[Closed] what's this about lights being too bright?

I've got an exposure joystick helmet and lumicycle led3 XPG bar (150 lumen on low), both 2010 model lights.

Keep using those on low settings, angled down and ditch the flash modes?

I like having a flasher though, as I think it says "Bike", so maybe my cateye £30 job flashing on my bar?

Another problem with your all-singing all-dancing 1000-lumen special is that it won't have any side visibility. It's a bit worrying to see lights like the new Lezyne range, where they're sold in the UK as commuting lights but the housing sticks out round the emitter.

Edit: I've just had a look at the 2012 ones and they've added cutouts to the sides which sort this. So apologies to Lezyne (although their Femto Drive lights still have this problem).

Feenster. Driver was defo in the wrong - we should all take the time to make sure there is no margin for error before pulling out. But you asked about lights, so I guess you can expect a response about lights...

Some responses are a little harsh though. The trouble is, there's no clear guidance for cyclists and lighting in this country.

A while back I had a couple of incidents, where a car flashed and tooted me on an unlit road and I can only assume my light was blinding them, yet has nowhere near the power of the kind of lights that are common with MTBers these days. Then not long after, as I was climbing a hill (another unlit road) a car pulled up beside me, wound the window down, and a woman kindly pointed out that my rear light wasn't bright enough. I stopped further up the road to check and I couldn't see for a couple of minutes after, so genuinely wondered if she was taking the piss. Though it was just a cheap light.

Because of that, I trawled through the internet looking to see if there was any kind of guidelines or regulations for cyclists and couldn't find anything at all.

In fact, it puzzles me that most lights are designed to direct a beam, and there is virtually nothing (that I can see, outside of the dynamo market anyway) that creates a nicely bright, but well designed and diffused light to be seen with.

I've learnt a bit about lighting since then, like the stuff in this thread, but I'm still non the wiser about what light to choose when it comes to buying products. The fact is, very few of us know what we look like when we're approaching someone on a dark road in the rain from 100 yards.

When you buy a car, you can assume it's correct as is. You have 3 modes, and you know exactly which to use and when. Imagine if it wasn't like this. If cars didn't come with lights and you had to choose from a huge array of different types. It would be absolute mayhem. Of course, most people would go for the cheapest...little tea lights. Then you'd have boyracers with spotlights everywhere, even pointing out at the sides... It's difficult to blame cyclists in a world where this guidance doesn't exist.

Red on the back. White on the font. That's it.

> the fighter pilot stuff that was mentioned last week

?

Worth reading:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/smidsy-raf-pilots-view

the fighter pilot stuff that was mentioned last week

Basicly if you look left, look right, pull out. You only actualy check 2 points on the road, your brain interpolates the rest, if the distance in each direction is empty its quite poisible to miss a vehicle much closer.

A real world test is to look in a mirror, then look away without moving your head, then look back, you never see your eyes moving because untill you're looking back at them, if you get a friend to do it as well you can clearly see their eyes moving in a jerky movement, similarly watch someone reading a book, their eyes move in jerks accross the page, if your brain interpreted every image it recieved during the moving phase all you'd ever see is a blur.

Fighter piots are trained to look left, a bit less left, a bit less again, a bit right, a bit more right, right. That way they don't miss anything before an manouver. Drivers aren't taught this.

It's a bit worrying to see lights like the new Lezyne range, where they're sold in the UK as commuting lights but the housing sticks out round the emitter.

Fighter piots are trained to..../...Drivers aren't taught this.

Another problem with your all-singing all-dancing 1000-lumen special is that it won't have any side visibility.

That's why I use:

[img] http://www.lumicycle.com/image.aspx?product=GLOW_HALO;Warehouse;Warehouse [/img]
http://www.lumicycle.com/product/146/glow_halo/halogen-glow-ring.html

The fact is, very few of us know what we look like when we're approaching someone on a dark road in the rain from 100 yards.

Prop up your bike and walk 100 yards away. Check front, back and side visibility.

Obviously that doesn't help with any reflectives you wear while on the bike (or any that you accidentally cover while sat there).

For maximum critique, sit on the bike yourself and get your wife to have a look from a distance.

For maximum critique, sit on the bike yourself and get your wife to have a look from a distance.

surely "pinning" a driver who is waiting to pull out of a side street with a few hundred lumens form a helmet mounted spotlight is a good way to get you seen?

Pal I go out with has some fetish for dazzling oncoming cars.. has his hope vision 4 on max and points them straight into the eyes of oncoming cars.. Loads of times we've had cars have to slow/stop or put their high beam on. Drives the rest of us mad but he wont do anything about it. Small man syndrome at a guess.

I trawled through the internet looking to see if there was any kind of guidelines or regulations for cyclists and couldn't find anything at all.

The law is there, but as usual it's an ass.

You need a front lamp. It should be on the centre-line or off side of the vehicle and aligned to and visible from the front. It should be not more than 1500 mm above the ground. It should be white (or yellow if it is incorporated in a headlamp which is capable of emitting only a yellow light). It should be marked with a British Standard Mark namely BS 6102/3 (or its equivalent).

You need a rear lamp which should also be on the centre-line or off side of the vehicle aligned to and visible from the rear. It should also be not more than 1500 mm and not less than 350mm above the ground. It should have an angle of visibility 80O to the left and to the right and it should be red. It should be marked either with the British Standards Institution 3648:1963 or “BS 6102/3”.

You also need a rear reflector complying with the appropriate British Standard Mark between 350mm and 900 mm from the ground. New bikes will invariably be fitted with one: you wouldn’t take it off but it is unlikely to be your main line of defence.

Finally, you need two amber reflectors on each pedal complying with BS6102/2. Once again, you would not necessarily remove these from your pedal. They appear to be the least visible or useful of all lighting devices but if one breaks, as they invariably do, given their position, you should replace it in order to remain within the law.

In addition to the illegality of flashing lights, there are a number of other relevant restrictions:

There is a prohibition on lights which move. So you cannot attach a light (other than a reflector) to pedals or wheels.

No lamp should be used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to any persons using the road. Views will of course differ but the attentions of an enthusiastic policeman may be avoided if the angle of an intense front light is dipped slightly.

I think, based on this, 90% of cyclists after dusk are breaking the law.

http://www.cyclistsdefencefund.org.uk/cycle-lighting

yes even from this distance those bibs look too tight dear

😆 My 2 year old openly mocks me when I put them on.

(I got the bigger ones in the end - they are only ever worn under baggies!)

The driver will certainly see you, but the point of reference that you are giving him is 2 feet higher than he's expecting

*yes both would be nice but is it actually possible?

can anyone suggest any examples of good commuting lights

The only ones I've come across which have a shaped beam (equivalent to a car with dipped headlights) while still being bright enough for unlit roads are German-made dynamo lights from Busch and Muller, Supernova, etc. I've just got a B&M IQ Cyo and the difference in light pattern is astounding compared to my Hope Vision 4. The Hope beam lights up the tops of trees, whereas the B&M has a very definite cut-off (more or less where a driver's eye level is). The B&M also puts out a lot more light to the side.

The Exposure Strada should theoretically be similar, but I've heard that the dip function doesn't actually direct the beam downwards, it just shuts off one of the emitters.

You can compare a load of different lights' beam patterns side by side here:

http://road.cc/content/news/69237-big-roadcc-lights-test-2012

The Cyo looks crap compared to the Strada but that's partly to do with it shining the light down at the road rather than spreading it everywhere.

The problem with this thread is that it is possible criticize almost any bike light setup.

Use a traditionlal single (Ever Ready) light: too dim
Use two lights horizontally on the bars: Could be mistaken for a car at a greater distance.
Single bright light: Could be a motorbike.
Helmet light: You might blind driver when you look at them, Driver may not be looking for a light 5 feet in the air.
A bar light and a helmet light: Driver may not make a connection between two vertical lights and misinterpret what they see.
Flashing light: Driver may not be able to judge the distance.

etc etc. You come out with a setup and I can probably come up with an excuse as to why there is a problem.
The bottom line is that at night you need to make yourself visible. Everyone else is required to act with due care when they see the light. If you see a light on the road, you have to ensure that you are aware of what it is before you commit yourself to an action.
I accept that you have to be sensible and not deliberately blind people and that there are light set ups which are irresponsible. (I was once on an mtb ride where half a dozen of us went to cross a road. Despite me warning them, everyone else duly stared up the road with their helmet lights on. This resulted in all the traffic on a busy rush hour dual carriageway stopping to let us cross. I was mortified)
However the fact remains that the reason that people engage in this lumen based arms race is that drivers do not exercise due care. I would happily ride with a gloworm attached to the bars as long as I could be sure that people would look for it. As it is I use a flashing bar light and a fixed head torch. It ain't perfect but then what is?

I have a DX style light I got from MTB Batteries as my main front light (hi-mid-low-strobe-off, usually have it on low) Blackburn something as the main rear, some Leyzene Femto as backups front and back and these which I've found cut down the number of close passes I get in the dark*

[img] [/img]

Indicator thing is pretty useless though.

What I really want is a TRON style skin suit to wear.

*not my bike before I get abuse for the number of spacers

I have a Strada and it's pretty good, just about bright enough for fast road training on unlit country roads but the beam is well-designed so doesn't throw light everywhere. The 'dip' switch does indeed just turn off one of the LEDs but it is pretty effective (although with thick winter gloves on I occasionally accidentally turn off the light completely, makes downhills exciting if you were actually trying to turn it to max).

Basicly if you look left, look right, pull out. You only actualy check 2 points on the road, your brain interpolates the rest, if the distance in each direction is empty its quite poisible to miss a vehicle much closer.

My two worst accidents were caused this way, once in a car & once on a bike - the other drivers looked right & left & just drove straight into what was directly ahead of them.. me 🙁

I use a Blackburn x8 for commuting, the two lights have different focus & about three different levels of dip, don't know if they are still available though.

The lighting lumens race is a PITA. I use a cycle path on my commute, and cyclists approaching from the other direction with torches on max power make it impossible to see pedestrians using the path.

As is often the case, the Germans have it right - their lights (like the B&M referred to above) are properly designed to light up the road, not blind motorists.

I use a Hope vision one on fixed beam and alter the brightness to fit the conditions - I honestly don't think you need anything brighter AS LONG as you also wear a hi-vis top and have reflective stuff on your shoes, tyres and if you wear a helmet, on that. Tend to have two rear lights in case one fails, one on flash and one on steady. Nothing says bike to a motorist like hi-vis and reflectors

There really is a complete lack of battery powered lights, bright enough for riding at speed on an unlit road that don't dazzle drivers.

Further to the Exposure Strada (which uses a horizontal diffuser rather than a shaped beam) i've found these two

TreLock 950 LS (apparently the bracket isn't great).
http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/a38142/ls-950-control-ion-front-light.html?lg=en&cr=GBP&cn=gb
http://road.cc/content/review/47688-trelock-ls-950-ecopower-control-front-light

Philips Saferide 80 Lux
http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/a39159/bike-light-led-80-lux-black.html?lg=en&cr=GBP&cn=gb

Neither of them are that bright either.

I use a Maxx-D pointed a few feet in front of the bike. Maybe Use should just make a clip on 'hood' for the top, as they already make the Beacon diffuser thing that clips on.

You can also get this for DX/magicshine lights, which works like the Exposure Strada lens
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wide-Angle-Lens-4-MagicShine-Gemini-Lupine-Bike-Light-/280752532003

etc etc. You come out with a setup and I can probably come up with an excuse as to why there is a problem.

Wear a very bright reflective top and shine a moderate light or two onto yourself, then you'll instantly look like a person on a bike. WHen I start commuting on a bike that'll be me, no question.

[i]should just make a clip on 'hood' for the top[/i]

I've been thinking of fashioning something like this using a piece of Coke can and a ziptie/elastic band/piece of inner tube...

the biggest problem with visibility that I encounter is that the majority of my commute is against the backdrop of thousands of cars, motorbikes, buses, vans, lorries, shop fronts, street signs, advertising, street lights and a million other sources of light.
being seen amongst this lot is a challenge - in some cases, your silhouette is more visible than your light source...
for that reason, a bright flashing light can be seen/ recognised against other sources of light.

shine a moderate light or two onto yourself

Having a constant light pointing upwards at my face would drive me nuts, particularly on any unlit sections of road or cycle path. I tried using an Exposure Spark with a diffuser on the front and even though there was only a tiny bit of light escaping upwards, it was really irritating.

Glitchy bump post.

x2

Having a constant light pointing upwards at my face would drive me nuts,

Illuminating the rider sounds a good idea, how you'd do it effectively and practically I'm not sure

I have been told by a driver that an L and M urban 180 was bright enough to dazzle him .I have practically had to stop whilst driving because a couple cycled towards me using stupidly bright lights .Others have made the same comment to me as they know I cycle.

There really is a complete lack of battery powered lights, bright enough for riding at speed on an unlit road that don't dazzle drivers.
[...]

Philips Saferide 80 Lux

I take issue with your statement have the Saferide 80 and it's fine for me at 15-25 mph (not got the hills to test 30+). Only drawback is that at the high power, I get only an hour's light. As a result, I tend to use a bike with hub dynamo and the Saferide 60 version for winter commuting.

Illuminating the rider sounds a good idea, how you'd do it effectively and practically I'm not sure

[img] [/img]

well done you've come up with an outfit that makes a mamil look even more of a ****, quite an accomplishment

🙂

more seriously the visijax seems an ok idea but I hate waterproofs and it's just one item of clothing, maybe some tron style light piping that can be added over other clothes?

Think I've seen sam brown belts with a couple of feeble leds on, not great, dunno how well made they are (waterproof/long lasting etc). Any other stuff?

I have a Light and Motion urban 300 and it has two orange side lights. However these mostly just light my wrists. I point it at the floor in town.

I use chest mounted small flashers too, white on front and red on back - these help a lot ime.

being seen amongst this lot is a challenge - in some cases, your silhouette is more visible than your light source.

You, sir, would be better off with a shedload of reflective gear on, imo.

Or something like this

[img] [/img]

http://www.bicyclehero.com/gb/nathan-cyclists-reflective-led-vest-neon-yellow.html

I mostly wear black, and my bike is black too.
there are some reflective strips on the inside of the arms of an Oakley windproof I have which aren't really visible unless I surrender, which is weird.
I do wear a yellow hat though.

have you used one of those vests molgrips? Anyone else?

Bet they make you look a bit special but I could probably put up with that, I did wear a standard hi viz vest for a while but it was sweaty as anything despite being mesh and badly cut so it limited vision when looking over your shoulder

No.. I'd rather a better implementation actually. I thought Altura or someone made a jacket with them around the sides and shoulders, so you could still wear a backpack. Although that company does illuminated rucksack covers too which could work.

i use 3 cateye rear lights - one on the seat post, one in the centre of my camelbak and one at the side of the camelbak. all of them are on flash mode. i also use a high viz vest but the problem is that it kind of defeats the objective if i put the vest over my jacket then stick the camelbak on...so i have resorted to placing the vest on the camelbak (i use a camelbak havoc...which has an outer panel for holding a full face helmet or shin pads...i'm hoping that this is enough for me to be seen by drivers who pass me on the road.
as for the front set up i used to have two cateye opticube lights but my son broke one and i never bothered to replace it, but the one that still works is usually set on flash mode and it does have the light ring behind the lens so it can be seen from the side. as for my main lights, up until yesterday i was using my old cateye abs-30 lights - 20w spot/10w flood. i usually would point the spot towards the ground and the flood would point a bit more forward...these worked great but i always would have to remove them from the bike when i got to work and then refitting them would be a bit of a ballache....they also felt a bit heavy...
however they are now back in their box and i now have a C&B Seen Cree XM-L T6 1200 lumen headlight...i know this is overkill for road use especially in the superbright mode so i just use it in the lower brightness setting...but again i face the light downwards so i dont blind any oncoming traffic.
i also place this light on the left hand side of the bars so it doesnt dazzle drivers stuck in traffic as i zoom past them.
as with many cyclists who ride at night. i'm not entirely sure what type of light is legally acceptable or if indeed there is such a thing..i just tell myself that if i do as much as i possibly can to make myself as visible as possible to other road users...namely motorists then in thoery i should be ok, but i wouldnt go to the point of trying to blind them with my lights....

kind of defeats the objective if i put the vest over my jacket then stick the camelbak on...so i have resorted to placing the vest on the camelbak

How about:

[img] [/img]
http://www.respro.com/products/urban-commuting/cycling/hiviz_hump/

the trouble with relying on reflective clothes is that someone needs to be illuminating them for them to work.

so if a car is at a junction to the road you are on his lights are not going to be signing anywhere near you, so they high vis could be a waste of time.

loads of numbskulls cycle round london with just high vis on, which is bugger all use to pedestrians wanting to cross the road.

Several mildly bright flashing lights work well - I have two cateyes horizontally spaced on alternate flash on the front bars, so there is a horizontally moving bar of light that demands attention.

I have had several taxis stop themselves from pulling out on me with this setup, whereas with a single bright light or one flasher they have.

It is also fairly obvious that I am a bike as no motorcycle has lights like these.

Distance estimation might be compromised but we can't have everything. But the lights aren't particularly dazzling so it is not too bad.

This setup seems to be getting more popular in London, I hardly saw anyone else with it but now I do.

It is also fairly obvious that I am a bike as no motorcycle has lights like these.

Is there any harm in being mistaken for a motorcycle do you think?

I reckon cars are more likely to properly give way to a motorbike.
Guess they might misjudge your speed, but it's probably less of an issue for people to think you are faster than you actually are - the problems usually seem to start when they think you are slower.

Is there any harm in being mistaken for a motorcycle do you think?

having read that article someone posted last week from an RAF accident investigator I am thinking that a single, slowly moving, front light is not a good idea - based on the idea that the driver scans across a view but only actually sees several 'frames' of it and the brain interpolates the rest. The implied horizontal movement of a couple of flashers on the front is probably more likely to get attention as we are more evolved to see 'movement'.

In my experience a lot of the glare/dazzling problems from cycle lights could be reduced by more careful adjustment of the light beam angle. This may also be easier with some of the more expensive light units which tend to have better designed beam patterns when compared with cheaper units that go for more Lumens to make up for deficiencies in the beam pattern.

I take issue with your statement have the Saferide 80 and it's fine for me at 15-25 mph (not got the hills to test 30+). Only drawback is that at the high power, I get only an hour's light. As a result, I tend to use a bike with hub dynamo and the Saferide 60 version for winter commuting.

+1

Philips Saferide is much brighter than it sounds for two reasons. The quoted 270 lumens is accurate for what comes out of the light, whereas most lights quote what the datasheet says the LEDs will produce, or in the case of ebay specials, some multiple of what the LED will produce. Secondly, it all goes on the road, so you're not wasting 50% of the output lighting up the tree tops.

That said, it's easy enough to mod it to use an external battery and be a bit brighter at the same time - I posted some details [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/compulsive-bike-light-fettling-ultimate-road-set-up ]here[/url]. Sadly there's very little choice for lights with a proper beam pattern. It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with calls for something like the German regs before too long.