Stevet1 - Member
This is pretty common and the reason a lot of jump spots are closed down, and also one of the reasons that jumps spots are kept 'secret' a lot of the time.
Which is why I can see things coming to a head in the Surrey Hills. It's got ridiculous with gaps, drops and jumps dug on every rideable bit of trail. Not knocking the fun and efforts, but they're so obvious and ambulances up there are also frequent someone's going to say no more.
Jeezus. That pic up there ^ is sad.. 😯
That gully taught me how to'jump'. By 'jump' I mean roll over B-line stuff in a totally mincing XC way, but nevertheless: I got AIRTIME! 😀
I can totally see how you [i]could[/i] mess yourself up at that spot - but you would have to be a complete numpty.
Bugger. 😐
The qualifier woodwork drop on Vicious Valley at BPW has had many OTB on it. Seen people do that myself as they just roll off the end. I've heard talk of it being filled in because of that.
It has been to some extent. I was up there Saturday, the drop in is 18" max now.
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tbh, it ain't really much of a loss is it?
(About 4 pretty poor jumps in 50 yards of trail, never saw the attraction of it myself. First time i rode it, i got to the end wondering where the infamous "jumps gully" was.......... )
So their offer to discuss it over the phone was a bit pointless really
They could at least have put up a sign saying drop your seat before riding as that seemed to be a common factor in crashes of seen!
[url= http://www.theonion.com/article/fun-toy-banned-because-of-three-stupid-dead-kids-290 ]no comment at all on anyone who used or rode jump gully, but while we're on the subject, here's a potentially offensive (like a lot of things) bit on the consequences of potential for harm vs. enjoyment[/url]
I can see why it's been done but the logics flawed. 40% of accidents may well occur there but probably >>40% of the jumps, per use it was probably the safest bit of the woods.
I didnt consider for a moment suing/insurance/compensation, I rode it, i **d it, my fault, my problem end of..
Anyone that does/would is a C of the highest order.
You wouldn't but if you read the thread rather than coming in all guns blazing with your potty mouth you'd have noted its not the individuals suing its insurers, employers etc.
Got a mortgage, they'll sue to cover the life insurance.
Got a moderately important job, they'll have insurance against your time off, and they'll sue.
Jobless, on the dole, renting? Your landlords probably got insurance against you not being able to pay, they'll sue.
Basically unless you're a full time off grid spoon whitler, you're exactly the **** you seem to hate, you've just been lucky.
Boo. I liked the Jump Gulley, but I rode well within my limits in case I fell off in front of da youf.
+1 for it being too accessible to the masses - those without the experience or judgement to assess the risk properly.
When you look at your average driver and pedestrian you can see that a very large proportion of the population don't assess risk very well...
For as long as stuff like this is hard to find, it remains the preserve of those who want to do it - and by definition probably have some idea of the risk they're taking, or simply the correct technique to get it right. Make it accessible and the numpty masses pile in. Literally. We're seeing similar in my road club with a lot of newbies having no idea how to ride in a group. Or even on the road full stop sometimes!
What Swinley needs therefore is a proper built skills area so their liability is covered.
How do you get a properly built skills area sorted out?
I have about ten years of memories from this place. Absolutely devastated about what's happened!
If you have a fatal accident on your land there will be a lot of people interested in seeing what you have got in the way of health and safety, especially your insurance company and the HSE. You will then have to show your procedures, monitoring and actions to reduce the risks and accidents. If you see 40% of accidents in one place and it not and you made it then the obvious, to a non jump riding off road biker, is to get rid of it.
I don't like it at all, but we can still ride there. My kids love riding there and will miss the gully, but they like just going out riding anyway. If you owned some land and your insurers told you that they will not cover you unless you get rid of your biggest risk, what would you do, when trying to keep most of the people who visit happy?
I wouldn't worry too much. It'll be rebuilt again soon enough I would have thought. Whether it becomes a battle then of building and knocking down is a different matter.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of Swinley, and unless you're a local, don't understand the attraction, it's a flat trail....any local woodland offers the same thing. Just my opinion, i'm sure some people love it, and good on them, glad people are out their bikes.
You wouldn't but if you read the thread rather than coming in all guns blazing with your potty mouth you'd have noted its not the individuals suing its insurers, employers etc.
Not sure how you can come to that conclusion from reading this thread. We know Crown Estates were sued for significant sums. We don't know by whom.
it's a flat trail....any local woodland offers the same thing
As you state, it is a flat piece of land and with that in mind, I think they have done really, really well to create something interesting. Not sure about your local woods but mine don't have any berms or jumps and I cant manage 14 odd miles of pretty interesting^ riding.
^ Granted it is no Welsh mountain, but certainly entertaining for a 90 minute mess around every now and then - especially in winter when it drains very well.
I wouldn't worry too much. It'll be rebuilt again soon enough I would have thought. Whether it becomes a battle then of building and knocking down is a different matter.
No it won't, the site has been flattened, the 'gully' feature is no more. It's not somewhere where a 'secret' set of jumps cab be built over a period of time, it's right next to a fireroad, not hard for a ranger to keep an eye on. No proper dirt jumpers with the digging culture really use it, the local DJ community has their secret spots well away from CE land.
The reality is that the main guy who has built and nurtured the jumps over the last 15+ years is part of Trail Team Swinley who 'support' the CE's decision. This same person (and associated groups) has been largely responsible for all the interesting off-piste stuff in Swinley (Babymaker, Deerstalker, Babystalker etc), aside from him and some of the other locals no-one else really digs in Swinley - largely due to the fact that stuff there is liable to be removed as soon as it is found.
The Gully has always been a 'problem' for CE. I reckon that they let it had a stay of execution after the trail centre was built, but this was always on the cards. It's not just the insurance/liability issue, I'm sure a lot of valuable ranger time is spent attending accidents there, the air ambulance is pretty fed up of regular call outs, there is a litter problem etc.
The feature was fun and somewhat historic for locals. Unfortunately the fact is that Swinley is an easily accessible, family oriented trail centre, you can hire a bike or ride in from town. The Gully is easy to find with features that can easily catch the inexperienced off guard, when dry it is fast and concrete hard. It's easy for the unskilled/over-confident get in trouble at speed without really trying, and when you go down it's going to hurt - this was just happening too much for the CE to stomach.
Sad day, but we move on.
Not sure how you can come to that conclusion from reading this thread. We know Crown Estates were sued for significant sums. We don't know by whom.
nope but i work in HSE and its almost always the insurers (e.g. private medical, income protection, your home insurance) either bringing the case or making the payout conditional on you taking reasnoble steps to recover the losses. It could even be the HSE themselves taking you to court.
And as if by magic today.....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sean-tarala-12-year-old-boy-says-aunt-who-tried-to-sue-him-would-never-hurt-family-a6696386.html
nope but i work in HSE and its almost always the insurers (e.g. private medical, income protection, your home insurance) either bringing the case or making the payout conditional on you taking reasnoble steps to recover the losses. It could even be the HSE themselves taking you to court.
This.
It is all about liability, not protecting people or reasonable decisions. The Young report in 2012 proposed changes to all sorts, insurers and lability claims included, to the benefit of us all. Sadly not really being followed through.
Someone in an office, who has never been biking, who is rewarded for keeping costs of claims down at all costs, for the profit of shareholders is calling the shots. No-one else will influence that decision, frustratingly.
Sad days. I remember blasting down there progressively faster on my full sus. Very very nearly had a big off when I finally timed the 'pop' right for the first time whilst going way too fast on that last roller, found myself quite a long way up and a long drop to flat. Can easily see how less skilled people (like me) get carried away there and hurt themselves.
They've gone the way of the LW jumps which claimed my scaphoid and collarbone 🙁
This thread is further evidence Swinley should build a skills area so people can practice. QECP are considering one. All most people need are a few drops and a table top much like @jedi's coaching setup.
@matt insurance costs are paid by all of us, the alternative is insurers don't cover these risks at all. Just seen the revised terms for my travel insurance and it excludes MTB on anything except Green and Blue trails and no "freeride" which I am sure an insurer would call any jumping
I really don't understand why everyone is getting so upset. The first time I went to swinley years ago I pedalled around asking for " the gulley". I found it and was somewhat disappointed with four rollable tables in a ditch. Haven't bothered going back since. I am no way a free ride expert but it really wasn't up to much. I understand people use it as progression to bigger things but if you just ride up to babymaker etc etc you would find tables berms etc etc that you can jump, roll over, ride slow/fast at your leisure.
I really don't understand why everyone is getting so upset
Me too, it's like someone has has their first born slain by Crown Estates.
I can't even bring myself to call it the jump gully, it's always been that crap. Swinley has always been a terrible place to ride, the loss of a piss poor effort to make middle aged wobblers think they are rad by casing a 3ft table is hardly worth the outcry it has seemingly generated.
Now they can look forward to riding round on polished construction aggregate instead.
We can't all be as rad as you, man. less of the judgements eh?
butterbean - the Jump Gully was well used and enjoyed by many, it's a shame that it no longer exists. No need to be so nasty. 😐
butterbean
middle aged wobblers think they are rad
Most of STW then
Butterbean has it right though, Swinley as it stands is properly crap.
It gets lots of use because it's in the chronically overcrowded South East...as said, the polished hard pack surface is awful, couldn't care less if it drains well in the winter....I went there years ago before it was a trail centre and had a great time exploring and riding tracks that looked well used and some that looked natural and hardly used....found some genuinely technical stuff too....it was a thoroughly enjoyable day.
Went there more recently and it was dire, it's more a place where people go to justify owning their bike as opposed to going because it's good....there are huge parts of the Surrey Hills that are so much better but require some effort which of course doesn't fit in with the painting by numbers cycling loads seem to want to do now....sad that people seem to actually desire a mindless signposted trudge through some flat woods....seriously even the MOD land around that area is better than Swinley itself.
Pointless 'path of least resistance' place it has become now, symptomatic of modern life and the South East in general I'm afraid.
sad that people seem to actually desire a mindless signposted trudge through some flat woods
What is far more sad than that, is someone judging someone else because they are somehow doing cycling "wrong" 🙄
Wrong?....no.
Crap?....yes.
There is better cycling around Swinley, look for it, that's all.
I've said it before but the fastest most impressive guy I've seen at Swinley was on a short travel carbon HT and he made everyone else look silly....the long travel, slack trail bikes being unloaded in the carpark all looked a bit crap and like overkill once I'd seen that....and that's what Swinley has become, somewhere to go for an hour of a weekend in order to justify owning that type of bike in the South....it fails miserably, nothing better than exploring new trails or woods, Swinley as a trail centre has lost that and that's the real shame, not that 'jump gully' has been demolished.
Judging others?....yep, happens all the time, everyone does it from appearance to speech to manners to hobbies etc....oh no I judged someone!
it fails miserably, nothing better than exploring new trails or woods,
because the existence of a way marked trail stops you from doing that does it?
I can see why people say Swinley is crap
I however ride it loads and I think it's an absolute hoot! and appreciate it.
Rather unpleasant attitudes on this thread. Hear the same sort of rubbish spouted about some of the official/older trails in the Surrey Hills like BKB and Telegraph Row: i don't ride them much now as theres other trails I [u]prefer[/u] but lots of folk still love riding them and i couldn't care less what bike they're riding 🙄
because the existence of a way marked trail stops you from doing that does it?
Not quite but last time I was there I did seem to spend an annoying amount of time looking for signposts, stage numbers etc and turning around to get back on 'the trail'....that's what way marking does, it makes you feel you should follow the route....particularly if you've been led to believe that something worthwhile is coming up....without signs everywhere people tend to go off and do their own thing, explore a bit more etc....I don't ride there anymore as a result, the number of users attracted to an area also tends to go up once something like Swinley becomes official and a trail centre and that's just not an enjoyable way to spend my time.
.that's what way marking does, it makes you feel you should follow the route....particularly if you've been led to believe that something worthwhile is coming up....without signs everywhere people tend to go off and do their own thing, explore a bit more etc....
Which is exactly why they build them... but like I said, does that actually [u]stop[/u] you from doing it?
I don't ride there anymore as a result, the number of users attracted to an area also tends to go up once something like Swinley becomes official and a trail centre and that's just not an enjoyable way to spend my time.
I find it much nicer shopping in my local Waitrose since they built an Asda down the road 😉
middle aged wobblers
It'll be your turn one day!
😆 😆 😆
Hopefully there will be more space in the car park now.
The reason I'm sad is it is part of my riding past and had good memories when I had my first full sus and was ridiculously over biked (Santa cruz vp free.....) and trying to learn stuff. I then migrated on to bigger stuff and DH holidays in the Alps before getting old and breaking myself one to many times. Now I'm on of those whippets on a carbon 29er who likes going to swinley for a quick blast and mostly keeps the wheels on the ground. I still liked having a play in the gully for old times sake, not because it was particularly amazing or anything. That's why I'm a bit sad.
.I went there years ago before it was a trail centre and had a great time exploring and riding tracks that looked well used and some that looked natural and hardly used....found some genuinely technical stuff too....it was a thoroughly enjoyable day.
Agreed. It was a sad day when Swinley became a trail centre and, imo, the ambience disappeared too. Following an unpleasant 'trail rage' experience I never returned.
Agreed. It was a sad day when Swinley became a trail centre and, imo, the ambience disappeared too. Following an unpleasant 'trail rage' experience I never returned.
Boooo
Don't let the cobbles and unwashed put you off, that's even more of a shame.
Swinley can be great, just ride it like you used to, link up old stuff, poke down into Crowthorne, use the fire roads to connect the good bits out of order. Go ride the old bits that are still there but only a few people ride now. 🙂
Swinley can be great, just ride it like you used to, link up old stuff, poke down into Crowthorne, use the fire roads to connect the good bits out of order. Go ride the old bits that are still there but only a few people ride now.
Exactly!
Swinley used to be great fun!I have not been for a few years, but am sure its still great fun as its all riding bikes on dirt tracks?
The Jump gulley itself seemed to change all the time, but there were neat hidden stunts to session.
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I can see how people got easily injured, with all the constant changes to the jumps, some had very 'poppy' lips which would easily catch an inexperienced rider out. For some low scale jumps, you could get quite loose on them
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I completely understand why they demolished the gulley, constant accidents are a legal risk that no operator wants, having been through the lawsuit at old Esher Shore, all the H&SE wranglings over the years the park operated, and constant adjustments to trails, or even removal of stunt following patterns of accidents, it makes sense.
I remember being shocked at the blase attitude of some of the people riding the gulley, specifically watching a little lad on a cheap bike crashed his brains out on the last jump whilst his dad stood up top laughing "better get you a helmet then!". the mind boggles...
Right decision IMO.
It was a very dangerous little section, baked solid and like jumping on concrete, but with jumps an inappropriate angle/length for the actual speed/trail.
Whilst I admit it was fun in a way and I had my best ever 'air' on there... it was very dangerous too.
I was riding Swinley at the weekend. It was a good little blast. I headed up early and didn't see anyone on the first loop. I like Swinley- it give me a chance to go for a spin on trails that are in good condition all year. I also meet lots of like minded friendly people. I managed over 50k on the trails and loved it. Yes, it's not challenging but that's not why I go. With natural stuff I'm forever second guessing corners, obstacles, cheeky trails in fear of what is round the corner. Swinley lets you relax a bit. You just have to dodge the odd dog walker and child in the middle of the trail.
I stopped off at the jump gully and I can't believe what it looks like now. Essentially a plowed field with a few new trees cut down too.
[i]I can see why people say Swinley is crap
I however ride it loads and I think it's an absolute hoot! and appreciate it.
[/i]
+1
I've not ridden it since they 'created' the trail centre, but for no other reason than moving 400 miles away. There was always loads of 'hidden' stuff, and I imagine that most of it is still there. You could easily ride for hours, and get nowhere 🙂
+1 to all that cokie
It's a fun blast Swinley, a place where you can relax a bit on a sunny afternoon and just have a bit of fun. This is coming from someone who loves rocky stuff in the Peak, CyB Beast, etc.
I don't really care whether there are some people pootling about on the blue on 180mm FS rigs in full face helmets. Good on 'em - if that's what they want to do! It's all bikes.. 🙂
I was up at the gulley yesterday afternoon and there were about 15 lost people standing around looking in bewilderment at the devastation. There's even a new 'trail' starting to form already - where people have begun riding over the bulldozed moonscape.
I agree with the comments on the potential dangers of jumps in the gully - their very 'kickyness' was the thing that put me off riding them for years, but once I gradually worked myself up to it, I found them really good fun.
I don't doubt that something will return in their place, probably completely unofficial though.
