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My Starling Murmur is flippin’ ace. It’s the stainless one so throw in the raw finish and it looks great too.
TBH I don’t know why the average mtber wants carbon fibre, lots of reasons why it’s problematic for the average rider in UK conditions
What reasons?
Lots of people all over the world might be able to weld steel but getting someone to not blow a massive hole in your paper thin tubes or messily MIG it beyond further repair is another thing.
You can carry round a carbon repair kit in your pocket.
Is repairability really a big driver in people choosing steel bikes though? Or just something people trot out in internet discussions?
I'd see it as:
1. Ride feel
2. Looks
3. Price
4. Weight
5. Durability
6. Repairability
im enjoying this post levels of trolling are pretty funny.
1. Ride feel
2. Looks
3. Price
4. Weight
5. Durability
6. Repairability
This is basically dead on for me. I own a few and its basically down to I like how steel bikes ride and the fact Cotics looks amazing is an absolute plus. if I dent my frame im not going to fix it im just going to get another one.
I would only include 2. Looks and maybe 3. Price.
As for the rest
1. Ride feel - Material makes so little difference it is not even a factor even less so with low PSI tyres and even less so again with suspension on the frame
4. Weight - Weight makes so little difference it is not a factor (2 watts for a KG saved)
5. Durability - Does anyone have their frame long enough to even care about that, who is still riding their out of date 2010 steel frame (I am riding a 1980's steel frame by the way so I care but I am not in the fickle world of modern MTB!)
6. Repairability - Pretty much same as above
I’m with you kerley. Might sound daft but looks are a definite factor for me. Just makes me want to ride more if I like how my bike looks. Price is also a big factor as I have little disposable income. They’re my main two factors for me along with sensible design for the UK climate. I just happen to really like the looks of steel. Nothing more complicated than that really.
If we all liked the same things it would be a very boring world.
1. Ride feel – Material makes so little difference it is not even a factor even less so with low PSI tyres and even less so again with suspension on the frame
Tell us about the steel FS bikes you've ridden to substantiate this please.
Or just something people trot out in internet discussions?
Don’t forget recyclability.
“ 1. Ride feel – Material makes so little difference it is not even a factor even less so with low PSI tyres and even less so again with suspension on the frame”
It would be nice if this was true but it isn’t. I’m holding a crying toddler so can’t be bothered to write more but engineering analysis of dynamic loads on bikes across the full frequency range, slo-mo footage and riders’ experiences shows that materials and structures matter a lot. People are heavy, bikes are not very stiff and accelerations are high.
Surely ride feel depends on your body weight too? If a frame is built to flex, it will flex more the heavier you are. Maybe not at all if you're very light?
Why would you want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally.
I think there are a lot of unfair assumptions there.
Firstly, are the workers all poorly paid? Maybe less than the UK, but possibly not by local standards.
Taiwan is fairly well off
Bare in mind that price purchasing power makes this go further.
Secondly, why is skill per se important? With carbon manufacturing, the mould does a lot of the work, I expect there is some skill in the lay up, but they standardise the procedure.
Let's think about Hope, for example, the skill is in the design, but the process is highly automated by CNC machines. That's how they can afford to manufacture in the UK.
I'd much rather have a machine made crank than a hand crafted one. Less chance of human error.
I don't fancy a carbon frame as they are pricier and I worry about impact
durability. I expect there are lots of pluses including weight, complex frame shapes and stiffness.
I've got a steel hardtail, steel commuter and an alloy full sus. I've considered a steel full sus and tested a Production Privee no5 which was a pig, but I think that was the bike, not the material.
Aesthetics are subjective, but I think that many steel full sussers are real lookers.
Durability – Does anyone have their frame long enough to even care about that, who is still riding their out of date 2010 steel frame (I am riding a 1980’s steel frame by the way so I care but I am not in the fickle world of modern MTB!)
Same, still have my Trailstar LT and my missus is on an Inbred. Of course my newest bike is 5 years old but hey ho.
if I dent my frame im not going to fix it im just going to get another one.
@joepud next time you start lecturing folk on here I hope you take a second to consider that statement and what it says about you as an individual.
I think there are a lot of unfair assumptions there.
You may wish to revisit who was making those ‘assumptions’.
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Low batch bike but probably better than any carbon or AL bike I have tested for ride feel and just flat out speed up and down. Pretty much 3 things I look for. If it beats a Norco optic/sight c1/ripmo up and down and feels better its an ace bike.
@joepud next time you start lecturing folk on here I hope you take a second to consider that statement and what it says about you as an individual.
erm.. ok, what exactly does it say about me as an individual? Personally I wouldn't want to ride a frame with a dent in it I just wouldn't feel safe. Same way I wouldn't ride a wheel with a broken spoke or thats dented. I don't get how that was a lecture. Your reaction to my comment was pretty peak.
Just to digress a little bit...
in the world of motorcycles with aluminium frames Ducati seem to get but just fine with trellis steel frames...
and elsewhere in the MTB world Kingdom have a pretty devout following with their titanium FS frames...
add in BTR, Curtis etc...
makes you think...
I do think we’d make quite different decisions about all our purchasing if we could meet every single person involved in the supply chain of the products we buy.
A supply chain… from tube to trail…
I do think we’d make quite different decisions about all our purchasing if we could meet every single person involved in the supply chain of the products we buy.
Well yes. You would only buy those products where it was possible to meet every person involved in the supply chain.
Despite all two pages of froth it might actually be worth examining the opening sentence of this thread:
Keep seeing new models all the time...
Are you sure about that OP?
I mean yes they do exist, but they're not exactly common are they? SBC/Trek/Giant aren't churning out lots of Steel FS bikes are they? You won't see every other rider at a trailcentre on a steel FS bike.
I'm only aware of a handful TBH and none are really what I would call 'mainstream' MTB products...
The simple fact is they're a niche, within a niche, (within another niche?).
Steel framed FS bikes tend to come from smaller manufacturers, who often work primarily in steel because steel construction can be adapted far more readily than other techniques (adjusting a jig, and selecting different tube profiles Vs new tooling for Al and Composites) and generally it suits their setup and the preferences of their customers, they can produce their own geometry as they see fit, or customise it if necessary.
Ultimately if you decide you want an AL or Composite FS bike, you are pretty well catered for by the various larger manufacturers.
If you have to ask why a steel (or Ti) FS bike is even a thing you can buy; you're probably not the target market, and I wouldn't spend anymore time worrying about it...
My cotic frame and shock weighs almost exactly the same as the on one codeine (all aluminium) that it replaced.
not just that a few years ago I rented a SC Hightower MK1 for a test ride. the price tag of that bike was £5.5k with a pretty high spec. A mate accompanied me on his Cotic Flare (non long shot) with a hodge podge of old and new bits and bobs - £3k max. On paper the SC was lighter, but in the real world with the bike lift test there was so little in it you could barely tell. So you're not actually buying a huge weight reduction with carbon and on balance the Flare rode better. Neither of us were any quicker on the SC and because of the silly low height BB we were probably slower over the more technical stuff because we were constantly concerned about pedal strikes and bashing the chainring. The Flare was the superior bike absolutely no doubt about it.
The moral of the story is it matters not what the frame material is...they all have pro's and cons which balance out any advantages and disadvantages, but what is important is how well the bike has been engineered and made.
I fail to see any compelling reason to go carbon for a normal average bod apart from bling factor (nothing wrong with that...we all like nice kit). But you're kidding yourself if you think you're getting any noticeable or real benefit just from material choice alone. A poorly engineered carbon bike (and alot are poorly engineered even from the big brands) will not be as good as a well engineered bike made from any other material.
Buying a bike just because its carbon, or titanium or steel is silly. There are many things you should be considering other than frame material. But the marketing factor is strong here...its easier to sell Carbon..you know that stuff F1 cars are made of...to a non-technical solicitor who wont necessarily understand or appreciate any fancy pants suspension kinematics or manufacturing quality or any other aspect that you should ideally consider when buying a bike then making that link to F1 is all that is needed to part them from their money.
Blimey is F1 really that pervasive? I suppose it would explain the current trend for coil springs.
Blimey is F1 really that pervasive? I suppose it would explain the current trend for coil springs.
F1 cars use torsion bars! /winkyface
Wot like my old Morris Minor? And lever-arm dampers? Double blimey!
F1 cars use torsion bars! /winkyface
Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface
i’ve not thought mountain bikes have looked good since the introduction of suspension forks.
I've been working on that.
erm.. ok, what exactly does it say about me as an individual? Personally I wouldn’t want to ride a frame with a dent in it I just wouldn’t feel safe. Same way I wouldn’t ride a wheel with a broken spoke or thats dented.
It says that rather than fix something you are prepared to just buy a new one, consumerism at its worst. And yes, you said you would just replace rather than repair.
That wasn't a lecture but you're quite handy at handing them out when it comes to race etc. I've not forgotten that pile on you were quite happy to wade into and character assassinate me after I was set up. All I'm saying is next time someone says something that upsets you, instead of pulling out the putchforks and acting all holier than thou maybe stop and consider that you're not perfect yourself.
That aside, I'm genuinely surprised you have such an attitude to consumerism. Didn't see that one.
Tell us about the steel FS bikes you’ve ridden to substantiate this please.
No need. Triangles made of steel, alu or carbon are all triangles and very strong by their nature and are not going to be flexing about enough too actually feel anything WHEN running on a squidgy tyre and a spring/shock, bearings/bushes joining the two triangles.
Frame material amounts to about 1% of the compliance of even a rigid road bike running on 25c tyres so it sure isn't going to be more than that on a full suspension MTB.
This is your occasional reminder that bikes are 3D objects.
“ No need. Triangles made of steel, alu or carbon are all triangles and very strong by their nature and are not going to be flexing about enough too actually feel anything WHEN running on a squidgy tyre and a spring/shock, bearings/bushes joining the two triangles.”
How is the view from the summit?
I shan’t argue because I’ve responded to your posts about this before. You were wrong then too and too close-minded to learn. Shame because you seem quite bright…
I've got a rocketmax on order.
Never ridden a steel bike since I got properly into biking a few years ago. Currently on a ally cube stereo.
Main reason I ended up ordering a cotic is down to the UK engineering and mostly UK manufacturing. It's also a beautiful bike and I really like what cotic are doing.
I bought my cube nearly 5 years ago on the basis that it seemed like very good value for money - it was.
No need. Triangles made of steel, alu or carbon are all triangles and very strong by their nature and are not going to be flexing about enough too actually feel anything WHEN running on a squidgy tyre and a spring/shock, bearings/bushes joining the two triangles.
what has strength got to do with flexing? 😂
Why would you want to buy a carbon framed bike made on the other side of the world by relatively unskilled workers working for a poor wage, paid by companies owned by Vc funds?
I mean, if you have enough disposable income to buy a nice bike for riding around muddy tracks and fields why not support a U.K. or maybe European company who make stuff more locally
Utter bobbins the far eastern workers are equally if not more skilled than UK or european workers even if they are just making bicycles.
Yes there are good welders but those making bikes are few and far between they realised they can make more money welding in industrial scenarios to make far more money.
Show me an aluminium bicycle manufacturer apart from orange and their welding is not pretty to start with, certainly seen many far eastern bikes finished better.
Uk made carbon we have hope and thats it and again one trick pony bikes.
So saying cheap labour is unskilled is just another arse talking through mouth on this forum
Go and meet some of these people and insult them to their faces.
Go and meet some of these people and insult them to their faces.
I think he probably has already. Maybe things have changed since he was buying from the Far East?
And Carbon Wasp in Leeds make carbon frames from scratch, in the UK, not just for their own brand either.
I love these threads where kerley posts up with absolute certainty about modern full sus bikes while giving the fact he rides a 1980's track bike as evidence of how he's right.
I'm just grateful that there's so much choice out there from massive to one man band manufacturers that build in all kinds of materials.
Pretty much something out there now for any taste. Sure beats being limited to riding a 1980's track bike...
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Morph Steel 160/142. Years of abuse.
Well it's got me looking more closely at a Cotic Jeht or Flare Max 🙂
Hopefully I'll be able to have a fondle of someone's Rocket Max soon to see how they look up close!
This thread is making me think I need a steel full bouncer now! And I don't really know why.
The thing with steel is its still looked upon as a cheaper heavier material thats flexy and rust prone so to some people it's a weird choice for a full suss that's gonna get wet n muddy most of the year.
When most mountainbikes were steel they seemed a lot more affordable, the introduction of alloy as the new norm is when mountain biking started getting expensive, so when these steel bikes are being made with the same price tag as carbon and alloy it raises questions, I'm suprised there isn't more titanium full sussers being made as it seems some people will pay whatever it costs and still argue its worth it. Is it the niche factor that's appealing, are most buyers anoraks or retro enthusiasts, adamant that steel is real, its certainly a dividing subject, I also get the the impression that Cotic owners are older dudes or young with a grandad mindset like Jon richardson, how many riders would gladly own an alloy, carbon or steel frame compared to riders who would never go steel for full sus.
I'm on my second step full sus. I'll be brutally honest, I generally just love the way they look. But they also ride really well, current frame has some nice flex in the rear end which I think helps on of cancer sections.
What I also like is that they come from small companies with great customer service.
Take this weekend, I'm at the Ard Rock. I had a 10 minute chat with the company owner/frame designer of my current frame. Also chatted to the merchandise man, one of the fabricators and bumped into the chap the runs the owners Facebook group. Was just really nice!
Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface
Nope, they're not.
A torsion bar is twisting, the bar that makes up a coil spring is simply bending.
Hope those sections aren't malignant.
Coil springs are torsion bars! /winkyface
you know what i mean! though this is interesting information.
Wot like my old Morris Minor? And lever-arm dampers? Double blimey!
probably easier to change that the ones in the minor.
A coil spring doesn’t bend. It twists.
Leaf springs bend.