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Don't forget to factor in inflation!I remember when RockShox SIDs first came out in 1998 @£600, ~£950 in today's money, a Boxxer was £999 ~£1600 now.
As you said at the beginning of your post, top end kit has always been expensive, but look at entry level and mid range now compared to then, in 1998 £300 got you a basic rigid, but just about offroad capable MTB with crap brakes and the lowest SIS derailleurs, £400 before a named Groupset appeared (Altus)
£300-£400 now gets you either a decent rigid MTB with hydraulic discs, or a front sprung model with decent cable stoppers.
and £300 now is <£200 in old money, back then you could just about get a Raleigh Max from Halfords with plastic cantis for £200
I mean look what £400-£700 gets you now, amazing value!
The top end may be going up in price, but the cost of entry and the mid range kit is better value than ever before, and the top end is not representative of what the general bike buying public buy.Young riders are still around, they're probably riding at times you don't though! And the kids race entries are getting bigger and bigger round this way too.
My first MTB, a Spesh Rockhopper seemed pretty good at the time with STX bits, V brakes and descent spesh tyres.
Personally, I think value has gone down over recent years - a mate bought a Rockhopper Pro in 08/09 and the spec for the money seemed great - Avid Dics, Reba SL forks, XT rear mech. The equivelent bike now gets an X5 / Deore mix with Suntour forks and Tektro brakes. That's gone backwards from where I'm sitting, especially the forks. When I look back at previous bikes to the example I gave, you could see a steady improvement in spec / value but I think this has declined in recent years.
Some of the lower spec stuff these dats is great - e.g. Deore and I guess those that have been riding for a long time need to see this as entry to good stuff rather than XT.
Even at the local DH trails on a summers day when I should be WFH, there aren't many younger riders knocking about. Those sort of places were pretty popualar when I was younger.
In 1991 an entry level bike was £300 or so, but it came with 200GS which had plastic brake levers.
I bought a 92 Kona Fire Mountain which came with STX-RC groupset. Compare that to Deore now with its hydraulic discs - it's no comparison.
Personally, I think value has gone down over recent years - a mate bought a Rockhopper Pro in 08/09 and the spec for the money seemed great - Avid Dics, Reba SL forks, XT rear mech. The equivelent bike now gets an X5 / Deore mix with Suntour forks and Tektro brakes. That's gone backwards from where I'm sitting, especially the forks.
This echoes my experience and observation. While entry level bikes are undeniably better now than they were in 2005 (compare a new vs old Specialized Hardrock for example), the middle ground has climbed inexorably higher in terms of cost. We seem to forget that back in 2009, we saw SLX almost double in price overnight due to "currency fluctuations", with increases across the board for XT, Deore and XTR. Back in 2005, £1,100 would have bought me an S-Works Enduro frame (itself up £100 on the previous year) with a scandalous £650 being splurgeable on Fox forks. These days, the nearest equivalent frame and fork deal is at least 2.5x that...
Is the bike industry complaining at the moment? Cos if not, what's the issue? It's a great time for biking ; lots of choice, for consumers. across all price spectrums...apologies if written in OPs post the answer to my question - it was too long for me to read. :D..
bunched riding allows for very pleasant chatting and one mans 'etiquette' is anothers rules to ensure the safety of all.
Compare that to Deore now with its hydraulic discs - it's no comparison.
How much does it cost Shimano to manufacture a groupset now compared to back then? Apart from the brakes little has significantly changed and even with the brakes its not that a big a change really.
Apart from the brakes little has significantly changed
Not sure about that.
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So apart from all the stuff that's changed, nothing has changed!
molgrips - Member
Apart from the brakes little has significantly changed
Not sure about that
Look different, **** all difference in use.
Apart from the disc brakes, hollowtech cranks and BB, 2x and 10 speed, so all the stuff that's different - it looks far more durable to me. Those pressed steel mechs went floppy really quickly.
cynic-al - MemberLook different, **** all difference in use.
Deore today performs way better than I remember STX working- handles mud better, shifts better, and it's managing more gears and wider ranges too. And now clutches too.
ctrl C...ctrl V for bluehelmets post.Nail on head.
Bike Industry=Importers/manufactures.They are doing quite well.Sales have levelled out this last year but they are selling more than 5 years ago.
Bike Industry=Shops.The over abundance of shops (many opened on the promise of an ever increasing market) and internet pricing has lead to a lot of price based competition and so reduced margins.Some shops simply can't operate on those numbers.....many (more) will fail (long established/newly set up/some good/some bad).
Deore today performs way better than I remember STX working- handles mud better, shifts better, and it's managing more gears and wider ranges too. And now clutches too.
Ok, but APART FROM ALL OF THAT it's exactly the same!
Back in 2005, £1,100 would have bought me an S-Works Enduro frame (itself up £100 on the previous year) with a scandalous £650 being splurgeable on Fox forks. These days, the nearest equivalent frame and fork deal is at least 2.5x that...
The 2005 S-works Enduro Frame- you can only buy S-works frame only was an Alu Frame
My trusty inflation calculator only goes to 2014 which give you....
1467 quid to spend on your new frame, add in another 50-100 quid for the last couple of yours and your budget is 1500-1600, spec don't sell Alu Enduro Frames so hard to compare but AFAIK the entry level alu bike built is 2,200. The last Alu SC VPP's were around 1,800, an Orange 5 frame this year is 1,600 and a Alpine 160 is 1,700.
So how much is a RIP OFF and how much is just inflation?
£1,600 for a single pivot frame with no import taxes, duties or distributor margin to pay? You think that's good value to someone relatively new to the hobby?
Thank **** for my awesome Meta V4 that was half that.
hora - Member
£1,600 for a single pivot frame with no import taxes, duties or distributor margin to pay? You think that's good value to someone relatively new to the hobby?Thank **** for my awesome Meta V4 that was half that.
Not at all Hora, if you read what I was pointing out it was that inflation is one of the main reasons that things cost more now than they did then. As there wasn't a direct comparison with a Spec frame that was comparable I picked some that were.
Good value is down to your expectations, values and experiences not a number.
You have also helped prove the point that mountain biking isn't getting more expensive with a frame that was actually cheaper than the 2005 one the guy was going on about.
edit doesn't your Commencal also have no duty, import taxes or distributor margin?
Thing is, some boutique brands carry a boutique premium, as in any market sector - but there's so much choice out there now at lower prices too from things like the Bossnut through YT, Canyon, Commencal etc all producing bloody good bikes at silly cheap money. Then you see Specialized respond by lowering their prices, giving more choice to consumers who may prefer to go in store rather than online. MTB is in a good place now for quality, choice and value.
Retailers need to realign with a changing market - focus on the workshop, directly target direct brand bike riders for their workshop needs (I know one very good shop who makes 70% of their workshop revenue from YT/Canyon owners - and at full rate as there's no haggling on the basis of having bought the bike there), and then do custom builds for the high end customers, your SC, Yeti etc.
The market is evolving - but the opportunities are there as part of that.
custom builds for the high end customers, your SC, Yeti
there's bugger all money in that.People buying those are the people who know how much stuff is on bikesulike.de .You're expected to carry lots of demo bikes to test and what is this weeks hot brand...is next weeks bionicon.You can't do them all.
Not sure on sc in the UK but they arrive here needing built from scratch all the bits in packaging even for a standard build that's a fair bit of work
From my observations (And I once looked into this quite carefully), using Specialized as the example, bikes up until MY2009 were increasing in value, on an RRP of parts vs. RRP of bike basis. Year on year better spec and same price give or take. From 2009 > 2013 prices rose by over 10% per year. I haven't looked at more recent equivalents but I suspect its slowed down as the pound has strengthened a bit against the dollar, and alot against the euro, which keeps the US brands a bit lower priced, and means they are competing against very cheap euro brands.
What happened?
Still making and sellng bikes and bits, AFAIK?
1990 my 274GBP months wages bought me a Reynolds 500 [s]anchor[/s] frame with Exage, steel bars and seatpost, Biopace chainrings, Araya rims and plastic brake levers with cantis at the other end. Rode it like I stole it until it died. i know this because I bought a Dawes Tracker.
2011 the same money (in the sales tbf) would buy me a 6061 [s]anchor[/s] frame, hydraulic brakes, coil forks with lockout, alloy bars and seatpost, Deore/XT running gear. I know this because am riding a 2011 GT Avalanche 1.0 disc
Today? Quite confident I could go into a store and buy a new mtb that works fine - but right now my used bikes seem still to have more life in them than me so I'll continue using them/upgrading parts as they wear out until I:
A. Sell them all and buy TOBTRTA (The One Bike To Rule Them All)
or
B. The industry deems that 26" forks and wheels are dead and unsupported.
or
C. See my last days out buying and restoring cool and not so cool stuff off Retrobike. By which time 29ers could be making an appearance... 😯
Now I have to find some new old wheels for this Raleigh Sirocco...
Bikes are ace. Yes my seemingly bombproof 1990s square taper XT BB/drivetrain feels so much better than my octalink Alivio one. Have no idea what a modern XT drivetrain feels like to compare.
If 650b disappears in favour of whatever (plus etc etc), I'll sack MTB off completely once my current bike dies. Just not prepared to be had over again.
Couldn't you just replace your dead bike with whatever's available at the time, ride [i]that[/i] till it dies, and repeat?
It'll still be good, you'll still have fun, and you'll be largely immune to the changes in standards in the meantime.
Like amedias said on page 4, if you fall into category 2 and just get something and ride it then it's all good.
IME bikes don't die very often, this may be a bit triggers broom but until you actually crack the frame bikes live on. Most of my bikes have gone through several incarnations, including one* that's had everything including the rear shock replaced, most things more than once. Replacing a bike coz one or two parts are knackered/worn out seems incredibly wasteful.Couldn't you just replace your dead bike with whatever's available at the time,
I've mainly stuck to 26" wheels, straight fork steerers, threaded BBs and QR frames (atleast 20 and 15mm forks only [i]normally[/i] mean a hub end cap swap). All that stuff is still available (currently) but maybe that's only because it was the standard for so long. How long is the boost standard going to last? Is 27.5 going to get usurped in the not too distant? (crosses fingers for a 26" revival)
Are you still going to be able to get [i]ok[/i] parts for your bike 5 years down the line (I'm talking decent work horse parts not bling or cheapo basic)
But then, maybe manufacturers are getting around that by ensuring frames don't last 5 years any more 😉
*and it's still a bloody good bike, very capable and a hell of a lot of fun.
It'll be interesting when someone rediscovers how fast a really light 26" bike can accelerate due to lighter and smaller wheels.
molgrips - I got told off for posting the giant ad that said 27.5 was better as smaller wheels accelerated faster. Apparently that doesn't apply to 26"
1300g wheel set and 450g tyres...
IME bikes don't die very often, this may be a bit triggers broom but until you actually crack the frame bikes live on.
True, but it can get to a point where it starts to make less and less sense to keep doing it IMO.
I bought a new bike in 2014 when the bike I bought in 2006 needed new forks, pretty much a complete new drivetrain and new shifters. Sorting it out more or less like for like was going to be between half and 2/3rds the cost of a new bike so I took the opportunity!
I guess this does depend on where in the market you're sitting though, and might not apply if you have a Nikolai or something.
Are you still going to be able to get ok parts for your bike 5 years down the line (I'm talking decent work horse parts not bling or cheapo basic)
Well people have been saying that for >5 years already, I remember people moaning about it in the 90s.
So I guess the test is, is there any 5 year old bike you can't fix/get replacement parts for now?
how about 10 years old?
how about 20?
30?
apart from a few exceptions* which really are edge cases, and can still probably be worked around if you try hard, you'll find that it's still quite easy to keep those bikes running with acceptable parts.
* the place you'll run into a genuine issue is 1 inch steerer suspension forks. you're reduced to NOS or 2nd hand for that now, btu then 1inch sus forks wasn't really a 'thing' for very long anyway and any bike form that era still in use is going to be on the kind of duty where it would be fine with a rigid one anyway, and as above, NOS or 2nd hand are still possibilities.
Deore today performs way better than I remember STX working- handles mud better, shifts better,
Obviously it is personal experience but I've always felt that my old STX running on Deore thumbshifters worked much better than newer stuff in mud and the difference in shifting speed is negligible.
The only drivetrain components I can remember being particularly poor were some SunTour Microdrive bits in the 90's.
Bit fiddly re setup and seem to wear quickly.
Shimano stuff just works, doesn't it?
I don't think RockShox forks are as good as they were.
Or Brooks saddles, for that matter.
The industry deems that 26" forks and wheels are dead and unsupported.
hasn't happened though, I bought some Hope Enduro rims a few months ago from a bike shop in 26" flavour, the world didn't stop.
best "value" model year I remember?
2008 Specialized Rockhopper Disc
M4 Aluminium frame, RS fork with hydraulic damper, Avid hydraulic disc brakes, SRAM gearing
we used to sell these around £600, cracking bike for the money, certainly capable of "mountain bike" rides on rough ground and in wet / muddy conditions
I remember the prices creeping up and the specs sliding down every following model year
I am an average rider, not really all that good. I can get my wheels off the ground now and then when my mojo is working right and I like riding single track in the woods as fast as I can (i.e not all that fast). I'm 45 so not as fit as I once was, I'm a father of two so not as able to recover from getting badly damaged as I once was and I'm not loaded so 5k for a bike is not really money well spent.
Happily I can keep my old blur LT going for a few more years with good reliable parts if I want to or I could spend 2k on something end of last years line and get a truly amazing bike well beyond my abilities (like those carbon triggers Paul's were knocking out). The industry moves because all industries do but in general you can get a lighter, better, safer, faster and more reliable bike than you ever could back in the "golden days" for much less money (except SC who are right up themselves now). MTB isn't cheap, it never was but I have always been into the expense and the inconvenience. Some innovations have been questionable but you don't have to keep up with the trends, new bikes are optional after all.
I feel that the scene has become too diluted with niches, and that there is a perception that certain types of trail can/should only be ridden by certain niches of mtb bike. I also think that the mtb scene went through a period of snobbishness where people looked down their noses at others for not having a certainty of bike. Im thinking of the era when all-Mountain bikes came about, and having ahardtail was looked down upon. It was the way I felt when out and about.
Compare that to Road, the scene is more level in that irrespective of spec, a road bike is generally suitable for enjoyable Road riding.
With the niche thing comes the back of the mind thought of "am I riding the right type of bike?" rather than "I'm enjoying this", and that can serve to bring down the pervasive ethos of the mtb scene.
Can someone make a video of a group of people riding together on different bikes? Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.
Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.
Pfft. If you're not riding Boost, 27.5+, and don't have a fat bike in the shed, you need to get with the programme.
It's no surprise that 2008 may have represented peak value for bicycles in the UK - the entire industry runs in USD but here we buy in GBP. Look at the exchange rate since the late '80s, when the MTB became popular in the UK - see the best year?
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chiefgrooveguru - Member
It's no surprise that 2008 may have represented peak value for bicycles in the UK - the entire industry runs in USD but here we buy in GBP. Look at the exchange rate
Look facts like that and inflation are just not welcome here, the only facts that matter is that people say it's all got too expensive and it's all profiteering and it's all a mass conspiracy....
molgrips - Member
Can someone make a video of a group of people riding together on different bikes? Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.
Sounds like every ride I do, some days I pick the bike that's better suited but other times I don't.
Might try and grab a vid from tonight but it will involve everything from a 29r HT (possibly rigid) through to 170mm Bikes with everything in between.
Should have taken a pic from Sunday's ride. Me on my old Patriot, my mate on a fat bike.
[i]currently[/i]well, 1" example you gave was ditched reasonably early on, an even shorter lived "standard" was GF's 1.25" steerer. A few things have been tried and dropped as yeah it adds soemthing but not enough to leave what we already have. Otherwise a lot of stuff on your 5yo bike has been around possibly since the dawn of mtb. Dropping a well established standard should have some proper advantages, you can only get altus/acera 7spd gear currently, sure it'll do the job (breifly) but it's not work horse stuff is it, however I'm fairly happy with the gain from the extra 2/3/4 gears (the switch from 7 to 8 seemed pretty pointless - as did 9-10 until 1x became a thing). 26 to 27.5 which was prety much universally accepted across the industry, serioiusly harming the 26" market if not actually killing it off....for what gain? Like i said imperceptibly bigger wheels doesn't seem like much of a trade off. Boost might be great for big wheels (26 managed without 🙂 ) and become a thing, we'll see,So I guess the test is, is there any 5 year old bike you can't fix/get replacement parts for now?
I may well be worrying for no reason and 27.5 and other new "standards" will be around for ages but the suddenly dropping a standard that's been there since the start for seemingly no reason seems a worrying trend.
1" example you gave was ditched reasonably early on
This is the only one that ever really holds any water, and even then I still maintain not as big a deal as people thing, on the road even less so, but look at MTB:
[i]headsets [/i]- available
[i]stems[/i] - available and shimmable
[i]rigid forks[/i] - limited choice, but available if you're unlucky enoguh to break your existing fork
[i]sus forks[/i] - not available, but then as we said earlier, wasn't a thing for long anyway, chances of you right now in 2016 needing to find a replacement boinger for you 1 inch steerer'd MTB are slim. NOS and 2nd hand can still keep them going, especially as any fork of the right length for that era is likely to be one with swappable steerers.
The 1 inch steer situation is the trickiest one, but it's not insurmountable and it certainly isn't enough for you to throw a frame in the bin because it can't ever be ridden again.
an even shorter lived "standard" was GF's 1.25" steerer
no points for that example as very easy to fit a reducer and 1 1/8th headset and carry on, and bearings for your old 1.25" headset probably still available.
you can only get altus/acera 7spd gear currently
no points there as you *can* still get it, chains and cassettes not a problem, and if you've broken a 7speed shifter then 8speed will work with one less click, I think you'd also be surprised what NOS stuff is out there if you look, You could also consider drive train upgrade and keep the bike rolling, again, not a deal breaker.
but it's not work horse stuff is it
I disagree, it absolutely is workhorse stuff, especially on the consumables, and the only 7-speed [i]specific [/i]component apart from the chain and cassette of a 7speed drive train is the shifter, and as above, options are there.
One of my road bikes is still 7 speed, and HG50 cassettes shift and last as well as ever, and I can still walk into a LBS and buy one, don;t even have to hunt them down.
I do understand where the the worry about droppping of older standards comes from, I really do, but the reality is that it's not a major issue, for those that want to keep old kit going parts are available, and for those that don't well, they've moved on anyway so they're not affected.
I think a lot of people conflating "dropping a standard" with "parts unavailable and my bike becomes useless", when actually all it means "new bikes might not use this standard any more"
Those two situations are very different things.
Post-googling-update...
interesting quote from a 650B thread on this very forum 2 years ago....
decent 26" stuff will be around for a [b]couple of years[/b] and then start to disappear to the point of not being able to keep a 26er going.Find good 7spd or 8spd now, won't be long before 9spd is off the menu as well.
Find a good cartridge bottom bracket, etc.Yes you will be able to find the cheap stuff but that is all you will find.
Well we are a couple of years down the line and the important bits, tyres, rims and forks are still not a problem, let alone starting to disappear.
The drivetrain one makes me a chuckle a bit too, as after 3-5 years of decent use pretty much every part of a drivetrain is in need of replacement anyway, rings and cassettes will have been done a few times already, mechs bashed to bits, shifters gone floppy etc. so why wouldn't you look at replacing with newer stuff? It will retro-fit jsut fine, it's not like you can't 10 or 11speed on a bike that came with 8 or 9 speed.
Another one, which is demonstrably not true if you look around online.
Have a look at the choice of rim brake rims, not much in the way of decent stuff now.
This same discussion gets trotted out ad-infinitum as new stuff comes out, but people still keep riding their bikes, and still keep fixing them, tell you what, in 5 years time if you can't get some 26inch tyres for your MTB, I'll buy you a new (28.3inch by then I'm sure) bike so you can stop worrying about it 😉
I think a lot of people conflating "dropping a standard" with "parts unavailable and my bike becomes useless", when actually all it means "new bikes might not use this standard any more"Those two situations are very different things.
I agree up to a point, but try finding a straight steerer 20mm fork
I agree up to a point, but try finding a straight steerer 20mm forkI think a lot of people conflating "dropping a standard" with "parts unavailable and my bike becomes useless", when actually all it means "new bikes might not use this standard any more"
Those two situations are very different things.
You've absolutely just proven my point there!
lack of, or difficulty sourcing, one specific component does not render the bike obsolete.
I can only assume you'd be looking for such a model because you had one and it's now broken/worn out?
so your options are:*
> buy a 15mm or QR fork (and convert and your wheel)
OR
> fix the broken bit of your current fork
OR
> buy a NOS fork
Or at absolute worst, buy a 2nd hand one, they're out there, your bike is not consigned to the bin and will be back riding as good as ever in no time.
* which funnily enough are pretty the same options had you just broken a 2 week old current fork, repair or replace.
Yes I get the point you are making.
I've got a 2010 5-Spot which I absolutely love - I think its the last year they did a straight steerer which is the only thing that really dates it.
Fork is fine I just know my choices will be very limited if I ever want to change, but realistically I'll probably just run the bike until it dies as I still really enjoy riding it.
Have a look at the choice of rim brake rims, not much in the way of decent stuff now.
first site I go to, aka my usual online store.
20 pages worth of rim brakes and spares (MTB ones... road will naturally have a lot more)
Shimano XT, Cane Creek, ... even some Magura Hydraulic ones.
Quick look out of my office window with a bike shed outside... almost every single bike is 26er or 700c with mostly V-brakes.
And a quick nose at the cassettes, and I'd say most are 6,7 or 8 speed, with only the newest big brand names being 9speed.
Find good 7spd or 8spd now, won't be long before 9spd is off the menu as well.
well 2 years later, same shop, 6,7,8,9,10 and 11speed cassettes all available. and chains too.
feel sorry for those with 5speed.
Find a good cartridge bottom bracket, etc.
also 2 years on...
square taper cartidge BB from €9.90 each up to €175.90 each for Tune cartridge BB (I guess that must be a good one).
BB is less of an issue, since they're all BSA 68 threads, and easily replaceable with pretty much any crankset/bb out there (bar all the pressfit nonsense, and the fact that the square taper longevity will outlast a standard, unlike it's more modern replacements).
No issue whatsoever getting parts for my 1989MY roadbike, other than the fact that hubs/wheels are now all 130mm rather than 126mm OLN.
first site I go to, aka my usual online store.20 pages worth of....
I think that's half the issue Mr Rocketeer, you obviously know where to look, but most people get blinkered by what CRC/Wiggle/Evans are currently selling, and only see the shiney new stuff on display in their LBS, and either forget or don't realise that there's other online shops that cater for older and more traditional markets, and the many warehouses and stockrooms of LBS that hide the less blingy stuff
feel sorry for those with 5speed
I don't feel that sorry for them, still 5 speed freewheels aplenty from suppliers if you ask.
other than the fact that hubs/wheels are now all 130mm rather than 126mm OLN.
and even that's not a problem is it, you can cold set your frame, or re-space your hubs, or just squeeze it in!
long live old bikes! 😀