[Closed] UCI bans trans women from female events

Need to have a fair field so I am for it.

Need to have a fair field so I am for it.

So everybody should be same weight, same height, same VO2 etc, etc,. ?

Good,

So everybody should be same weight, same height, same VO2 etc, etc,. ?

So why have men and women races? Let's just have open races for everyone.

Get rid of men and women's football and have mixed games.

I'll be amazed if a trans man ever qualifies, speaks volumes on fairness, nuff said.

It totally makes sense to me.

Good news. About time.

A blanket ban makes no sense at all to me.

I'm worried for female athletes with unusual hormone patterns now.

I wonder if this thread will get to a second page before the usual suspects descend and get it locked?

At this moment in time with the science currently available, it appears people who have been through male puberty have an advantage over those who don’t. Depending on the sport it can be more or less advantageous. I think I swimming for example the bigger wingspan and hands / feet etc are more likely to be an advantage. In other sports perhaps not so much.

Some trans people (not all - e.g Caitlin Jenner is opposed to trans women in women’s sport) seem to be making out that it’s not fair as they aren’t being included based on what gender they identify as.

However this is about physical attributes and how they effect sporting prowess - not an idealogical resistance to including them.

People with unusual development is a very difficult one though and I don’t think there’s an obvious answer. Making them go through operations or take drugs to surpress testosterone doesn’t feel ethical. It’s totally different to trans where people are deliberately taking treatment to try and swap sex physically as much as they are able to.

About time they listened to female athletes and make it fair.

A blanket ban makes no sense at all to me.

Easiest and fairest way for all without going into detailed medical history, blood/hormone tests and the (perceived?) unfairness and definite confusion of this trans woman being allowed but that trans woman being denied.

Good that there's some international clarity on the issue now anyway, avoids national federations taking their own line on the subject and different rules in different countries.

And FWIW, I agree with the UCI.

I declare a chip in the game.

At the highest levels, i can see why it is needed to ensure 'fairness' even though i still think the jury is out on whether having gone through male puberty actually conveys an advantage in all sports. For example while additional arm and hand size may be an advantage in swimming, additional bone mass and size but with reduced power may not be in an endurance / power-to-weight sport like cycling. Pippa York's cafe ride on GCN should be required viewing before anyone gives their opinion as fact. So, like I say, needed for now, but still a lot of understanding to do and if evidence comes back differently then we should reconsider.

[sadly, looks like episode has been removed, and a bit of digging makes me wonder is there was a backlash against it]

But at semi-competitive / social levels..... I really worry. Example being a trans athlete that plays football socially or in a local league. You know, like the Surrey County Women's league. Should a trans athlete be allowed to play in a team or do they have to play in a team of their birth gender?

Or only in leagues or competitions for trans athletes? How many do we think there are to have a competition of enough depth and quality? Or does it ultimately mean they can't enjoy the benefits and enjoyment of sport - sorry, but that was your choice, tough.

That's not inclusive and denies someone their identity twice, first their gender identity and then their identity as an athlete.

A blanket ban makes no sense at all to me.

Blankets are still allowed - in all categories.

NYT have a 5min video of a trans runner which is the best thing I've seen on this subject:

At the highest levels, i can see why it is needed to ensure ‘fairness’

Surely fairness should be the defining point of sport at all levels?

As a former 2nd/3rd cat (male) roadie, I could quite adequately compete in amongst most women cyclists in a Women's road race - but it'd be very unfair on them. No-one at that level is winning ££££ or making a career out of it but it'd still be unfair to compete with/against them.

For me there is no fair solution to this.  The rights of the two groups are in conflict.

Excellent.

They  have male and female classes, but should also male trans and female trans classes too so nobody has any sort of advantage

Surely fairness should be the defining point of sport at all levels?

At all levels? I think that has been the case historically but at lower levels, and in the modern age, I think increasingly there is a blend of the need for fairness and inclusivity. It might be great if there could be competitive and non-competitive options but I don't think there will ever be critical mass to enable that. Hence back to the questions I posed specifically.  We're not talking here about international or national level athletes, what I mean is, is there a big issue if a trans footballer is able to play in division 3 of the local league as a result of their 'advantage' compared to Div 5

As a former 2nd/3rd cat (male) roadie, I could quite adequately compete in amongst most women cyclists in a Women’s road race – but it’d be very unfair on them.

Pippa York came 4th in the TdF; post transition she feels she isn't even close to competitive with female athletes. What you could do as a 2/3 cat racer man is irrelevant. A transathlete is not a man entering women's events (that'll get the argument started)

whY cant trans women do trans-women only events, that would seem a lot fairer.
then maybe they could allow 'others' to join in with them, and everyone would be happy.

whY cant trans women do trans-women only events, that would seem a lot fairer.

and

but should also [have] male trans and female trans classes too so nobody has any sort of advantage

Fairer on a sporting level, or on a human level?

How many transwomen are there to make it a competition? And as per my posts, what if they are a local league level team player? You simply won't have the numbers to form a local league of transathletes, so do you let her join a local women's team, or it's simply tough, we deny you your identity twice?

I've seen the NYT runner article before but watched it again. Two things stuck out

on one hand

- I've actually found I've got faster vs women athletes

on the other

- running has probably saved my life

How do you balance the two?

A big thumbs up for me. Rightly or wrongly some ladies (and men) take grass roots sport seriously and take great pride in winning their events, regardless of how far below elite level they are

the only two ladies I’ve spoken to about the issue think it would be bang out of order to have to compete against trans athletes. Whilst not ideal, imo the rights of the many trump the rights of the few when it comes to this issue.

whY cant trans women do trans-women only events, that would seem a lot fairer.
then maybe they could allow ‘others’ to join in with them, and everyone would be happy.

I think that they see themselves as, and chemically are/are close to, their chosen gender. A separate category could be seen as "othering" them, and potentially outing them as trans, which could be really harmful for younger people who aren't so comfortable. I suspect it's about normalising it. Plus, the fun of competing is the competition, how big is the field going to be, if it exists at all?

Like I said earlier, I'm a real fence sitter on this one. That video is great @legometeorology

alric
Free Member

whY cant trans women do trans-women only events, that would seem a lot fairer.

Cos there basically aren't any, and where they do exist they're ignored. For amateurs, fine, for athletes not so fine.

tjagain
Full Member

For me there is no fair solution to this. The rights of the two groups are in conflict.

Yip, exactly this. I don't know if the UCI have called this one right or not but I know it's not simple, or "common sense", and that no matter what way you go someone's going to lose out. And frankly they're not the organisation you'd choose if you were wanting a nuanced or world-leading approach, since they can't even be trusted to leave your seat angle alone let alone your sexual identity.

I've not seen anyone come up with a good solution for the outright abuse approach- ie, "I am racing unsuccesfully as a man so I will pretend to identify as a woman". Apart from it still having never happened, because it turns out hardly anyone that isn't actually trans actually wants to put themselves through that. My own feeling is still that it mostly seems to be a reaction to something that could happen, but in practice isn't happening.

But at the very least I hope people can accept that it's going to suck for some people, mostly people who've already had the shitty end of the stick more often than most. It's not so much about the real impact on the sport, and more about the exclusionary effect of the ruling for theoretical or even nonexistant athletes, because of what that says to everyone else.

Plus, the fun of competing is the competition, how big is the field going to be, if it exists at all?

or in team sport, can you even raise a team let alone a league?

Rightly or wrongly some ladies (and men) take grass roots sport seriously and take great pride in winning their events, regardless of how far below elite level they are

I agree. But at below elite level, and considering individual sport as opposed to team, is this actually very different to the MTBing guy who should be racing sport or open category but keeps entering fun so they can win it?

Is it really an issue if the transwoman enters the right event for their ability and displaces some other athletes by finishing 15th in sport so all the others finish one place lower? You'd exclude them to prevent that happening - that's my worry if blanket bans are the outcome of what (back to my OP) I actually support at the very highest level.

I don't believe that men (there, I said it) pretend to be TG just to start winning events. But if they are then deal with that individually. We are taking here about some very marginalised people who also happen to enjoy sport and are at risk of being excluded from that.

I don’t believe that men (there, I said it) pretend to be TG just to start winning events

I don’t believe that either. And to be clear I’m not belittling TG folks, I can fully sympathize with their predicament

is this actually very different to the MTBing guy who should be racing sport or open category but keeps entering fun so they can win it?

well anyone that does that is a dickhead tbf, so whilst I don’t perceive it as the same, I’d  say it was equally unfair. And I’d argue there should be rule in place to stop that happening also

take the example of my regional tt series. Some of the ladies train quite hard for it. There is no ‘sport/fun’ category. And it’s quite competitive. As a bog standard male rider I absolutely hammer them week in week out despite being a (relatively) much poorer ‘athlete’. Whilst I can’t prove it, I’d be confident that even if I met the criteria of a TG athlete, I’d be able to compete against them. Even if I lost 15% of my current power it would be more than the ladies put out, and some of them aren’t much lighter than me!

Is it really an issue if the transwoman enters the right event for their ability and displaces some other athletes by finishing 15th in sport so all the others finish one place lower?

it is for the woman who comes 16th. Why are her rights, desires and opportunities less important?

crazy-legs’

Surely fairness should be the defining point of sport at all levels?

That and participation, you want everyone to be able to take part. Its almost impossible to balance those two though.

Why not add an "Open" category? anyone who doesn't meet the specific criteria for other categories goes in open. So there is Men, Women and Open, everyone gets to compete that way.

Whatever the outcome there are a lot more female athletes than trans women athletes, so given that one group is going to be disappointed with any outcome you may as well favour the majority. It's a philosophical issue really, is it better to be unfair to a small minority rather than the large majority?

Whilst I can’t prove it, I’d be confident that even if I met the criteria of a TG athlete, I’d be able to compete against them. Even if I lost 15% of my current power it would be more than the ladies put out, and some of them aren’t much lighter than me!

It's such a shame that (or so it appears) that the Pippa York video has had to be taken down. Because she would very much dispute this.

is this actually very different to the MTBing guy who should be racing sport or open category but keeps entering fun so they can win it?
well anyone that does that is a dickhead tbf, so whilst I don’t perceive it as the same, I’d  say it was equally unfair. And I’d argue there should be rule in place to stop that happening also

I agree. So sort that rule, don't exclude all transathletes because one of them might potentially be a dickhead.

Is it really an issue if the transwoman enters the right event for their ability and displaces some other athletes by finishing 15th in sport so all the others finish one place lower?

it is for the woman who comes 16th. Why are her rights, desires and opportunities less important?

I'll reiterate again, I'm not talking about national or international level competition to find who's the best in the country / world......so sorry, but I'm going to disagree. If the solution is to exclude TG athletes from all the enjoyment and positive benefits of sport because someone who would have finished 15th in the local club TT now finishes 16th..... I think that as an outcome, as an infringement of her rights to be one place lower on a results sheet that no-one cares about apart from her..... is far less significant. But I respect that YMMV.

Years of genetic doping provide an advantage that a modest reduction in the performance enhancing drug, testosterone, cannot totally ameliorate.  I think the post-puberty rule is reasonable. It is remarkable how competitive some of the trans athletes have been, given some of their relatively modest previous palmares. As a 50 year old Cat 2 racer, my performance would have been competitive in the female peleton. The gap between male and female is about twenty five years. And I raced some elite women of a Tuesday evening, and it was a pleasure to have them in the bunch.

Whatever the outcome there are a lot more female athletes than trans women athletes, so given that one group is going to be disappointed with any outcome you may as well favour the majority.

It's not solely the size of group - depends what you consider the relative harm to be. As per example above balance coming 16th instead of 15th vs feeling further marginalised and excluded, not just as a woman but also excluded now as an athlete.

I mean there are less disabled people than able bodied so should we stop support and reduce the tax bill for the able bodied, they're the majority?

theotherjonv
Full Member

I don’t believe that men (there, I said it) pretend to be TG just to start winning events. But if they are then deal with that individually.

So the question is, how? As far as I can see it always ends up in the same place, ie, sports event organisers making decisions on people's gender identity and the validity of that person's decisions. (basically the same problem that you always face with these questions, only less well qualified and resourced than usual)

oldnick
Full Member

It’s a philosophical issue really, is it better to be unfair to a small minority rather than the large majority?

The trouble with that logic is it means the majority always get favoured and the minority always gets unfairly treated. It's not a good way to decide, well, anything much.

[also - tangent]

clearly an emotive topic for some of us at least but I'm pleased generally we can debate opinions civilly. There are some folks on here I don't trust, given past postings on similar subjects and some others yet to appear, but as long as this remains civil I'm happy to continue to present my biased [and also as it appears minority] opinion as long as others are prepared to consider it.

Or only in leagues or competitions for trans athletes?

That would be fair, imo... But then you'd likely end up with sub-groups of pre/post op, hormone supplements/repressors

How many do we think there are to have a competition of enough depth and quality?

The same happens in any sport. Relatively small population and one standout athlete who wins each year.

Or does it ultimately mean they can’t enjoy the benefits and enjoyment of sport

Competing isn't the be all and end all....

I agree with the uci decision.

Remember the backlash Seagrave Senior got when he commented about that NZ girl with the massive Adams Apple got on the podium? Basically someone just making up the numbers in the men's field, yet getting podiums once they decided to compete as a female.

Is that fair?

Same can be said for the South African runner, name escapes me. Yeah, for her it's a shitter, but for her competitors they're running against someone with a genetical anomaly which essentially makes her a lady with balls.

So the question is, how?

I don't know is the honest answer. But i don't think shooting the whole village to stop one spy is it.

Still really conflicted on this.

I completely understand why trans athletes want equality and to be accepted and treated the same way as cis women.

But I've also seen one of the strongest and most consistent cis women cyclists I know be beaten by a previously unknown trans woman. She was devastated and angry, and I totally understand why.

Really not sure how you reconcile the two sides. Or if you can.

deleted - trying to keep civil and not rise to comments

It could get ruinously expensive for UCI if, as recently happened for Caster Semenya, a court decides that the restrictions imposed by the governing body are unlawful and breach TG athletes rights.

It is a frighteningly difficult line to tread and get right.

Caster is not trans though.  They are  XY 5-ARD.  So have a lot of the effects of testosterone, but internal male gametes and  have  atypical genitalia.  Caster's issue is a whole different ball game.

Without any real knowledge of the subject it's easy to use the "yeah it's obvious innit" argument. It's worth listening to what those who have transitioned have to say, e.g. Pippa York.

It’s such a shame that (or so it appears) that the Pippa York video has had to be taken down. Because she would very much dispute this

emily bridges said she lost around 15% of her power as I recall, hence why I used that as a figure.  And I’ll reiterate, I’m rubbish and don’t put in half the training hours as the ladies i beat by a significant margin

because someone who would have finished 15th in the local club TT now finishes 16th….. I think that as an outcome, as an infringement of her rights to be one place lower on a results sheet that no-one cares about apart from her….. is far less significant

ok but what if that TG athlete came 1st meaning the first biological woman missed out on winning. To you it may seem trivial but I know for a fact that when my ex won her first cast 3 road race she was chuffed to bits. Hardly elite sport, but for someone who had trained hard for months it was a  real achievement

it’s not as if you can say ‘well TG athletes can compete, so long as they don’t place on the podium.’

Like it or not all the evidence points to TG athletes retaining an advantage. I’m struggling to see why their right to compete trumps the rights of the vast majority to have a level playing field

Caster Semenya’s recent court case highlights how misguided was World Athletics’ approach to use T levels as an eligibility criteria for DSD athletes. But that’s a totally different situation, as you say, Poah.

The UCI approach is similar to rugby, swimming and others in using male puberty. Not perfect, I’m sure, but it doesn’t put athletes in the position of taking drugs in order to be eligible to compete.