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So my Garmin account is linked to my Strava but until lockdown I never really paid much attention to it. Now that I have been looking I noticed a couple of things. Now I'm not super fast but I'm def not slow so I started wondering how some people were posting such times.
One segment up round Mugdock in Glasgow the KOM is sub 15 seconds. I'm doing it in over a minute. It appears as though the start and finish are on the double track and all you have to do is hit these two points as fast as possible in order to get the KOM i.e. by blasting straight down the track despite the segment clearly running off into the forest. Plenty of other riders have hammered it down here as fast as possible in order to try to claim the KOM. I even tried myself one night and came pretty close but just to prove to myself that's what they had been doing.
On another segment my time is 23 seconds. Somebody else did it in 5 seconds to get the KOM and there average speed was 42mph! That's crazy and impossible!
Now round another segment the guy with the KOM rode to the area and then repeated the segment end over end 10 times during one ride, purely to capture said KOM. Am I wrong to think this is strange/sad/boring/strange behaviour?
The problem with any short Strava segment is the recording device, many only take a data point every 4 seconds, so it’s easy to lose or gain 8 seconds before adding on how accurately it triggers the start and finish location.
Somebody else did it in 5 seconds to get the KOM and there average speed was 42mph! That’s crazy and impossible!
Downhill? Seems possible. I regularly break 40mph. I was once overtaken by another competitor in the same time trial while I was doing 43mph. The fastest I have ever been was 55mph (descent to Auchmuirbridge in Fife with the wind behind)
My friend in his late sixties was telling us about taking his road bike to the Pyrenees and ended with "...doing 74mph. I could have gone faster but I got scared"
It just isn't that accurate. Even if the other riders didn't take a Strava line you can get an impossible time. I held a Kom at BPW for a bit, no way I was that fast. Just the way the GPS cookie crumbles sometimes.
Shorter segments are especially pointless.
GPS errors, e bikes, nut jobs and people firing Garmins down trails from trebuchets. Not worth comparing times unless it's your own previous attempt using the same recording device, or someone you're riding with in real life.
I sometimes doubt whether some of the years-older KOMs on my local trails are still comparable, for example having been set before the trail was eroded or awkward chicane fences put across fire road crossings. But most often there is someone within the past year or so close to the leading time.
I'd very much like to see some helmet camera videos of what a KOM run looks like on some of my local trails.
I can understand GPS errors but if you could see the 5 second KOM you would realise there's no way anyone is getting down there in that time. Just had a look at the guys route on that day in question and he's stuck to the double track again somehow hitting the start and finish point, but in order to achieve this time, you have to be honking it specifically knowing what your trying to achieve.
The repeated attempts in one session just to gain the KOM has no explanation aside from behavioural.
I agree with putting me against me and that's what I've been doing, just wondered on what others thought of what seems like strange behaviour.
repeated the segment end over end 10 times during one ride
There may be another explanation. I’ve done this repeating the same section again and again while trying to tune a fork/shock with a ShockWiz. (Although I’m in no danger of getting a KOM)
Anyone that takes Strava seriously is an idiot, basically. It's good fun and I like it but it just doesn't have the capability to really be the "race strangers" app it tries to be- doesn't properly track which exact route you're on and doesn't have the timing or dimensional accuracy to really know which trail you're on or to stop shortcuts and that. Just enjoy it for what it is.
(except for Local Legend, that's serious)
Am I wrong to think this is strange/sad/boring/strange behaviour?
You are correct. Just ignore it for your own sanity.
The repeated attempts in one session just to gain the KOM has no explanation aside from behavioural.
Is it any stranger than running round a 400m track 10 times? Going up the same climbing wall 10 times in a session? Doing 10 press ups?
Some people are fast. They get faster by practicing specific turns, features and trails. This allows them to replicate their practiced technique on similar features during races.
Some people are fast. They get faster by practicing specific turns, features and trails. This allows them to replicate their practiced technique on similar features during races.
Yes, and some are obsessed to an unhealthy degree.
https://road.cc/content/news/270803-strava-encourages-obsessive-tendencies
I can understand GPS errors but if you could see the 5 second KOM you would realise there’s no way anyone is getting down there in that time
Er, so therefore it's a GPS error?
It's not just about recording intervals, GPS errors can be caused by loss of signal then how Strava interprets that erroneous data.
except for Local Legend, that’s serious
That's a "sorry you're not good enough to get a kom but thanks for turning up lots of times trying " 😉
I do like when I'm comparing times strava tells me "take 54s off your time to take the crown" aye right I was breathing out my arse as it was thanks
Don't forget microlights!
At my local DH bit, the Kom is 10 seconds, everyone else is 30. The Kom was set by some on in a microlight! Clearly a mtb'er from their Strava profile!
I had my phone and my wife's phone both running Strava one ride. Her phone was 2s faster down several DH segments despite being in the same pocket.
I sometimes doubt whether some of the years-older KOMs on my local trails are still comparable,
A 2 minute tricky all out blast that I was swapping KOMs with another person on a few years back certainly isn't as a massive tree fell across the path and it is now very long winded to get around it plus there are now blind corners. The fact that people walk on it and it is one of the no ride areas means nobody is going to be beating the KOM.
The repeated attempts in one session just to gain the KOM has no explanation aside from behavioural.
If I'm going out for a training ride I will confess to using segments as my intervals IF they are the right length etc. Why not? It gives me a bit of extra motivation/interest, and I don't cry myself to sleep when I inevitably lose a KOM later.
+1 on a combination of lack of accuracy, on riders actively seeking out days to ride as straight a line as possible, and for every way possible to cheat from eBikes to Strava lines.
I've come off Strava, happy to just compare my own times.
I used to live near an airport, the cycle route segment KOM nearby was clearly set in an aeroplane! You also get the set in a car etc.
Strava is a bit of fun but do find it weird that when people do get KOM's by accident that they don't take it down. "Oops I forgot to turn my GPS off when I drove home, oh well, just look at all these KOM's I got, what a winner".
Although I guess you can flag them up but that also seems petty, it's not exactly Christophe Bassons levels of standing up to cheating.
I sometimes doubt whether some of the years-older KOMs on my local trails are still comparable
Yeah, same as Kerley really a gully near me had some "improvements" made to it by weather gods and there's no way anyone is getting near the KOM now. It's arguable that the segment needs to be retired and a new one out in its place. There are some folk l know that can throw a bike down stuff that you'd not able to get near, but for sure some KOMs are hugely questionable. This issue says more about Strava itself, it's unashamedly skewed to roadies really
There's a short, hairpin road descent near me I ride most weeks. My KOM is currently 5 seconds at an estimated 78 mph. Take that, losers! 🙂
Basically, if you ride a short segment often enough, eventually your GPS will cough up a ridiculously inaccurate time.
If you really want to see sad Strava behaviour have a look at the monthly distance challenge tables. People knocking out 200km a month suddenly doing 10 300km in a week!
I don't see anything wrong with sessioning Strava segments multiple times or basing your training on getting a KOM or whatever, I assume these people haven't given up their day jobs to do it.
I think we all know at this point that anything that happens on Strava needs to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. I might be wrong about this but I was given to understand that anything that takes less than minute is basically pointless due to the margin of error. So many road segments are pointless stretches of anonymous high streets that are 60 seconds or less I tend to think Strava should just allow only segments that are going to take over a minute (or whatever is deeemed enough) to complete.
A longer road hill-climb segment though, with data gathered over several months definitely reflects the overall trends in my personal fitness so it I find it accurate enough in that sense.
My walk to work is 2.9 miles. On Saturday it was 3.9 miles.
I doubt strava is accurate to a second!
Anyone that takes my kom is clearly cheating on an ebike so I don’t let it worry me.
I guess you can flag them up but that also seems petty
hell no, its how I fill my day. martin let me know where that is please. 😉
I sometimes doubt whether some of the years-older KOMs on my local trails are still comparable,
I've got one that I'm proud of that was set a few years ago now and there's pretty much no way it could be beaten now. It's from the top of the track that runs from Y Das to the bottom of Grwyne Fawr reservoir in the Brecon Beacons. The whole thing was resurfaced back in 2013 and had bedded in lovely when I took the original KOM only for another local to go out and beat it a few days later. Didn't think anything of it until I was up there again and a thunderstorm broke tight above me so I absolutely hammered it down just to get away from the lightning! A combination of near-perfect conditions and motivation meant I smashed the KOM and it's never been beaten, I can't even get close myself. The track is now a lot tougher than it was and the stream crossings are now a lot slower than they were. The segment is straight and a few miles long too so GPS accuracy would only count for a few seconds at most. Until they resurface the track again that KOM is safe, especially as everyone stops to look at the view at halfway. The average speed is above the e bike limit too.
My walk to work is 2.9 miles. On Saturday it was 3.9 miles.
Still drunk and weaving side to side?
martin let me know where that is please.
Near Skipton. That's all you're getting!
“Oops I forgot to turn my GPS off when I drove home, oh well, just look at all these KOM’s I got, what a winner”.
I once briefly had a load of road KOMs from where I was riding to the local hospital 😂
Interestingly Strava noticed and said something along the lines of "did you leave your phone on for the drive home?", and it was easy to trim the car ride out of the record.
The only genuine KOM I have I made the ride private since the fellow I was riding with clearly beat me down it, but didn't get the crown because he was sat at the bottom waiting for me.
This sort of thing, combined with general GPS inaccuracies, mean Strava times for me are of passing interest at best. Its real value is as a tool for exploring and finding new trails, IMO.
I tend to think Strava should just allow only segments that are going to take over a minute (or whatever is deeemed enough) to complete.
They did change it, you can't set up really short segments any more - the GPS errors made them ridiculous. I've got a world record time KOM on a 200m section of the running track I use regularly, while I'm not terrible at running I'm no Usain Bolt 😀
These days I only check out my personal times over sections as I know I'm not cheating.
I had a genuine mtb kom flagged once,pi5sed me off tbf so I went back following day and rode same time.....take that flagger!
Tbh..i'm bored of the app and what it encourages
Which segments Haggis1978?
Never mind obvious artefacts like the 5 sec in the OP, I still jointly hold a KoM that I set 6 or 7 years ago. Number 1 of 20,000+ 😎
I think it's "real" since I've other times close to it but it's clearly one that's optimised in terms of Garmin recording intervals. I was on a new bike so a bit excitable probably and I had a light following wind into the start ... and I was pretty heavy back then too.
It's bollocks though. 33 sec down a s-bend road descent. Too short to mean anything and it's on a route I used to do at least weekly to see how I was going - about a 45 min loop that I did at close to full gas. Most other riders will brake much more down it because it's rough and also "blind" at the bottom bend, which is usually wet & gravelly from field run-off and so it's a bit intimidating. Local knowledge counts, esp when many of the other 20,000 are on wiggle rides or just on holiday.
I also reckon I (anyone) could beat it by 10% if I really went for it - sprint into it and have a spotter at the bottom so I could go faster round the bottom bend on a drier outside line without the risk of a car coming. What'd be the point in that? If someone takes "my" KoM I'm not going to try
Near Skipton
End of the Roman Rd? Otherwise Crookrise to Embsay.
Anyway whilst short koms are silly, I still find leaderboards slightly motivating. Wind's in the right direction, ground's not too soggy, why not have a go? Road koms are totally about starting at the back of the group, finishing near the front and with a favourable wind. Only ever had one of those, which lasted until another of the group got round to uploading from his Garmin. Main thing is they all count...
What does Strava do with flagged rides anyway?
I had a CX race flagged by someone as I somehow beat a pro downhiller's time on the local BMX track which was part of the course
Maybe Strava are still adjudicating on the case, I mean, I was flying on that section, it was the only part of the course I made any overtakes 😎
In 'Fast After 59' Joe Friel encourages the use of Strava segments as a form of interval training, to shake off the Long, Slow, Distance riding that many older riders fall into.
I used to pay a little attention to them but as I'm now a non-paying user I ignore them..
What does Strava do with flagged rides anyway?
I think it just removes your ride from the KOM tables. You still see it but it's Private?
I know plenty of KOM hunters, especially on the road bikes and cross/gravel bikes. Always planning their ride around favourable wind directions for the segments.
One particular local rider will notice what KOMs other riders they follow have recently taken and within a few days he will go out just with the aim to take off their KOMs. He always seems to target the same few riders as well. Very strange.
One particular local rider will notice what KOMs other riders they follow have recently taken and within a few days he will go out just with the aim to take off their KOMs. He always seems to target the same few riders as well. Very strange.
Lol there is a guy like that local to me, but with running segments. He must scour the leaderboards pretty closely or whatever but as soon as anyone grabs a KOM he will almost without exception take it over a week or so later, no matter how obscure.
He's done it to me a couple of times and I only really mind in the sense that I hope he realises it really doesn't bother me.
In any event he is really impressively fast as any KOM he seems able to bag it and I do think he's genuinely doing them. Been doing it for several years now though so the novelty clearly hasn't worn off.
on my old commute the whole top ten on one road was people riding to brighton, then leaving their Garmin's on for the train journey home, and the segment ran parallel to the train line by Balham station. There's no way people were doing 100mph on a bike on a flat bit, in London.
If you want to understand the lack of accuracy then it's worth spending a bit of time looking at the raw data from a gpx (or other) file. It's only a text file with timestamps and location info so it's pretty easy to understand. If you combine an understanding of that with the lack of precision in GPS (which can wildly by device and conditions - tree cover is bad for this) then you'll realise why some people have "impossible" KOM's.
Personally, it's a bit annoying if someone has a clearly impossible KOM but it tends to go away on longer segments. Unless people are in a car/motorbike/etc - which is pretty obvious.
I sometimes doubt whether some of the years-older KOMs on my local trails are still comparable
They definitely aren't round here. I've got a local loop that I've done 51 times according to Strava, I'm trying to get round in under an hour, my PB is 1.00.45 but one of the descents is now so badly chewed up by MXers that you have to carefully pick your way through the ruts, rather than swoop down it.
It's not just MXers - it's also Mother Gaia - she keeps filling the middle section with mud which knocks 15 seconds off one of the climbs :). All my good times on that climb (and my KOM!) were set after long dry spells.
on my old commute the whole top ten on one road was people riding to brighton, then leaving their Garmin’s on for the train journey home, and the segment ran parallel to the train line by Balham station.
I'd been trying a segment on the CX bike over winter, a perfect 4 minute stretch of singletrack with muddy tyre ruts on either side, one momentary loss of concentration and in you'd be in the ditch. Near the end there were some tricky ditch crossings and then a final, frame clogging mud patch.
I was absolutely doing myself in on it and still getting nowhere near the KOM, or even in the top several hundred (3 minutes off KOM on a 5 minute section). Turns out Strava was confusing it with the canal tow path on the other side 🙄
On a happier note, had planned 3 reps up the same 12 minute climb today, which is perfectly aligned with the stiff 26km/h tailwind 😎
Anyone that takes Strava seriously is an idiot, basically. It’s good fun...
People could take it seriously because it's fun?
It seems to be getting even less accurate lately, rarely picking up segment starts correctly.
Nothing to do with me getting older and slower, obvs.
I agree Local Legends are mildly embarrassing 'cos they show what a creature of habit I've become route-wise lately.
I just checked and I have 21 at Rivington at the mo, compared to four KOMs there.
It'd be nice if it showed all your top 10s as well, eh?
roadies steal off-road KOMS all too often the algorythms are tuned for roadies as they're the biggest market share #mtb-truthers
It’d be nice if it showed all your top 10s as well, eh?
You can get all sorts of additional breakdowns using Veloviewer. One option is to show the segments that you are closest to the KOM (in either absolute or percentage times) so you can concentrate on those.