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@Hora/Gotama: I guess some parents might want to go after someone if it was their 12yr old who had the accident.
Sure, we might see ourselves as responsible adults willing to take the hit (no pun intended) if we have a bad off. But a parent might see it differently.
[i]Sure, we might see ourselves as responsible adults willing to take the hit (no pun intended) if we have a bad off. But a parent might see it differently. [/i]
If a parent takes their child down an illegal trail they have no moral right to see it differently. I do take my son down the steepest, hardest trails I can ride and take the view, inevitably, one day, he's gonna have a big 'off'. I should point out he's better than me though!
Hora - Yes unfortunately. Quite a few people go very quickly down the fireroads and don't slow down for walkers, particularly on the run from the top of pitch down to peaslake tea shop. Baffles me as there is one of the best runs in the whole area that cuts through the trees a mere 100 yards away from the road but i guess its unsanctioned 🙄 even though it has been there for as long as i can remember and the ranger clearly knows all about it and has no problem with it.
Spacemonkey - I can see where you are coming from and agree with the issue. I just think its a sad state of affairs and one which should not be an problem for the landowners that are good enough to let us ride on their property.
Pixie - I think monkey was probably talking about those kids where the parents don't ride but let little Tarquin go off and ride his bike with friends/on his own. Tarquin tries the notorious gap jump and comes off worse for wear. Parents think biking is evil, the landowner has allowed a highly dangerous jump to be built and therefore sue.
Gotama
Fair point, hadn't looked at it from that angle. If you're called Tarquin then you deserve to have your face planted into a tree though 😛
I'm not just talking about the Tarquins of this world ... more a case of parents that ride little or not at all and have no idea these kinds of jumps/gaps/drops etc even exist.
Haven't read all the posts - but I want to say that I've been using Nirvana Cycles for about ten years and it's an absolute jewel of a shop with great staff, and their shop rides are awesome. Everything an LBS should be.
Next stop Winterfold and destruction of those trails....
You won't get McAllister on board in the first place!
If they permit access and the rider has an accident I imagine he could pursue the land owner as its his liability (unless there was a disclaimer on the land stating otherwise?).
Which is why I feel we need an "at your own risk" permit system in this country.
Some kind of notice on lands which says the land owner is absolved of any liability and the people using it are responsible for any recovery off the land if they get into trouble.
More land owners would be less objecting to MTB perhaps then.
NT is another matter as they fuss about conservation, but even the stuff highlighted by the press here is barely making an impact. Piling a few already existing logs on the ground for a jump is not chopping down trees. Taking in a digger and digging out big gap jumps, possibly cutting into roots is a big impact but I don't see that here from the photos.
As for Winterfold... shshhh!
Sadly it will happen though, and when they see some of the stuff they, it's going to be ballistic.
I'm afraid that this is going to run and run. The BBC are looking to run a story (they have been in some other local bikeshops asking questions) and the police are looking into the "destruction of protected woodland". In retrospect it was somewhat naive to think that this event was going to run on the Ranmore cheeky trails.
I love riding the cheeky trails on Ranmore/White Down never mind Pitch/Winterfold etc.... but lets not give ourselves grief and flag up that they are there. A "blindeye" alround is a good compromise.
OOPS - better get up there today before the local constabulary move in!
Again I'm using common sense
is that a first for you Hora? how was it? liberating or a bit underwhelming?
So in summary, how do we get williams extreme events to eff off and stop trying to make money out of an event that isn't needed or wanted and is just causing aggro in the area?
spacemonkey - MemberWhat happens if someone has a proper bad accident, e.g life changing or even death, on an 'illegal' trail on land owned by Mr X? Anyone they can sue? Anyone liable? Or just the fault of the rider?
You would have to show the landowner was negligent. That he had a duty of care towards the land user and that he failed in this duty.
If the landowner does not know about or has sanctioned the trails its very hard to see how anyone could sue.
As far as I am aware there has never been a case in the UK of of this
I can't believe how short sighted the organisers of this event were to think they could run something on 'barely tolerated' trails on National Trust land.
They do seem to have ****ed it up for everyone - if the Ranger in question is 'anti-bike' this is likely to lead to cheeky trails all over the area being demolished and, possibly, attempts made to prosecute those that built/maintain them.
Anyone been on whitedown in the last few days to see if the trails still there?
See Williams now advertising some Night floodlit event!
BOYCOTT them I say - none of this would have happened without.
The ranmore ranger was turning a blind eye until it became official...
Whitedown I believe is Wotton estate so NT ranger doesnt get that far hopefully - not that Wotton know for their pro-biking stance!!
Lynch them!
Who are Williams? Are they affiliated to Nirvana Cycles? I highly doubt it somehow - Nirvana are brilliant and have been putting (legit!) man-hours into the area for years whereas these Williams people seems like short-sighted douchetards. Shame on them for threatening to mess up a status quo which was keeping everyone relevant happy. F*** 'em with a pinecone. The risk now seems to be that all the stuff in the region may be threatened not just the two good trails we've already lost. Still I do oh so love riding Barry Knows Best and Yoghurt Pots ad nauseam.
It is exactly this kind of pure BS which is making me move towards climbing and away from mountain biking. Who bought tickets to this event? Why do you need to be timed and ranked to validate your experience on these trails - which are all about fun anyway, not pure speed? Cocks
Stupid think is the very same NT local team will happily put a 7k rubble path around Holmwood common - and they moan about 400m of trails!!
[url] http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/Residents-fight-pound-200k-path-common/story-13359618-detail/story.html [/url]
"The National Trust has an inherent interest in maintaining the environment but another goal is to get people out enjoying the countryside"
Who are Williams? Are they affiliated to Nirvana Cycles? I highly doubt it somehow
From their web site...
"In association with Nirvana Cycles of Westcott, Surrey"
The whole event is part of the "Nirvana Cycles Surrey Hills Gravity Enduro Series". Though I have to admit I've not heard of it before.
I think it's being somewhat unfair on Williams (and by implication Nirvana). Arguably there's a short sightedness here, but look at the truths here and you'll see the NT ranger is being way over the top, or at least maybe it's the local press. Putting aside the lies, if it's a case that the ranger doesn't approve of the event then it's the NT at fault for approving it without consulting him first!
What should have happened is a full consultation with all involved and they'd come back saying they can't have it in that specific location, but perhaps they could set aside some land for approved use. As for existing trails, I seriously doubt the ranger never knew about them, or if he didn't then he's not doing much of a job to keep tabs on the land. But even then they were harmless. Cheeky perhaps, but walkers don't use those kinds of trails, they don't involve damage to the trees (despite what the press claims), and they're generally in low use compared to the tourist trails on Holmbury.
The Ranger drives along the coach road several times a day to get to the NT offices at Landbarn farm, I walk my dog along there most days and always land rovers along there. - so must have seen the steep section over the roots on to the coach road. It has been there what, 4 years at least! Suspect he had to be seen to be doing something about it after NT approached. And the local press hacks going on about bandit trails etc.
See you later thenmaking me move towards climbing and away from mountain biking
From the Nirvana site:
"When WEE asked us to be one of the sponsors for the above event we said yes, on two conditions. One we don't have any involvement in organising or arranging the event (too much hard work!) Two, full permission is gained from all the relevant landowners. I thought this would be a huge task but initially WEE proved me wrong. However, it has proved an unsurmountable task & the event will be postponed. See WEE website for details. One positive though was the local councils support & keeness for the event to take place, a pleasant surprise. These sort of events take place all over the country & all over the world but sadly...not Surrey!"
Good or bad news depending on your POV. I personally could do without it happening. Biker-public relations on the hills only seem to be getting worse.
I've also been on the receiving end of the mysterious 'rude woman' in Nirvana. I took a wheel in one weekday for some advice and she told me basically to go away. Haven't been back since.
[i]Why do you need to be timed and ranked to validate your experience on these trails - which are all about fun anyway, not pure speed? Cocks [/i]
Assume you'd also say the same to the elite downhill riders on the World Circuit, people participating in Polaris type events and anyone else who at weekends likes to enter competitive events?
[i]What should have happened is a full consultation with all involved and they'd come back saying they can't have it in that specific location, but perhaps they could set aside some land for approved use.[/i]
Williams Events had a meeting with Mole Valley District Council, The National Trust and English Heritage before any work began. Maps were pawed over, plans submitted and permission given. What then happened, after several weeks, was the local Ranger asked to see progress. Williams Events took the Ranger to the site to show said progress. The 'mood' that day was still positive from the Ranger but an email the following morning from the Ranger expressed he was not in favor of the event after all. The Nation Trust then withdrew permission following consultation with the Ranger.
It seems all a bit back to front to me - surely on site meetings with the ranger should have happened early on, especially with the hillside being as sensitive as they say? To have the local ranger not knowing where things were happening so late in day the suggests that the approvals didn't come from the right places initially (if they did get actually ever exist....)
From what I've heard from elsewhere is that a provisional maybe had come from MVDC about using the dirt jumps but that still needed a lot more info, risk assessments etc, so nothing set in stone.
Whatever the exact order of events, I think it's now unlikely that permission will be given for an event anywhere in the Surrey Hills. Due to press coverage it's now too sensitive for the Council to agree.
I've got mixed feelings - part of me thinks it's a pity we can't have an event like this and part of me thinks I like things the way they are.
Any truth in the rumour that the Police have been up on Ranmore showing YouTube clips to riders asking them to identify people in the clips seen riding the now destroyed trails? Rumour also says they're looking to prosecute someone!!!
That has got to be a rumour!!
a few of me on vimeo riding whitedown ... 😯
Who are Williams? Are they affiliated to Nirvana Cycles?
I believe the bloke who set up Williams is an old customer of their's, hence them maintaining contact.
Thinking much the same - might take down my postings on YouTube for the time being.
were they planning on using whitedown do you know DTP?
Any truth in the rumour that the Police have been up on Ranmore showing YouTube clips to riders asking them to identify people in the clips seen riding the now destroyed trails? Rumour also says they're looking to prosecute someone!!!
I guess the old Bill can justify traipsing around the woods in search of riders and trail-builders instead of catching hardened perps on the mean streets of Dorking.
[i]were they planning on using whitedown do you know DTP? [/i]
No, it was too far away from Dorking West 4x track where the signing in and trade stalls etc were supposed to be. Whitedown is a good half hours ride from Dorking West. Really glad 'cause my favorite trail on Ranmore is over Whitedown neck of the woods!
thank god for that - would have been a disaster to loose those...
so only really lost Hot Buritto and Grievous.
Apparently whilst talking to local bike shops the BBC reporter mentioned the police investigation. Of course this could well be the media looking for a story rather than anything.
🙂catching hardened perps on the mean streets of Dorking
Dangerous place the mean streets of Dorking (well dangerous because of the yummy mummies in Range Rovers anyway)
[i]thank god for that - would have been a disaster to loose those...
so only really lost Hot Buritto and Grevious. [/i]
Yep - just those two
Well apart from outside the "old house at home" 1am on a Friday night 😆
Apparently whilst talking to local bike shops the BBC reporter mentioned the police investigation
I'd love to be a fly on the wall if/when they speak to Simon at Nirvana. My bet is that he'd either 1) say he knows nothing, 2) tell them to FRO or 3) send them on a wild goose chase in the dingly dell that is the Surrey Hills.
Sort of on-topic. Anyone know the name of the trail way out to the west side of Ranmore? Wont be too specific but starts in a car park and finishes on a road - has a big step up (if you're looking for it) around half way down.
beyond whitedown ?
Yep - further west but not as far as Newlands Corner. Sorry to be vague!
ah, shall have to explore!! if you don't mind could you mail me the location!! I think I know where you are talking about .mail in profile.
Done
This story about the trees and badger set a has made the BBC Surrey breakfast show at 1hr 50 mins in
there'll be a pitchfork wielding mob of red socks there before you know it.