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You'll always tend to struggle climbing against lighter guys. Watts don't naturally scale with weight, which is why most top roadie/mtb pros are skinny midgets. 220W at 55kg is a very different kettle of fish to 360 at 90!
Of course that doesn't mean you can't get better.
That’s my aim - get closer than I am now and then just rinse him on the downhill. I’m quicker on everything but drops - which are my nemesis for some reason
@joebristol - looks like you've got a lot on your plate, sot it's definitely putting all the 'you need to ride more' comments in perspective. It sounds like you're making some good gains, and as long as you remember to enjoy the process you'll be crushing your pal into dust before too long. Allez!
Most normal youngish fittish men should probably manage 4W/kg
Yikes. 4W/KG is pretty exceptional for anybody isn't it?
He’s consistently a stone lighter than me
Bear in mind the average watts you need more per 1lb weight is 3. 1 stone = 14lb therefore you need to be a constant 42w higher than him just to keep up based on maths only of course.
Based on myself, if me and your friend are equal weight he's riding at 250w up a climb I could keep up - thats my sweet spot power. But if my weight differential is the same at yours I'd need to ride at 292w which is threshold and isn't far off my 20 minute power, it'd be very hard work and likely at minute 21 I'd need to back off, and it would have a fatigue impact later in the ride.
@stevious - yeah I’m trying to fit a lot in. Just glad I’ve only got 1 child and not the 2 or 3 some mates have - that looks very hard work.
@kryton57 - I’ve literally got no idea what power my mate is putting out - I’d say on the flat spinning pit I must have more power as I can just spin off into the distance at times. But as soon as we go up he’s lighter enough that my (presumed) higher wattage isn’t enough to make up for the added weight I’m carrying.
We’re off to Risca in March I think so I’m aiming to be in the 75’s and hopefully 250w ish ftp - so will see how much closer that gets me. I suspect that weight and around 280W might be enough in most scenarios.
I have found the last few times out that for tech climbing I might have the edge for a bit on technique now - because I can generate decent power through spinning I can stay seated and get a better balance of grip. Where he is standing up and cranking he’s getting rear wheel slip.
Just on bikes he’s on a v3 SC 5010 CC with slx 12 speed / XM481 rims on 350’s / 130mm Pikes etc. I’m on an alloy 2022 Sentinel with 160mm Lyrik Ultimates / XM481 on Hope Pro4 / Xt 12 speed with X1 carbon cranks / Codes / Cascade link with Kitsuma coil shock.
So my bike is probably 4 - 5lbs heavier ish and longer travel / likely a slightly worse pedal platform which doesn’t help my cause.
Yikes. 4W/KG is pretty exceptional for anybody isn’t it?
I've often heard 4w/kg is the cycling equivalent to running a 3hr marathon. Requires some serious training unless you've got amazing genes, you'll be faster than 90/95% of all other cyclists but a pro runner/rider will blow you into the water.
As for 4w/kg Vs the general population Inc cyclists, it must be top 2% compared to everyone else, surely?
Just to clarify what I meant- I definitely agree with Zone based training. I’ve just grown to learn that for me, and my switch to longer events, I’d rather scale everything off of Lt1* rather than Lt2* as it’s actually more relevant more of the time.
Everything I say needs to be caveated against the fact I’m 95kg and there’s just no way to be good at anything other than maybe track cycling at that weight but…
Today was a perfect example of the kind of functional base type fitness I’m after. I wanted to ride with the faster (63miles at 20mph) group but the race bike only has one bottle cage. After weighing it up. I decided to have a huge breakfast and risk it on one 750ml bottle. I rode easy into town and then sat at the back for the first hour or so. Eventually I found myself at the front and I knew the big climb was due in a bit so I decided to put the hurt on the group on the flats and ride at 25mph for a bit 🤣
When we reached the gradual 5min hill, I decided to just go to the front and sag-climb it. I guessed about 350w would do and just held that to the top. And nobody came round me! Then was the fun downhills to Marlborough so I kept drilling it on the front to lift the pace.
Another climb came and went and finally was the wonderful B4000 downhill back to town. There’s one small kicker where I worried about getting dropped so I decided to attack and get a solo break going 🤣 I held 3-320w once I had a gap and climbed the kicker waiting to get swarmed! It never came ! Eventually they caught me but I sprinted back in to 4th wheel and surfed the front of the group all the way back to town.
Then it was another 6 miles home with Rich but I kept going and added on another 25 miles to get to the century.
So 5h25, 4300 calories, 18.3mph to do 100 miles at 18.3mph on one bottle!
That’s the difference prioritising your slow twitch, fat burning muscle fibres makes. Old me that used to train by FTP could have matched all of the fast work I did today no bother, in fact my 2017 power up the climb we did was 4w higher.
But I’d have been shelled after 2, maybe 3 hours.
The most important thing I’ve taken away from all the endless Z2 chatter is that your volume or lack of, is no excuse not to start from the bottom and build your base for 2 or 3 months. Yet everyone is still slightly in denial about it. By all means add progression and soon, that Z2 work will be “tempo” by the old fashioned zones.
It’s not even new really- if you wrote yourself a Joe Friel plan even 20 years ago, you’d still do Z2, progressing into tempo whether you had 6hrs a week to train or 26h.
Yes I’m still high on pre-ride endorphins so forgive my preaching but being time crunched doesn’t mean you can neglect your base 😀
*yes there’s a billion different names for each of these but loosely for me, Lt1 is the Z2 ‘talk test’ and Lt2 is kinda FTP.
Crosshair sorry if I’m preaching to the converted but you can carry more carbs but just using water in that 750 and carrying more gels to wash down with it.
I had 120g of sugar rammed in there and a bag of Haribo 😋
I’ve often heard 4w/kg is the cycling equivalent to running a 3hr marathon.
Comparing running, and especially running a marathon, to cycling is really hard. I know plenty of cyclists with better W/kg numbers than me who can't get close to my marathon time.
I know that the vast majority of cyclists can't currently do 4 for long. I meant if they trained (and if they were under about 40 and a typical cyclist size/shape). Say 280-300W for a 70-75kg bloke. It's reasonably ambitious but I reckon people who make a serious attempt will get close. The vast majority of recreational cyclists aren't trying!
OTOH the only way someone at 95kg is going to get to 4W/kg is by shedding a load of weight. Unless they are pretty exceptional. In which case they are probably already seriously in to some more suitable sport where weight isn't penalised so much.
Nice podcast reflecting what I was saying. Base is important regardless of hours- don’t skip it 😀
OP, if you really want to get faster on the bike, drop the swimming and the weights, and use that time (including travel to gym/pool time presumably) for more bike sessions.
Going to stick to ramp test for consistency – if I get the chance I’ll try and fit in another ad hoc turbo session where possible – even the odd 30 min session. TR suggests appropriate workouts to fit in with your plan if you want to do an additional session I think – so you’re not doing something completely out of step.
IMO from a TR perspective I'd stick an endurance session in. You are already doing other stuff on top of the cycling and if you manage 3 harder sessions in a week now even if some are shortened you don't need anymore. I always go with Pettit on my endurance sessions from TR. If you have more time just extend it and up the difficulty to get it back to a similar wattage.
When I tried Mid volume the extra harder session broke me quickly. Also mentally trying to fit in 5 sessions a week around life is tough. I find 3 on low and add Pettit if I'm stuck indoors is much better.
Gym is in my garage so about 1 min to get out the house and going. Swimming pool is literally a 5 min walk tops. So both are pretty good for time taken to get going / back - and I think too much bike without the balance might break my lower back - I need the core strengthening to go with it all. Not aiming for really skinny roadie fitness - more punching up the climbs ready to descend hard (for me anyway - I’m probably middling on downhill skill).
Will bear that in mind on type of workout I could add in - think there are 3 or so endurance workouts that would fit the bill. Don’t want to dent my motivation with over training too quickly.
I've just overdone it by going out into the woods and doing a last loop on my own but the trails are so so so dry and grippy it's hard to resist. "Rest" week next week but Tuesday is probably the last night before it rains so will postpone rest until after that.
#can'tfollowmyownadvice
BUT riding outside in nice weather is the FUN bit.
I’ve just done Mono -2 and found it a bit easy, thinking this week I’m going to do my TR sessions Tuesday and Friday before work and hope to do an evening mtb ride Wednesday. Puts me over the weeks planned tss I imagine, but it’s a rest week the week after so can recover then.
@joebristol Started my own 'work towards 4w/kg' at the start of December. Using a base of a 8500km 2022 but have not been xc racing since 2019 (top 10 overall regional XC series). Plan is to have my first season racing in XC Vets cat for 2023.
Start of December baseline was 268ftp / 86kg - I'm 6ft 2 so there's a decent opportunity to drop some weight. Coincided with having a smart trainer for the first time so started Zwifting at start of December also, has been a godsend for Winter.
As of this week have bought my FTP up from 268w to 297w and dropped 3kgs down to 83kg, pretty pleased with that in 8 weeks. Been working mostly on building up power as the endurance base was already there, however as I get towards end of Feb am then going to focus more on weight loss, I'll be happy to eventually get to 78kg / 305w ftp (I'm realistic that the fast initial power increase is now flattening out so it'll be hard to increase another 8-10w from here) so a smidgen below 4w/kg but I think I can maintain that without too much sacrifice once I'm there.
In terms of time spent on this so far, Ive averaged about 8hrs/ week on Zwift since start of December.
@bennyboy1 thanks.
Sounds like you’re at a way higher place than me and with plenty of turbo dedication!
I think 4-5 hours total bike a week is probably the most I’m going to manage for now.
I did an hour threshold session on Sunday (although I think it was a very mild threshold session and I turned up the resistance for the last ‘over’ to finish) - then popped out on my full suss bike last night for a shake down on it after changing the bearings and rebuilding the XT mech.
Legs felt a bit sluggish to start but got going after about 30 mins. Trainer road rated it as 93 tss which seems fair.
There was some climbing in quite muddy / spinny sort of stuff which was quite hard going - plus that bike is 34lbs ish with a 2.6” Hillbilly on the front and 2.4” Kryptotal on the rear. Felt like a good session to boost a bit of fitness and it was quite fun on some steep ish off piste I haven’t ridden in a while - with a fun bit of flow to finish.
Everything has to be a balance doesn’t it. Consistency is the most important thing, stacking weeks and weeks of workouts on top of each other.
Then volume is probably the next most important. Even sticking an extra 10/15mins onto every warmup and cooldown soon gets you from 5hrs to 7.5 or 8.
After that, I prioritise polarity within the week. Went a little hard today? Keep it easy tomorrow.
Or not feeling those intervals? Back it down to Z2 and swap your hard session over.
I think swapping bikes and disciplines around is a great trick to more volume too. Last week I did Tuesday tempo on the road bike, Thursday byways on the gravel bike, Friday road recovery on the gravel bike, Saturday century on the road bike and Sunday byways on the MTB 🤣
Had it all been zzzz road miles, I’d have likely not done as much.
Likewise with the turbo- use it as sparingly as possible to avoid burnout.
This thread has been a depressing read.
I was starting from absolute rock bottom
That is where I am at right now, probably below 200w. I was 213w at some point last year. Glad to hear it is possible. Although I'm not aiming for a specific number, I just want to be fitter and enjoy riding again.
If you’re coming from not a lot it soon starts to come back - just a month of reasonable riding and you’ll start to feel a lot fitter in the bike. So don’t get down hearted about it - just get out pedalling and get on it!
I had a back injury in June then 5-6 weeks of chest infection and Covid in December / early Jan - yet here I am having shed 1.5kgs ish since then and with what I think will
Be an ftp bump next time I ramp test.
I can feel the progress every time I’m out on my mtb - hills are getting easier (or faster - but not both at the same time).
Yeah don’t get disheartened. This was 2yrs ago almost to the week. Coming back after a year off with two broken fibulas.
Now 170w is middle to top of Z1… 🤣
Update - Ramp test due early next week - confident I’m going to get better than the 240w on the last test - hoping for 250w but we’ll see.
Went to FOD for a quick few hours riding on the weekend just gone and pb’d 5 climbs. One I’d never fully cleared before (climb up from the base fireroad out of Cannop trail centre up to Y2K) I cleared with a little bit to spare.
I’m still around 77kgs - some days above / some below - but I’m still weight training 2-3 times a week and feeling stronger than I have in ages.
Got a 1 hour endurance ride on the turbo tomorrow and hopefully getting out on mtb for a few hours somewhere on the weekend. Ideally FOD again or maybe Cwmcarn / Risca.
If you’re coming from not a lot it soon starts to come back
I just did my first (zwift) race since August '22 and after 8 weeks of Bronchitus/Flu/Infection October to December. It was a bit of a shock although luckily a slow start and I averaged 250w/3.4wkg for 60mins. We've been focusing on short power and I'm comfortable with turns of varying lengths between 4.1wkg-5.2wkg with 3 mins being the longest so thats worked. I was 77.5 and am 74.5.kg now. I tested at 3.6wkg 1st Jan, I'd be confident I'm around 3.8wkg now which for February I'm pleased with. With racing mid-late March, then another Build until late April before the race-taper-race cycle kicks in I may make 4wkg again for 20 min ftp also - but this is hard final bit to get to!
Chin up StColin, it'll come. Consistency is the key.
Well done @joebristol 👏🏻
Great stuff.
Sometimes it’s easy to forget that flying along/up stuff faster for the same effort is the reason we do all this, although I do love a bit of data 📈📊😋 🤣
Interesting above people saying that 4kg/w is exceptional? I'm a chunk above this (it helps being light) but would still class myself as an average middle-aged Dad club rider.
I still get smashed weekly on my club rides by people who are Cat 3/4 racers, finish mid-table in a hill climb, and get my arse handed to me in zwift races/group rides.
I guess I'm trying to say that I think its probably reachable by most folks, if you ride regularly and train a bit? I'm currently ticking over at about 6-8h per week riding (which is more than usual as training for Dirty Reiver)
My biggest tip would be getting out regularly with a decent road club. I thought I was fit, until I went out with some roadies.
I guess I’m trying to say that I think its probably reachable by most folks, if you ride regularly and train a bit?
I think that massively depends upon weight 😀
Interesting above people saying that 4kg/w is exceptional? I’m a chunk above this (it helps being light) but would still class myself as an average middle-aged Dad club rider.
I still get smashed weekly on my club rides by people who are Cat 3/4 racers, finish mid-table in a hill climb, and get my arse handed to me in zwift races/group rides.
I guess I’m trying to say that I think its probably reachable by most folks, if you ride regularly and train a bit? I’m currently ticking over at about 6-8h per week riding (which is more than usual as training for Dirty Reiver)
My biggest tip would be getting out regularly with a decent road club. I thought I was fit, until I went out with some roadies.
Roadies are definitely much fitter on average than a mtb'er unless they're really in to XC racing.
6-8hrs per ain't exactly 'ticking over' now is it 🤣 that's probably 5 or 6 rides a week.
So yeah, if you're a road rider, riding with a club and trying to keep up with faster riders, and ride 4/5/6 times a week, 4w/kg probably isn't too hard.
And being light is a massive advantage. If I was a more normal build I'd have no chance of getting near 4w/kg, it's only because I'm a skinny git that I'm be able to get there.
So yeah, if you’re a road rider, riding with a club and trying to keep up with faster riders, and ride 4/5/6 times a week, 4w/kg probably isn’t too hard.
I dunno about that. I got my 3rd cat last year, won a triathlon, qualified for the gran fondo world champs (blah blah blah - insert more boring mediocre palmares here) and I was only at 3.85w/kg.
Your speed isn't always defined by your w/kg anyway. A triathlete might be ok with a lower w/kg if they are producing more actual watts. But MTBing is heavily skewed towards high w/kg rather than high watts, because there's usually lots of climbing involved.
I thought I was fit, until I went out with some roadies.
I have a mate who is much faster than me on road because he can smash out 280W for an hour constantly. However I can keep up easily on most MTB, except the longer climbs, because I have much greater repeatable peak power so when it's short sharp hills or technical sections I can rely on that.
@benman I did 55 miles with 2300ft climbing at 20.4mph the other day including the warm up. The session was 150mins straight tempo at 267watts. Not sure if that classes me as fit or not but I doubt I’ll ever reach the heady heights of 4.0w/kg.
I think because fat middle aged blokes are the biggest consumer of cycling gear, weight has been massively played down as a factor in performance but in a physics sense I’m doing more work. I’m moving maybe 1/3 more mass through space and time than a light climber.
It’s why I talk in Kj’s, kcals and watts 😀
Because when I start mentioning speed, VAM, w/kg and aerodynamics my cycling stock value plummets 📉📉🤣
Interesting above people saying that 4kg/w is exceptional? I’m a chunk above this (it helps being light) but would still class myself as an average middle-aged Dad club rider.
4W/kg for 1 hour is decent but not exceptional. You need to be starting with a 5 for it to be exceptional. And of course a 6 would make it world class.
NB 90% of your best 20 min power is (most probably) not your FTP...
NB 90% of your best 20 min power is (most probably) not your FTP…
96% here, 4% anaerobic contribution and 3.7W/Kg
4w/Kg would currently put me at 90% and 10% respectively, but I'd be blowing after 7 minutes!
NB 90% of your best 20 min power is (most probably) not your FTP…
I absolutely couldn't hold my ramp test FTP for an hour. Best I've held it for was 30-something mins up Sa Calobra
6-8hrs per ain’t exactly ‘ticking over’ now is it 🤣 that’s probably 5 or 6 rides a week.
A couple of hours zwifting and a Sunday morning club ride. Looking at the Z2 thread on here, seems my volume is pretty low in comparison to some...
Assuming your outdoor FTP is likely a little higher than your indoor one, may be worth reducing your indoor FTP until you can hold it a little longer? Assuming (again) that your ramp test was performed indoors.
Yeah, I don't train at my indoor FTP, I knock it back nearly 10 watts for ERG mode.
Joe - I rode really hard in 2018 & 2019 when re-discovered the pleasures of an XC bike at the same time as I finally took up monitoring myself electronically. I don't know what my power:weight was back then, but I'm unlikely to match my Strava times again. But, bearing in mind the work and wider family stresses I was under at the time, I was probably overtraining. It's perhaps an obvious explanation in hindsight for the series of unexplained urinary tract infections I had at the same time. I later changed my mindset when it comes to work and fitness from the end of 2020.
I still keep my performance in mind, but I regularly ask myself: to what end? Ultimately I want to be able to take on any ride at the drop of a hat, and to enjoy good health for the benefit of me & my family. Some of your own motivation will depend on whom you ride with - maybe you need to ride more with @ianpv if you want to be able to use 4w/kg. 😉
I've found my stats to be quite deceptive anyway in that I probably have quite a low FTP for the people I match up against in real life. Some of this is probably down to my pedalling style, lightweight XC bike etc.
I try to focus as much on wider factors than just those that influence FTP. You mention your busy life and I can relate to that very much from my own experiences of family. At one time my philosophy was to "lean on the soft bits" of my life - e.g. getting out at 6am to ride the long way to work up hills regularly. I still do that sometimes, but I am much more inclined to take things easier now. Most importantly, I am sure my health is much better than it was despite undoubtedly lower stats.
I still fancy my chances in an uphill race though. FTP be damned. 🙂
I was probably overtraining
unlikely
I’m sure Mr PV would still hand my behind to me on any kind of bike fitness measure no matter how well I do.
At the moment I feel like my fitness is flying - I’m lifting the heaviest weights I have done in a few years whilst also pushing on my cycle fitness again.
Vs you I have memories of chasing round Leigh Woods and AC absolutely breathing out of my behind trying to keep you in sight. I’ve no doubt it would likely be still the same - although hopefully I’d be a little bit closer these days!
Really well put by @Ben_H!
A couple of other points from me:
- I disagree with @dirtyrider that it's unlikely that you were 'overtraining'. Perhaps true by some narrow definition of the word but putting yourself under too much stress is possible even with very modest workloads. All of life's other stresses also contribute.
- More broadly I find the comparative power discussions really uninformative. Talking about your watts is a bit like talking about your dreams - really intersting to you but not really to anybody else.
I guess for me the 4w/kg is a random figure I picked out the air to aim for - and have a structured ish training plan to push on.
As I mentioned a few posts back it’s all really to make mtb more fun where I can blast up hills and not be last to the top / not be too knackered to enjoy the downhills.
Ben will know some of the lads in our WhatsApp riding group are either really cycle fit / technically very good or both. I’ve really had to uk my game since riding with them to keep up on the uphills and not be so far back on the downhills! I’ve ended up pushing onto far more difficult trails in the last few years as a result - I’d never gone near Risca before or Staunton or any other difficult off piste stuff. I’m even contemplating having a look at some network R stuff - although the exits of the trails sound terrifying with steep chutes etc.
Risca particularly needs the fitness to get more than a few runs in - the climb is mostly quite steep and about 300m of climbing a pop I think.
One easy way to get to 4W/kg is to use a garmin watch and go for a run. Apparently I did 515W for 38 mins on my last 10k race. That’s well over 6W/kg, so suck on that, losers.
Sadly I don’t think it does watts for cycling, or I’d be a zwift god.
lol had a polite argument with DC Rainmaker about just that - he'd done a (just) sub 20 5K, and apparently his average power was well over 500W. At my current level of fitness I'd rate a sub 20 5K as just slightly over my FTP, say around 250W... Certainly not double. And I did a very easy run yesterday, average power according to my Garmin? 350W.
Rode at Cwmcarn today for the first time in a few months - first time ever I haven’t been almost dying in a couple of parts of the Cafell climb. Just the very last bit at the top hurt a bit. Down Pedalhounds and then up the tarmac road to the top of the Twrch and riding a bit of off piste.
Garmin says my training status is ‘unproductive’ but high load this week.
Strava says I’m in danger of overtraining.
Trainer road is fine with it 🤷♂️