I've ridden at most trail centres and when you consider that usually there is only a small charge for parking, they are bloody good value.
Like Afan on Sunday, £3 to park all day and we rode 40 miles (Wall, W2, shortened Skyline).
But we had the same discussion we always do, why don't they have honesty boxes at the start of the trails; we'd quite happily put in - at a £1 a rider per day they'd generate lots of extra cash, even if only, say, half put in.
Or is it just us?
The honesty boxes would be located in Wales. You couldn't make them strong enough.
I think Glentress used to have ticket machines that had buttons to add additional donations for the trails. I think honesty boxes can be awkward as a) how do you ensure they don’t get knicked, b) who will collect the money, and c) how do you get them emptied without the risk of the collector being mugged.
Depends a lot on the area I imagine, but I know Cannock Chase has had an entire parking meter ripped out of the concrete by thieves before. There’s a donation box at the trailhead [i]in [/i]the bike shop, not sure how successful it is though.
[i]The honesty boxes would be located in Wales. You couldn't make them strong enough.[/i]
Nah, thought of that - put them after the first climb; that'll stop the locals 🙂
there's one at penmachno, always put a fiver in.
What hora said.
Dalby (at least for me) shoots itself in the foot charging £9, I'd pay up if there was a car full or if it was £3-£5 like most other places
or we were splitting it between a car full, but not on my own when theres ~10 villages to park in for free on the perifary and ride in on the bridleways/footpaths.
Or is it just us?
Depends on your use of it I guess. They're clearly a very viable commercial concern as it is so I don't feel the need to expand that particularly. If used a few times a week that woudl get pretty expensive.
they are at Penmachno
£9 for Dalby? 😯
Nah, thought of that - put them after the first climb; that'll stop the locals
They have motorbikes. And stolen Vauxhall Corsas.
£9 for Dalby?
Is it?!?!?!?!? It was £7 last time I went! Look, I'm the first to knock people that park on verges and such like, but at £9 a day and there's only me in the car i'll be parking somewhere else 🙄
[i]If used a few times a week that woudl get pretty expensive. [/i]
What at £1 a day, you joke, yes?
In 5 years at Llandegla the honesty box took about a tenner.
The car parking meters were broken into about a dozen times before being stolen entirely!!
I wouldn't trust them to reinvest it in new trails/upkeep of existing.
I'd be happy to contribute if I was told "we'll build [i]this[/i] new trail [i]here[/i] but we need an additional £XXX, and cant build it until we have that much". I reckon a lot of riders would throw a good few quid at that considering how much we spend on bikes.
In 5 years at Llandegla the honesty box took about a tenner.
The car parking meters were broken into about a dozen times before being stolen entirely!!
Yep thats Wales for you.
They're clearly a very viable commercial concern as it is so I don't feel the need to expand that particularly.
You're joking right. Most of the (FC) trail centres get a big cash grant to build the trails and then that's it, hence the lack of maintenance. Income is tiny, e.g. 100 cars per day every weekend paying £3 ago would bring in around £ 30k. That's possibly enough to pay for one full time person doing repairs. Factor in costs of materials, equipment, car park upkeep, facilities up keep, cost of the parking meters in the first place and it's going no where.
As for building new trails it costs around £ 25 per meter using a contractor, materials and features are extra. If you were lucky that would give you an extra 1km of plain trail per year.
Income from cafes and shops pretty much (in most cases just about makes them a viable business). So no trail centre are not money makers. Charge car parking and then £ 10 per person and they might be.
That might sound a lot but compare it to parking in town and then going to the cinema for a couple of hours and you'll be paying similar.
stumpyjon whilst I agree with you almost entirely the car park revenue from say, Llandegla will be waaaaay more than that, even places like Whinnlatter and Grizedale will exceed that by some margin. I don't mind paying, but £9 a day is past that tipping point for me.
You're joking right. Most of the (FC) trail centres get a big cash grant to build the trails and then that's it, hence the lack of maintenance. Income is tiny, e.g. 100 cars per day every weekend paying £3 ago would bring in around £ 30k. That's possibly enough to pay for one full time person doing repairs. Factor in costs of materials, equipment, car park upkeep, facilities up keep, cost of the parking meters in the first place and it's going no where.
And that's assuming that the trailbuilders get a share of any money from the car parking, which isn't always the case, especially in multi-user forests where there's also walking routes, cafes, play areas, etc.
stumpyjon is pretty much bang on......
Another way is donation. I've made some fairly generous deposits to the Penmachno trails via their Paypal account, linked to on their Facebook page.
Has anyone mentioned the Treasury's take from the bike / parts sales in the UK ?.
And the fuel revenue from all you lot drivig to trail centres to park your cars, etc, etc.
Oh, and is there any saving to be had by the NHS for all us fitter, healthier MTB'ers ?.
What about the rent from the trail centre shop and cafe operators?
The biggest aid to most trail centres would be more volunteers to help improve/maintain the trails rather than cash.
In Scotland at least it's debateable whether the Forestry lot are empowered to charge for parking.
How about not paying and joining a build day instead ?
the money from glyncorrwg car park all goes to the fishing lakes. sod that, i park at pontrhydyfen for free.
dont forget we own the FC land, and they should provide facilities for us since it is a profit making business which is only viable since we have provided the land for free.
that said im happy to help dig and often do, just like im happy to pick up litter
It's rare I get annoyed, but moaning about paying £9 to park your £10k car containing your £2k bike having spent £40 on fuel to get there and ride on trails which cost £25/m to build is really quite pathetic.
In most places the trails do not benefit in the slightest from the car park money. The money goes to the FC centrally then each centre begs the FC for money to build and maintain its trails.
In the case of Bedgebury, the ONLY money we get to spend on improving the trails comes from people joining the bike club. For this you get free parking (amongst many other benefits) and the parking part of your membership is held in trust by the club and ringfenced for trail building. We get the most we can out of this by relying on volunteer labour, but riders are usually reluctant to join in, but happy to moan about state of trails/car parking costs.
Sorry, rant over...
the money from glyncorrwg car park all goes to the fishing lakes. sod that, i park at pontrhydyfen for free.
Whilst I agree with you about the Glyncorrwg car park, if you're parking at pontrhydyfen surely you'd be better off using the [b]Forestry commission[/b] car park at Afan Argoed?
Where do you pay at Dalby?
Never noticed anything in the car park next to the 4x track.
boriselbrus - MemberIt's rare I get annoyed, but moaning about paying £9 to park your £10k car containing your £2k bike having spent £40 on fuel to get there and ride on trails which cost £25/m to build is really quite pathetic.
Even when it's land passed to the FC by the Govt, i'e' owned by the PEOPLE, and the legislation doesn't even empower the FC to charge for parking?
In most places the trails do not benefit in the slightest from the car park money. The money goes to the FC centrally then each centre begs the FC for money to build and maintain its trails.
So what's the point in paying the parking then?
The biggest aid to most trail centres would be more volunteers to help improve/maintain the trails rather than cash.
This, also helps massively with new funding initiatives as the funding applications can show there is genuine menaingful local support. Hours put in by volunteers can also be used as match funding (many grants will only provide 50% of the cost with the other 50% having to met from other sources).
How about not paying and joining a build day instead ?
Something the forests in the North are putting in place as we speak. 3 dig days gets you an annual pass for your local forest, 5 gets you a pass covering many of the northern forests.
dont forget we own the FC land, and they should provide facilities for us since it is a profit making business which is only viable since we have provided the land for free.
Utter wibble. The FC don't often own the land, Gisburn for example is on United Utilities land. I don't know the details of the lease but I'd be surprised if it was free. We don't own the FC anymore than we own 10 Downing street, MOD land or the land our local hospital sits on. The only facilities they have to provide are those stipulated in their mandate from the government (moan at them if you want things to be different, not the FC, wasn't that long ago the Tories want to flog off the forests). That said the FC has given us many facilities. Again my detailed knowledge is limited to Gisburn but I know the FC has put several hundred thousand pounds into the facilities to date (along side significant money from other sources) with so far zero return. That doesn't include the generous support the local volunteer group has had, we have materials, tools and the FC team supporting us monthly. Then there's the repair and upgrade work the onsite FC team have done, all coming out of the Forests manpower and financial budget. Be a bit more grateful for what we have received for next to nothing already.
The car parking calcs above were based on a real scenario, and even then I think it may be on the generous side.
Final point, the Gisburn volunteers have now built approx 3km of technical feature rich trail, so a few of us have effectively given the equivilent of £ 75k over the last four years (more if you consider the extra costs associated with woodwork, berms and steps). On a good day a single volunteer can build 5m of armoured trail, thats £ 125 donated, makes the few quid car parking for the day seem mean in comparison.
One thing that may well be hindering spending on improving or maintaining these trail centres is the amount of dosh required to pick up all the litter lying by the side of these trails. I was up at Afan over the weekend for the first time in about a year, and I lost count of the number of different bits of rubbish lying by the side of the trail.
aside from donating dosh, one constructive thing to do is pick up a few bits near you when you stop. It all helps, and it also helps balance out the damage done by selfish farktards who drop it in the first place.
Why don't you form clubs to work with the trail centres and help build and maintain trails with them? 1 day a month with a good (and trained gang) can get a fair bit done!
IMBA UK do trail building courses and trail inspection courses which for members is pretty cheap!
This is a great way to work as you get to ride something you helped to build and sometimes build it how you like it... win win.
Grizedale had a donation box for the new DH line in the shop and the cafe..
It's rare I get annoyed, but moaning about paying £9 to park your £10k car containing your £2k bike having spent £40 on fuel to get there and ride on trails which cost £25/m to build is really quite pathetic.
What if it's a £3k car containing a £600 bike and only just too far to make it into a loop from home? Can it be pro rated?
The FC don't often own the land,
They hardly ever own the land; they're a manager, not an owner.
The public forest estate is land that is owned or leased by the Nation which we manage on behalf of the public.
I wish I understood how FC/FE works, particularly with regards sport and leisure. It seems to be made up of people on a local level just making policy up as they go along, with no real centralised direction or policy.
thisisnotaspoon - Member
What if it's a £3k car containing a £600 bike and only just too far to make it into a loop from home? Can it be pro rated?
Pro-rated whining, great concept!
Most of the (FC) trail centres get a big cash grant to build the trails and then that's it, hence the lack of maintenance. Income is tiny, e.g. 100 cars per day every weekend paying £3 ago would bring in around £ 30k. That's possibly enough to pay for one full time person doing repairs.
That's a start though isn't it? Maybe a Swinley style 'permit' system. Could even be a permit to cover a group of centres (7 Stanes pass?).
A couple of part time trail maintenance people would make a big difference to some of these places
do they do that? Pay someone to pick up litter? Serious question, someone on staff or call in a firm when it gets really messy?One thing that may well be hindering spending on improving or maintaining these trail centres is the amount of dosh required to pick up all the litter lying by the side of these trails
Pro-rated whining, great concept!
But do I get 3x more winge as the parking is relatively 3x more expensive to me, or 3x less winge as I've spent 3x less overall.........
I only do about 1 skid about every 15km so can I get 50p off?
I'm a little rotund so I think I should pay a bit more.
Dalby was £7 about 3 weeks ago, but maybe it's gone up now it's summer 😕
You pay at the toll booth as you drive in.
I'd quite happily pay into a honesty box at coed-y-brenin, and due to thugs this will never happen so my advise to them would be to put there prices up at the cafe. What's an exta £1for a cup of tea?? I'm sure people can afford to pay these prices if they're riding around on £5k bicycles!! 🙄
