wheel set (H+ Archetypes and a DT Swiss 240 front hub) for £350 in Good condition.
It's from a guy in my club so I know they have been looked after.
The Powertap Hubs have always appealed to me as they seem easy to use and reliable.
Is there any reason not to go for it?
G3s are great in my experience. Only problems is upkeep can be an issue. If it has been looked after then hopefully you'll be okay.
Before you buy check the calibration number via a Garmin. I think 512 +/-20 was acceptable but I could be wrong so you should double check that.
Also spin the axle and see how the bearings feel - they can be a weak point, especially if it's just had a full winters use.
And 350 for the wheelset seems like a very reasonable price!
So, whilst this thread is still going, i've just replaced the battery on my Stages G2 for the first time. So that's about 2months use, or a generous estimate of about 100hrs riding. Won't mind if I get the same again - I'm two rides in so we'll see
I quite fancy the P1 pedals, but I am put off by the non Keo cleats.
Does anyone know what other pedals fit the P1 cleats? I don't want to always have to use the P1s on each bike, and swapping cleats frequently is a pain too.
Sure I read somewhere they were Wellgo cleats. Have a read back through this thread, I think njee has a set of P1's and done some experimentation with cleats. I think the summary was that the cleats work ok in keo pedals, and that keo cleats work ok in P1, but not quite as perfectly as a proper match.
The P1 cleats work fine with Keo pedals and Keo cleats seem to work perfectly with P1's from my experience.
Sorry me again.
What are people using to connect to an (newer) iPad.
Apple Lightning Adaptor
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Wahoo ANT+ Key
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The P1 cleats work fine with Keo pedals and Keo cleats seem to work perfectly with P1's from my experience
I agree, I put the 'Powertap' cleats on my winter shoes, and have normal Look ones on my normal shoes, not noticed any difference. I know DCR said worn Look cleats posed a potential problem. Mine aren't too bad so far. I can't see me using Keos other than very occasionally now, so I'll likely just buy the Wellgo ones when mine wear out.
What are people using to connect to an (newer) iPad.
I think the Wahoo key is the only one supported by TR.
I just replaced by PM and HR monitor with ones that supported BLE.
Vectors for Shimano pedals...
Interesting stuff. Wonder if they'll end up with a basic pedal-less kit and you then just add the cartridge kit for your pedals. Would be nice.
[b]ackie - Member[/b]
Hi all. Sorry to butt in.
I've been after a power meter for a while but funds have prevented me from taking the plunge.I have recently been offered a Powertap G3 wheel set (H+ Archetypes and a DT Swiss 240 front hub) for £350 in Good condition.
It's from a guy in my club so I know they have been looked after.The Powertap Hubs have always appealed to me as they seem easy to use and reliable.
[i]
Is there any reason not to go for it?[/i]
My G3 is one year old and currently about to be put in a box and sent back for the 3rd time in that period of ownership as it has gone out of range again.
If it was 2nd hand I would be paying for the work
My Stages on the MTB has been replaced twice, now on a G2 unit and it seems to be working ok after a few rides out, time will tell as the other units worked fine for the first few months too before problems started.
In short. I personally wouldn't buy a powermeter that didn't have warranty with it.
Vectors for Shimano pedals...Interesting stuff. Wonder if they'll end up with a basic pedal-less kit and you then just add the cartridge kit for your pedals. Would be nice.
That's a hell of an expensive wok around to get Shimano cleats to work on your Vectors. Surely you'd be far off just buying a set of Keo cleats and using them or are Shimano SPD-SL's really that good?
hell of an expensive wok around
Probably about 160 quid for pedals and kit. Not too bad I thought if you like your Shimano pedals.
Probably about 160 quid for pedals and kit. Not too bad I thought if you like your Shimano pedals.
But compared to a set of cleats for £12 or so it seems expensive. Even if you need a couple of sets of cleats for a couple of pairs of shoes.
I'm just genuinely curious as to why you'd go to the extra expense.
I wouldn't consider changing cleats, so if I wasn't on Keo's already then the Vector would be off my list. If I was a Shimano pedal man then the Vectors would be on my radar. Pushes the price up a bit but at least they'd now be a consideration.
Would be nice though if it was a move to a more generic product that supported lots of pedals.
Why not just change cleats though? Is there that much difference between the Keo and Shimano ones?
Pedals can be quite personal. Shimano feel quite different to Look IMO.
That's what I was wondering. I've never quite understood why people were so hung up on particular pedals but then again I've only ever tried Look.
They all feel different. Ease of entry/exit, float, stack height etc. Not to mention weight, bearing and cleat life and so on. If you're buying a set of Vector 2s it's hardly a stretch to buy the adapter set for SPD-SLs. Clever move I say.
Vector price drop now. At least in the US. Merlin doing Vector 2 for £1000. Might be tempted to get some in the US in a couple of months - $1000 there now.
Just ordered a rotor Rex 1.1 in power for the mountain bike.
UK RRP for Vector 2 now £899:
$900 from Clever Training with the DCR discount, I'd be more tempted to do that and suck up fees!
Yeah, Wiggle with platinum discount is now £792. German shops might be cheaper soon, might not. I'm going to the US in a few months, so Clever Training might well be the best option (around £640 plus taxes where applicable). Still slightly tempted by P1s, but they're $200 more now.
Just ordered a rotor Rex 1.1 in power for the mountain bike.
Out of interest, how are you getting on with the INPower software?
I'm finding that it's really unreliable and difficult to get the unit to connect and I was wondering if it was just me.
Just taken delivery of a red powerpod 8) (had to be red). I'm in the US for a couple of days and couldn't resist. Not only that, but the price comes under the customs allowance to bring it home. SO £200 for a force estimating power meter. Being a paid-up member of the geeky Physics squad, I rather like the underlying science behind this meter. And their obvious homage to Newton's second law.
Racing Wednesday evening, but sadly, the only bracket that will fit my Giant aero handlebar profile on the Propel with a Go Pro mount is one made my Giant, and that is on my other bike 120 miles from home 🙁 . I've ordered a K-Edge combo too. I will be running it on our fastest TT rider's bike to compare with his SRM because he's a little skeptical of the CdA estimate it provides.
So back to PowerCal I guess for now.
For those that might be interested, I have used the PowerCal to perform Cheung Aerolab analysis on Golden Cheetah to estimate CdA on a closed loop circuit with multiple reps. Haterz gonna hate but you may be surprised to know that the results are not as bad as you might have expected. My CdA (0.29) is probably rubbish based on 2 hours on the TT bike yesterday wearing winter kit and a gilet, but I'll see what it says when I switched to a skinsuit and pointy hat.
Interesting stuff TiRed. Let us know how you get on. PowerPod gets talked about on time trialling forums fairly regularly but the feedback isn't usually that good.
Notice the proper full blown Newton does support pairing up with a direct force PM for real time CdA estimation, which sounds pretty interesting, and what would tempt me into buying one.
The pairing is done via the software for calibration. Then you can have more confidence in CdA. Real-time CdA - what's not to like to keep that position on the TT bars?
Your fairly local, once I have it running, you are welcome to try it on that budget TT bike you've just built 😉 . I'm going to pair it with my Garmin speed only sensor that mounts to the hub as a fast swap between bikes. I'm back in a month too so might get a cheaper black one as well if it performs as I hope.
A bit OT but others have done similar things.... does anyone have a BB30, 170mm crank compatible road PM going spare that they want to sell? Not in to pedal based systems but Stages (I currently have a Shimano crank and adapter to BB30), Rotor or P2M would go down nicely, thank you 🙂
Not really what you're asking for, but I have a Powertap GS built into a Pacenti SL23 rim if that's of interest?
I am open to newer Powertaps which are hopefully less explodey than the older ones if the price stacks up with what is on offer vs new other style PM's. Can you drop me an email to watlingdaniel [at] gmail [dot] com with condition/ use/ price/ freehub type please?
Open to other suggestions too 🙂
A few months in with the PowerTap C1 now and thought I'd do a quick update. Picked it up to replace my old PowerTap as I was changing turbo to a direct drive one. It's seen a lot of turbo work in that time and I'm now mostly using it over BLE to Trainer Road on my iPhone.
Easy enough to install. I just picked up a cheap Tiagra 5 arm chainset and bolted it on and torqued it up. Then installed the chainset as usual.
After the first dodgy unit (low reading) the replacement seems consistent in power measurement compared to my other PMs. I did have a problem with some erratic cadence reporting which would cause big fluctuations in the power measurement. Bizarrely this seems to have been cured by adjusting the feet on my turbo to eliminate a bit of a backwards and forwards rock. This slight rocking must have somehow been messing with whatever accelerometers it uses to measure cadence.
Battery life is ok. Just put my second battery in since early Jan. Nowhere near as good as my old PowerTap which would last for months. I suspect BLE is a lot thirstier than ANT+.
The PowerTap app works ok. Though I really just use it for zero'ing and updating the firmware.
Overal happy with my purchase. Does the job. Was a very good price for a PM that measures total power (around 400 quid with some xmas discount.) And hasn't caused me any problems (well since having the first one replaced!) It could look a bit prettier but it's on the turbo mule so don't really care about that.
not really what you're asking for, but I have a Powertap GS built into a Pacenti SL23 rim if that's of interest
Also interested - email in profile
I was just thinking about powermeters last night after a training ride.
Does the positioning of the PM affect the reading that the PM gives?
For example, would I be correct in thinking that you would get a higher reading on the same ride from a pedal based system like the Vectors than you would from a hub based set-up like a Powertap hub?
If so, how much difference would you expect between the two?
Similarly, would you expect a higher reading from single sided system like Stages than you'd get from a proper dual-sided system like the Vectors?
