[Closed] Specifying components from non-mainstream manufacturers

When you go to the smaller companies, often you are dealing with the owner of the company, or the person that makes the thing, so they really care about making sure whatever you have is right. Some times that takes a little, or a lot, longer, but you do feel part of the process, or that you are making a difference to how the product turns out, and supporting smaller, often local businesses, rather than megacorps

Every once in a while it will bite you in the arse, which will be Sickening 😉, but touch wood wood, that hasn’t happened to me yet, that’s buying pretty much every component from off the beaten track companies (with the exception of gears iirc), at one time or another.

Then also you have something that isn’t run of the mill, everyday, and that feels pretty cool, or it does to me anyway.

Plus they are often conversation pieces, which is both a blessing and a curse, depending on the time/place/mood…

The dominant companies all make good stuff

Yes, but definitely not without exceptions...

so when would you deviate, and why?

When I have experienced an exception to your rule for sure, but also if I genuinely believe a product from a fringe manufacturer really does what it claims it will actually do... Have I been bitten on the arse? Of course I have... But there have been a few products from fringe manufacturers over the years that I have been genuinely glad I tried out over and above a mainstream alternative.

My new bike is coming with no shimano products at all.  Hope brakes and front hub, rohloff rear.  ritchey bars and seat pin, rockshox forks ( I decided not to go for something a bit more special)  MIddleburn cranks, HOpe BB

Reasons?  I prefer to buy local - its almost all UK / european made.  I prefer not to buy japanese for political reasons but obviously will not cut my nose of to spite my face on that

I like stuff that is infinitely rebuildable and will last for ever.  I do not mind paying a high price to do so.  this bike should only ever need consumables like brake pads.  No mechs to break, no expensive cassettes to replace, all spares available for the brakes and forks

I would never spec a derailleur expensive and wear out so quickly I will never use shimano brakes because of the lack of spares

High initial cost, low running cost

Scale must bring many advantages when it comes to product development/testing/production, and ubiquity brings some when it comes to parts/servicing availability and cost. But as with many (all?) industries, the best product/service certainly doesn’t always win a company dominance, and what’s “best” is influenced by personal preference. When resale time comes, potential buyers might not be familiar with, or have confidence in, non-mainstream components.

The dominant companies all make good stuff, so when would you deviate, and why?

The flip side to that is suspension, brakes etc have been well developed for decades. So it's relatively easy for someone (like Cane Creek for example) to turn up, licence a damper design (which is really nothing more than springs, washers and needle valves) and suddenly you've got the best damper in the world (ish, depending who you ask, at the time, etc).

Fox, rockshox etc on the other hand are churning out hundreds of thousands of dampers, they're R&D isn't going into building the best dampers (because unless something groundbreaking comes up, springs, shims, and washers already exist) it's going into building cheaper dampers tondo the same thing.

Take the charger, great idea the bladder, much cheaper and easier to make than an IFP (and in some ways better).

Brakes are the same. You could get a pair of Shimano or SRAM brakes, made to tolerances designed to allow for thousands to come out of the same production lines daily. Hope, and to a greater extent Trickstuff make tens or hundreds, and as a result can do things that Shimano can't (more machining, and more accurate machining).

Sometimes it's stuff I just like better.
Manitou forks for example, hardly niche but you don't see that many about, particularly the XC forks. IME they feel nicer and last longer than the Rockshox equivalents.
Does Tune count? Chosen because the hubs are very light. Downsides are the seals are a bit rubbish compared to Chris King and Hope.
TRP hydraulic road brakes. Never seen another set. Chosen because they were loads cheaper than anything from Shimano (because no shifter in the brake lever) Been really impressed with them.
Sometimes it backfires, Ritchie pedals Chosen because they were really light, destroyed after 25hrs, changed to XTR which just work.
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Some bits are mainstream in certain contexts but not others. Hardly see any Mt Zoom handlebars out on the trails for example but they are pretty much ubiquitous amongst the British 24hr racers, perfect for a particular purpose.

X-Fusion Forks - Good to average damping (compared to the latest) but very reliable. A few years back the dampers were very good for the money. Less so now as the competition has improved. The older rear shocks did not have as good a reputation for performance or reliability.

Manitou Forks - Very good damping with what used to be boutique features at the top end! Bushing slop was common and UK support is piss poor to nothing. Rear shocks surprisingly good but in the most basic mono shock form can need regular maintenance (air can resets no parts) to remain consistent.

Sunrace Cassettes - Pretty good. The shifters and mechs less so.

ZTTO - Mixed bag. Dropper levers pretty good but obviously not the best. The generic basic chain guide is sold under various brand names.

Brand X - The dropper is sold under that many different brand names I don't even know if Brand X Tranz X whatever...... is pretty decent for the money, has a little bit of rotational play, is not maintenance free but usually doesn't start playing up until about a year or two in!

I've heard the Hayes Dominion brakes are very good but haven't tried them myself!

As above the Chosen/Stans/Halo 120 point engagement hubs have shite sealing and you can't buy the seal ring that wears out separately, you have to buy the whole freehub WTAF ****s

I tend to buy mainstream, mostly because it "works well enough" I've a pair of 520 pedals that have lasted literally 15 years so far. Same with things like an XTR shifter that's been hanging around for more than a decade on various bikes, Having said that, I was expecting to have to change all the SRAM stuff on my 2019 Enduro, but the shifters mech brakes, are all pretty robust. I don't need particularly the best way of doing something, I want something that will work, is easy to service, and reliable.

The problem for me about more niche stuff is while it can be better in one aspect (lighter, more precise...whatever) it's often as the cost of other useful attributes (robustness, spares availability for example) or folks that know anything about them to service them, or the business itself going bust, and only rarely is their idea of "this - insert mass produced item here - can be better" actually bring anything wildly improved or effective, see any number of front suspension designs, or different ways of changing gear, often advertised as ground breaking but mostly just the same...but different for the sake of it.

I've never owned a set of modern Rock Shox or Fox forks 😁 last RS forks I owned were Judy SLs

Here's the last 20 years worth...

Pace RC41s - stiff, light, well damped, rode lovely, leaked like an incontinent granny.

White Bros Magic(?) 120 - looked Uber cool, quite stiff, agricultural damping, needed lowers dropping and seals regreasing after every wet ride.

Magura Thor T140 - great forks, stiff, light... smooth and working well be even though never serviced(!) still got them for spares. Need a 20mm axle/hub though.

Maverick Duc32s - very stiff. Over complicated to fit. Shonky damping & lockout. Needs a proprietary hub. Cool but odd!

Maverick SC32s - stiff (in certain directions) light. More reliable than the DUCs. Easy to adapt to different wheel sizes (will take fat and 29+). Still got them.

Manitou Magnum Pro - 29+ forks, buttery smooth action. Lockout is iffy. Wear on stanchions even with regular maintenance. Still own for my Krampus.

Marzocchi 350 CRs - amazingly stiff, lovely action and damping, very easy to work on and service. Still running on my full sus.

X-Fusion Sweep Roughcut HLR - great, bombproof forks. Will take a 3" 27.5+ tyre! Running It on my main hardtail.

*Edit* just remembered I did buy some secondhand RS U-turn pikes in about 2006/7.
Great forks, but weighed the same as a small moon. Still going on a friend's beater bike I think.

 I prefer not to buy japanese for political reasons

@tjagain - what have they done?

I think people often don't want to go for a lesser known brands even if reviews are good but the bigger thing is probably that the best discounts from CRC are for big brand items and never the more niche products.

I have Manitou forks, F<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">ormula brakes and have owned BOS suspension as well. They all work fantastically so I wouldn't hesitate to buy from either of them again. I'd love an Intend fork but they're a bit too pricey for me.</span>

What’s your take on suspension that isn’t RockShox/Fox, drivetrain or brakes that aren’t Shimano/SRAM, etc.?

Over Christmas I ended up looking at pics of all my old bikes and I spent a fair few years trying to run relatively 'non mainstream' parts and the results were usually disappointing. For years I was put off by the short service intervals of Fox
Magura Ronin were pretty ropey, a few Marzocchi Air forks none of which were great (though the 44RC3Ti were wonderful). The first gen RS Revelation was a revelation. As was a basic Fox Float after 2 years on DT Swiss rear shock.

Hope are good - mainly because it's all properly reapairable and rebuildable (and you can actually get the parts easily and at a reasonable price). But it used to be the case that spares, and even pads, were hard to come by when on holiday (whereas you could always pick up Shimano stuff)

I ran Rohloff (and then Pinion) for some years but 1X meant it was easier to keep a regular drivetrain running well off road with fewer parts to replace. the new shimano LinkGlide kit is interesting....

Having tried all sorts of pimpy cranks over the years I've concluded that nothing is better than Shimano hollow tech. Generally other options manage to be weaker, heavier AND more expensive.

To add, one thing I've noticed in this current parts drought is more non-mainstream stuff appearing on OEM bikes - MRP forks on some bikes, Hayes brakes on some Nukeproofs. Hopefully this gives a springboard to these smaller companies rather than just end up with a lot of dissatisfied customers and binned parts.

R&D isn’t going into building the best dampers (because unless something groundbreaking comes up, springs, shims, and washers already exist) it’s going into building cheaper dampers tondo the same thing.

Interesting point. I once met a washing powder scientist, much of their effort went on maintaining the current good performance while maintaining/reducing the production cost in the face of fluctuating ingredient prices.

Does Tune count?

Not heard of them before, but probably yes. In my mind, EXT and Trickstuff are boutique, Manitou and Hope are just non-mainstream.

Manitou Forks – Very good damping with what used to be boutique features at the top end! Bushing slop was common and UK support is piss poor to nothing. ...

I’ve heard the Hayes Dominion brakes are very good but haven’t tried them myself!

I'm interested in the brakes but not convinced on the support front. Asked the distributor about caliper adapters, needed to accommodate the unusual shape/size. They didn't stock them, suggested some workaround hacks using other brands adapters and washers. Ok it's a solution, but it doesn't fill me with confidence for when I might need something not quite so simple.

I don’t need particularly the best way of doing something, I want something that will work, is easy to service, and reliable.

I need to remind myself about the "best" thing sometimes; I can easily spend most of an evening deciding on which £7 bottle of chain lube to buy next. Reliability is also hugely important; no point having the best performance if you have to be fiddling with it weekly to keep it running, and its failures loses you riding days or a whole trip.

In my mind, EXT and Trickstuff are boutique,

Expensive, yes, but to my mind they are both pretty big outfits, Trickstuff are now part of DTSwiss and EXT have a pretty big motorsports division (even if they are small and new to the MTB market compared to established players). I imagine ‘boutique’ to be low single digit numbers of employees, and/or producing very low numbers of stuff. For suspension and brakes, I’d say Intend and Radic performance were boutique, being similar price or cheaper than the above, despite having only a few people in their employ.

Elshalimo

Its their predatory fishing policies including killing whales.  One key example is tuna fishing.  The long lines they use atttract albatrosses and kill and drown thousands a year.  they could easily stop this with simple modifications to the gear but they wont because they have such national pride tied up in it and will not be told what to do by anyone else.  So they continue to kill abatrosses and kill so many many female ones that its endangering them as a species.  completely avoidable

Also the killing of whales.  they claim its "traditional".  Actually it only dates back to WW2.  there is no real market for whale meat so its heavily subsidised, put into school food etc etc.  But they want to carry on killing whales because " no one tells them what to do"

Then the culture of "unrepairability" in their admittedly well designed products.  The fact you cannot buy spares for shimano brakes and stuff annoys me.

Fox, rockshox etc on the other hand are churning out hundreds of thousands of dampers, they’re R&D isn’t going into building the best dampers (because unless something groundbreaking comes up, springs, shims, and washers already exist) it’s going into building cheaper dampers

I recall Chris Porter making a comment suggesting that after he'd visited a large suspension company's factory, it became very apparent the main driver behind design changes were not performance, but assembly speed/cost.

I'd like to try some niche suspension but I simply can't justify the expense. Drivetrain I've never felt the need to look beyond Shimano/Sram.

I feel like I've tried every brake manufacturer under the sun but yet to find one I felt provided power, consistency and ease of maintenance. The search for a unicorn continues - maybe Trickstuff will become more accessible post takeover?

Non major components I try to support small and local brands, but I've been left disappointed with recent purchases so have swapped back to tried and tested parts from my spares box.

the non-spares issue sort of makes sense. I think Shimano seem to have a weird policy about it is all. Some spare parts are easily obtainable; pedal spares, axle spares, you can pretty much rebuild a mech, and trad calipers etc etc, it's only really when you get to hydro brakes, and only really the calipers that are not rebuildable.

dunno what that's got to do with whales though

Definitions of mainstream will vary,...

for niche, Tune Kill Hill brakes are probably niche.
What pads fit them ?

Boutique = french for shop?
or American for shop selling womens clothes?

 it became very apparent the main driver behind design changes were not performance, but assembly speed/cost.

Obvious thing is obvious. I'm not convinced that the performance of my choice of fork is the difference between me and Luca Shaw...And you often pay for that performance with shorter service intervals, and more expensive, harder to obtain spares and service and forks that aren't warranty supported in-country.

Could you call Suntour non mainstream? I know they're a big brand but mostly cheap OEM spec so very rare to see on high end bikes.

I have a pair that came on my 4x bike and when servicing them I found that virtually everything inside was aluminium, it looked like there was no obvious cost cutting and definitely looked better made than some higher end forks I've pulled apart

I'd happily have Cane Creek shocks rather than Fox or RS higher-end products.

I'd also happily have X-Fusion or Suntour rather than low-end RS forks.

On a mid-level enduro bike I'd be excited to see a Marz coil fork rather than a Lyrik Select or 36 Rhythym / Performance (I know Marz is really Fox now anyway).

tomhoward
Full Member

In my mind, EXT and Trickstuff are boutique,

Expensive, yes, but to my mind they are both pretty big outfits, Trickstuff are now part of DTSwiss and EXT have a pretty big motorsports division

Oh mate.

I think most MTBers would regard those brands as "boutique" in terms of them selling small volumes compared to the big OE players and both being widely recognised as the best in the biz. And the level of service when buying EXT from Mojo in particular is almost the definition of boutique.

But without the lacy undies, sadly.

I'm a fan of the made in the UK sort of stuff,not that I can justify buying everything that is not mass produced.
Current bike is a latest cotic RocketMax with x-fusion forks (cost based decision) but now running burgtec bars, dmr stem, unite pedals and have a load of hkt frame protection. UK companies plus actual made in UK stuff.
Next will be the move to hope equipment but not for a while, I'm very much enjoying how the SRAM stuff works and not sure I'll ever go back to Shimano.

I’d happily have Cane Creek

Along with CrankBrothers, Cane Creek is pretty much the only other brand that I have a "no moving parts" rule when it comes to their products.

I recall Chris Porter making a comment suggesting that after he’d visited a large suspension company’s factory, it became very apparent the main driver behind design changes were not performance, but assembly speed/cost.

The irony is when things take a step backward and the marketing goes to town selling it.

Motorbikes over the last 10 years "hey we've figured out that if we use the stanchion as the cartridge we get much more oil volume and more controlled damping".

Mountainbikes over the last 10 years "hey we've figured out that if we make the damper a separate cartridge ..........."

I'm surprised there aren't more niche damper manufacturers in shed turning out simpler dampers on their lathes and fitting them into other Chassis (I wonder how many chassis you'd have to be willing to buy before X-fusion would sell them to you empty at a viable price).

Cane Creek is pretty much the only other brand that I have a “no moving parts” rule

The DB and DB air were phenomenal and really reliable IME.

No reason to think the new Kitsuma stuff wouldn't be too. And I'm assured they have ironed out the terrible issues with the early Inline air shocks.

And the level of service when buying EXT from Mojo in particular is almost the definition of boutique.

From the UK distributor, one of many national distributors in the channel?

When dealing with Intend, you deal with Cornelius Kapfinger, the owner, designer, pretty well everything-er. Even on stuff of his you bought second hand and are trying to repair the handiwork of some hamfisted eejit, he’s very helpful.

Interesting.

I like different stuff. However my personal opinion is that a lot of the big companies have got a lot of the finer details right. The smaller companies can adapt to changes a lot better and try new things that are very difficult for the bigger companies. I do think in the last 5 years we've reached a point where most of the kit is very good.
So the next thing for me is reliability and if I break something I want to gey it fixed fairly quickly. Most shops will stock brand name parts and seals. Try getting a seal kit for your crane creak shock same day.

The best smaller companies are those that realise this and help you with home services etc.

 he’s very helpful.

at over £1800 and what? A 3 month wait for a set of forks, I'd expect him to be fitting them for me, and giving me insider trading tips frankly.

A good post.. I think you can take this idea about components, and spread it to frames..

For years I used to havemore niche frames... Chromag, Kingdom, Kinesis (still got), Travers (still got)...
My mates often did the dame.. Evil... Canfield etc..

I had one issue with a kinesis frame cracking, but my mate has had lots of issues with the carbon unbonding on his canfield epo...

A few years back a bunch of us in my riding group realised that actually, 'off the shelf' bikes (spec, trek etc etc) are actually Sooo good; they spend a tonne of money on R+D, are made of decent materials, and have parts/shops to back them up..

I think it was a bit of snobbery initially, but nowadays we're all riding the mainstream brands!

DrP

at over £1800 and what? A 3 month wait for a set of forks, I’d expect him to be fitting them for me, and giving me insider trading tips frankly.

About £1600, after conversion to GBP etc, about the same as an EXT ERA, and only a couple of hundred more than a fox 38. Pretty sure he’s shipping a lot of the forks from stock now too. I ordered some 2021 36s on the day they were released last year, took 4 or 5 months to get them.

From the UK distributor, one of many national distributors in the channel?

When dealing with Intend, you deal with Cornelius Kapfinger, the owner, designer, pretty well everything-er. Even on stuff of his you bought second hand and are trying to repair the handiwork of some hamfisted eejit, he’s very helpful.

I think you need to invent a new "super-boutique" category, or risk coming off a bit Marie Antoinette.

EXT and Trickstuff are definitely boutique to 99.5% of riders.

BITD it just meant lesser-known makers of anodised trick stuff (see what I did there?) and smaller imported brands, didn't it?

Tom, I feel you’re in the rarified position whereby your definition of boutique differs from most given your ability to afford / willingness to buy certain items.  Sort of like stating an item of Gucci clothing is not designer as you can buy it from a shop vs a bespoke piece direct from the designer.

Edit: beaten to it by Cha****ng

That’s kinda my point, they aren’t particularly small brands/companies. I’m not denying they’re expensive, but they are waaay bigger than a lot of folk think.

Yeah, I think Tom’s version of niche vs what the rest of us plebs think is niche is a bit different…😃

hahing said that Intend are pretty much the epitome of “doing things differently and more expensively, but exactly the same”

I think Shimano seem to have a weird policy about it is all. Some spare parts are easily obtainable;

When I've looked at Shimano tech documents they list pretty much every single part on every product. I think the issue is that there are so many, and they change so often (as Shimano update products every couple of years) that the European distributors choose not to import most of the spares.

b33k34
Parts for brakes?  Seals, lever arms?

the only bits you can get for an alfine is a complete cluster and a main bearing.  No smaller parts

cups and cones for hubs?  Parts for freehubs?

Internal parts for shifters?

I think that the shimano part numbers are essentially an internal reference number. The vast majority aren’t even produced for spares, never mind sold as such

Internal parts for shifters?

I don’t think I’ve ever broken a shifter internally, how would you do that?

Paul's Components....non-mainstream or boutique?
CNCed parts made in the US, but they are distributed worldwide, and relatively easy to purchase.

The Klamper brakes and Love Levers are ace too 😎 stop me just as good as the hydros on other bikes....but at a slight price premium!

manitou and Cane creek suspension when I can. RS and fox are junk

I'd use other components if they were proced more competitively. Don't use shimano cassettes or brake pads.

I really like Cane Creek Helm forks- I've got an air one and a coil. Easy to work on, nice supple ride. The bigger-name competitors can produce forks more cheaply, though, so they'll never be the most wallet-friendly option.

I don’t think I’ve ever broken a shifter internally, how would you do that?

Things wear and break.  I had a tiny part break in a set of shimano shifters.  I could dissemble it and find the broken part but of course no spares so the shifter was scrap

Part of this is of course I do not have upgraditis and still use parts that are 20+ years old.  reduce reuse recyle repair

RS and fox are junk

I can never tell if you're trolling or just a pathologically contrary Mary.

I agree with most of TJs pot except this

I would never spec a derailleur expensive and wear out so quickly

I think they are cheap, effective and actually pretty durable. I've only had to replace one since the mid 90s, and that was because a third party jockey wheel wore out so much that the chain jammed and ripped it off. My daughter's bike has M970 from 2007 on it that did many thousands of off road miles and it is still like new.

Also, re repairability, they aren't too bad IMO. The clutches on mechs are repairable, pedal bearings, they use C&C hubs which are very cheap and easy to repair. People accuse them of built in obselescence because of stuff like chainring bolt circles, but chainrings are widely available in all sorts of BCDs. If they really wanted to built in obselescence they'd have changed the hyperglide cassette splines every time a new speed came out but they kept the same spacing and pattern for decades until forced to change it to fit 10t sprockets. So they aren't too bad in my book. Not perfect of course as they ought to make caliper seals available when there's clearly a problem with them.