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hey all,
I am hoping someone can help me understand how a bike with slightly different geometry to my current one will feel. I thought i had a good handle on geometry, but the below has made me question if i am getting too caught up in a few mm's here and there!
I currently have a Vitus Sommet, size large, which i feel fits me well. A nice upright position for climbing and a good attack position for descending. I am 5'9. so technically should be on a medium, but tried a friends and it felt too cramped, plus my previous Optic felt good, if a touch too long (480mm reach). Atherton also measured me up and put me on a 470 reach on their bikes.
There are two bikes that interest me greatly. The Raaw Madonna and the new Airdrop Edit MX. Looking at the sizing chart and the geo, i am pretty sure i would be comfy on a S3 Edit. The reach numbers are within a couple of mm, the wheelbase is slightly shorter (due to being a mullet) and the stack is about 6mm lower than the Vitus.
The Raaw on the other hand is a chunk short in reach (455 compared to 471), but has a stack 4mm taller (assuming i go with a medium, as i feel the large would be too big).
So with the Edit I appreciate its only a small amount, but assuming all things being equal (same amount of spacers, same length stem, same height fork etc), how would the lower stack feel when on the bike? More hunched over? will the bike feel longer? When it attack position will i be more head down/have to make more effort to look ahead?
And then onto the Raaw, with a reach a chunk shorter, will i get the feeling of the bars being at my knees in attack position? Or will i naturally adapt to being further back over the bike to compensate for the shorter reach? And how will the bike feel compared to the Vitus with a combo of a shorter reach and a higher stack? More cramped? Livelier?
In a perfect world, i could throw a leg over any future purchase, but its just not possible with these (unless anyone has a medium Madonna near Worthing on the south coast?!).
And whilst i dabble occasionally with racing (much less these days, and mid pack at best), my riding centres around having fun on bikes. I very much enjoy steep technical trails when i have the opportunity. Should that be any influence on how the bikes would feel.
Any advice or feedback for my first world problem is greatly received!
You guys rule!
Building up my Big Al has just destroyed everything I 'thought' I knew about what geometry I liked.
I like my reach short with high bars, so was worried that the Big Al having a longer reach would feel too stretched out. The combination of 29'er, low BB and whatever else is going on - it feels perfect.
Go and sit on some is all I can say
how would the lower stack feel when on the bike?
+4 / -6mm stack - I wouldn't worry about that. It might be more influential when combined with a change in reach (personally I find as reach goes out I want stack to go up a bit with it) but still.. it's a thin spacer's worth.
@TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - how much difference is there between your current and new bikes?
I was all into the long when i got my Optic, went from 420 reach on a Rocky Mountain to 480 on the Norco. But in more recent times i felt i couldnt drop my heels as i was needing to be a bit more forward to weight the front wheel, so dropped to 470 which felt far better.
But despite Raaw saying a medium is right for me, i wonder if the shorter reach and higher stack will be something that doesnt work for me.
As you say, i guess i need to try and throw a leg over one if i can.... maybe a road trip to Germany is in order?!
@jameso - think you are right, its such a small difference i doubt i would notice.
In a perfect world, i could throw a leg over any future purchase, but its just not possible with these
Airdrop are going to be building demo bikes to take on tour
The new Madonna and Edit MX are definitely my favourite bikes on the market right now.
I'll ignore most of your post because I'm not a geometry wizard but you're 5'9 and you say you like steep tech trails. I'd buy the Edit.
I'm 6'2" and have a Norco Sight with 29" wheels and the rear wheel hits me in the arse often enough to be really off putting. It's unnerving at times dropping into a massive chute or over a crest and feeling the loud buzz of a knobbly tyre on your gooch. Sometimes when you're really low on the bike trying to squash a feature and it'll really grab you. It's really put me off an otherwise excellent bike.
I'm strongly considering building an Edit MX but I fear that the Norco will be almost worthless on the second hand market so I'll have to wait. I do live 30 seconds away from Airdrop HQ so when I want to try one for size it should be pretty easy.
Reach
You can change the stem. I've had 35-70mm on one bike and 50-100mm on another.
Stack
Change the bar height. One bike went from 10-50mm rise bars and felt better for it.
If you want to see what a change in stack feels like you could swap some spacers and or flip the stem.
Change in reach you can change the stem. This will have other effects, but might give you an idea of what it feels like
(Add in your vitus, wasn't sure which year)
The medium raaw will be cramped in comparison to your large optic you previously rode.
If the stacks are within +/-5mm, then it wont make a hug difference. Its when you go above that, you have to start putting more spacers under the stem, which brings the bars back to you, so the reach gets shorter. In the case of the medium raaw, the 455mm reach could be a lot less.
Use bike-stats.de makes comparisons visual and you can add bars, stems etc.
i have just moved from and XL bird to and XL Madonna (v2.2). Much prefer the shorter ett & reach and higher stack. I have long legs in proportion to my height.
in both cases the feet to grips dimension is practically the same.
also the v3 Madonna can be set as an MX wheel size.
Cheers for that rootes1.
did you have any reservations or worry’s about going with a different geo to your Bird? Or did you throw caution to the wind?
had a few birds and been going up in stack plus higher rise bars each time things felt better.
Bit nervous, but was pretty sure things would feel better. (I still have a Bird also)
could have timed the purchase better mind as mixed the v3 option and the v2.2 discount by about a month!
@rootes1 - i used that website and it was a revelation. Putting to bed a lot of my fears. So once there is enough in the piggy bank, a Madonna will be on order. did you get stung much for import duties?
Anything to be wary of with the Raaw?
Delivery was slow as got caught in customs. import was 4%, but them you pay VAT on that plus the value of the shipment.
Now the V2.2 is discounted that reduced the import etc.
Pricing is higher than Bird despite them using the same model of design local and built in Taiwan
Some things to watch - probably as i'm on XL, but the rear brake hose needs to be very long and the official routing for that and the gear cable is a bit rubbish/fiddly - see the V3 has fixed this.
But there are options for the V2.2 to sort.
Good things is that RAAW has a upcoming replacement seatstay to convert to UDH / Transmission, though you loose the chainstay length adjustment. Nice that all the suspension pivots have extra seals.
other than that, all seems good so far and keeps the Bird company - they are both (frames) built by Genio.
Did you reach a decision yet?
I'm in a similar spot. Not helped by the fact that today I noticed that the Transition Sentinel alloy is available frame only.
Hey @onzadog the Raaw didn’t happen in the end.
i couldn’t justify the cost of it once I factored in the import fees. Especially as it was a want and not a need.
so I consoled myself by buying a GX transmission for my Vitus 😂.
i also think the sensible thing with whatever I do get next is to find one and throw a leg over, as even tho the 470mm reach etc of my Sommet feels great I am curious about a shorter reach combined with a higher stack.