I can deal with the looks from other parents proudly letting junior hop on and off the kerb ....... on their piece of shit bike
and you complain about people judging you.
you keep missing out the winks
I like to keep you guessing ( 😉 ?)
Anecdotes you want? Well... racing is dangerous. You must wear a helmet and I've written off two nice Giro helmets whilst racing, both with a loss of consciousness.
But the most recent incident was much more serious. My new Giro Synth. Signing on at the Welsh Nationals, I banged my head on the spar of a very low hanging gazebo! Luckily my helmet took the brunt (enough to dent it 🙁 ). Always wear a helmet when signing on.
As for broken helmets - they've really done their job when they show crush damage, not cracks. As mine did when i planted it onto the B pillar of a Mercedes at 20 mph.
I've only read the OP, but I think he is wrong.
I respect his right to be wrong though, even if I am saddened by his decision not to mitigate against unnecessary risk for his kid based on his poor risk model using flawed assumptions and apperent lack of objectivity.
[quote=TiRed ]Anecdotes you want? Well... racing is dangerous.
Hence all the safety gear people wear for racing
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- on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.
Nope. I think that is a fib. Mrs INVG is a brain surgeon & says that she sees very few cyclist head injuries. By & large it is other parts of the body that get taken out. Those that are tend to be off road incidents.
She still prefers me to wear a helmet.
I've commented on these in the playground...
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The 'punk spine' is hard rubber - really not convinced they are a good idea.
I can deal with the looks from other parents proudly letting junior hop on and off the kerb ....... on their piece of shit bike
and you complain about people judging you.
I feel entirely comfortable judging people who send their kids out with brakes that don't work and with tyres that are down to the canvas. They don't have to worry about any of that nonsense because they've got helmets!
Somehow I doubt these parents took the time to read peer reviewed studies on riding without brakes before deciding that brakes might not be the magical talismans of safety everyone thinks they are.
dirksdiggler
the argument against helmets is moot with a well fitting model.
The argument against poorly fitting helmets is equally valid.
I wouldn't say moot - but at least a properly fitting helmet might actually do something - the weight and size still count against them.
To the Op - you are thinking about it and making rational risk assessments - some might not agree with you but its a reasonably rational decision based on evidence.
Anyone with kids who questions you? I suggest you show them the multiple ways their totheir precious bairns helmets don't fit and increase risk- educate them don't argue.
Personally ( I don't have kids) if it were me I'd be looking very hard for helmets in other sports as well as cycling? Someone must make something surely? Most kids helmets are woeful
imnotverygood - Member- on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.
Nope. I think that is a fib. Mrs INVG is a brain surgeon & says that she sees very few cyclist head injuries. By & large it is other parts of the body that get taken out. Those that are tend to be off road incidents.
Mrs INVG is right. You do see life changing cycle head injuries ( I have seen a few) - but they are rare. Drinking injuries are far more common. I have seen one chap for whom I believe his helmet caused his injury. No way to know but it has all the attributes
Tricky situation for the OP. I feel a hypocrit as I don't wear a helmet, but my grandson does when we go for a ride together. I guess I think he's more likely to fall off than I am. Ignore the critics, or just tell them ti piss off.
Wear the helmet, or not, but a smack on the head is nicer when there's an inch of polystyrene between you and the floor. Rotational forces, strangling and whatnot are all a load of bollocks when the ground is rushing towards you.
Toys r us and babies r us do a range of tiny helmets that fit properly.
well contrary to what many people think you don't need to write a risk assessment down, so it will be a bit tricky, you'd need to get inside my head which is obviously a dangerous place!molgrips - So can I see your risk assessment poly?
However it goes roughly like this:
- if I am actually mountain biking I do occasionally crash/fall off so risk hitting me head. Still even in quite a lot of crashes I've only damaged one helmet (and I doubt it saved my life but did avoid some pain). I don't jump - Im a mincer. I wear a helmet for this sort of riding.
- if I am riding the road bike, I've never had a crash, but the tire to road area ratio isn't high and speeds are higher so there is some risk of wiping out, and the impact being more dramatic. There is also a risk of vehicle collision but a helmet isn't going to make a big difference in a lot of those cases. I still wear a helmet for this sort of riding.
- if I am pootling to the shops or station, I may not bother with the helmet. I've never crashed on those short trips. I ride grippy tires on routes I know, at moderate speeds. I do believe when interacting with traffic they give me more room w/out the helmet. If I have to carry a helmet at the other end, or even the extra step of getting it out the cupboard I might not bother - I'll jump in the car, long term that is not going to be as good for my health.
- in some incidents a helmet will definitely make a difference to the outcome.
- in some incidents a helmet will make absolutely no difference to the outcome.
- helmets are only tested to a relatively low speed/energy collision.
- the fact I know I will take more risks with a helmet ON make me more likely to get other injuries.
Talking to the Mrs about this - on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.
The numbers are almost certainly wrong. A friend works in A&E and claimed it was 50% - but there was definitely confirmation bias involved in that (he ignored the drunks and assaults)! He also reckoned 75% WERE wearing helmets and still got hurt. Many more cyclists appear with cuts/grazes, shoulder injuries and long bone fractures than head injuries. We don't advocate armour for the road though do we?
I'm not sure what you define as an "anti-helmeter". If you are including people who sometimes don't wear helmets rather than those who never wear them - then I think you are applying your own bias to rationalise an "I never get on a bike without some polystyrene" decision. If you go to Scandinavia you will see something like 1:1000 helmets for exactly that sort of pootling. I don't think they have disproportionately higher head injury rates do they?I strongly suspect all the anti-helmeters are retrospectively rationalising their dislike of helmet wearing.
Glad I had my full face on during the Naughty Northumbrian the other day 🙂
Understand what you are saying with a cheap Lidl/Halfords helmet that are thick / offer no back / side protection etc.
Can you not mitigate all your worries, while gaining all the benefits of wearing a helmet, just by buying a decent one that fits well, with a good strap system e.g. Bell Sidetrack or similar?
silly silly - cradle systems for helmet fixation reduce their effectiveness greatly - there needs to be no gap between the polystyrene ad the skull for them to work properly ( TRL research) and all helmets increase the weight and size of the head
Thread going in a very predictable direction...
Rotational forces, strangling and whatnot are all a load of bollocks
It's great to finally have a definitive answer to these questions. I hope everyone will take note and not waste any more time on so-called "research" and stuff.
I agree with you. I wouldn't force religion on my kids either.
Talking to the Mrs about this - on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.
Member of my family is a psychologist, has a close friend who works with brain-damaged people in recovery. They say a disproportionate number of patients are male and under 40, motorbikes, cars and street fights are the most common causes. Bikes weren't mentioned, don't doubt there's a few in there though - must be via RTAs etc.
90% sounds like BS. Both examples are just annecdotal evidence though.
(uh oh.. my 1st post on a helmet thread!)
Member of my family is a psychologist, has a close friend who works with brain-damaged people in recovery. They say a disproportionate number of patients are male and under 40, motorbikes, cars and street fights are the most common causes. Bikes weren't mentioned, don't doubt there's a few in there though - must be via RTAs etc.90% sounds like BS. Both examples are just annecdotal evidence though.
I'd say thats the difference between general admissions to a+e and serious head injuries. I'd suggest the 90% stat is everything from a minor bump to concussion whereas the person working in recovery is only seeing the most serious few percent.
We have a no helmet no ride rule in his household, I had a pedestrian incident while commuting helmetless a few years back and I'll not even year a bike up and down the street now, much in the same way I'll not get in a car without a seat belt. It's a precaution that might never been needed and might not work in every situation but I'd rather have it than not.
^ he did say 'many with life-altering consequences' though, suggesting many are needing care and rehab afterwards so the range includes the most serious head injuries.
Even if not actually that many at that severity, 90% of head injuries seen are related to / caused by bikes? I don't have numbers to suggest I know better but if that were generally true we'd know about it.
Really not sure what the fuss is, kids put helmets on and ride bikes - why the need to turn it into some sort of crusade
Here are some facts on cycling injuries for 2015. Sadly wording is poor. I assume it means % of cyclists admitted to A&E. Not 80% of all cyclists in rural areas have a head injury
"Head injuries, ranging from fatal skull fractures and brain damage to minor concussion and cuts, are very
common injuries to cyclists. Hospital data shows that over 40% of cyclists, and 45% of child cyclists, suffer head
injuries. A study of 116 fatal cyclist accidents in London and rural areas found over 70% of the cyclist fatalities
in London had moderate or serious head injuries in London, and over 80% of those killed in collisions on rural
roads."
Source
Careful ampthill.
Bringing in empirical evidence could get you flamed! Ha! Ha!
Having been lucky enough to spend some time with Swedish safety experts, POC, and having been able to question them in detail about the research that underpins their products and the multi plane testing they do such as for their new SPIN pads, I came away convinced by both their safety first ethos and more importantly, the evidence based approach they adopt working with some of Sweden's leading neuroscientists. Unlike Trump the chump, I would rather put my faith in the science than gut feel, instinct and preconceived notions of what feels right.
Wear a helmet. Don't wear a helmet. That is user choice but don't expect everyone to support your decision or agree you are right.
Tjagain - Interesting point - here is a link to some of the research re rotational force if anyone is interested: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html
Looks like Kali helmets are offering something in line with this to mimic the scalp: https://bike.kaliprotectives.com/technology#ldl-low-density-layer
[quote=sssimon ]I'd suggest the 90% stat is everything from a minor bump to concussion whereas the person working in recovery is only seeing the most serious few percent.
No - as jameso points out (I was politer before) 90% is just BS. There's no way 90% of any type of head injury can be cyclists. Not given that the majority of people killed due to head injuries in road accidents aren't cyclists.
[quote=ampthill ]Here are some facts on cycling injuries for 2015. Sadly wording is poor.
Also no break down on what proportion of that 40% is minor concussion and cuts - I suspect the data isn't available. I note that a similar % suffer arm injuries. Their definition of head injury includes things that I do to myself numerous times when not cycling and to a level which certainly doesn't require a trip to hospital.
Poor fit & loose chin straps are a serious issue. I fractured my larynx due to a loose chin strap. Had to have a tracheotomy which ain't nice. I particularly remember getting the suction pipe regularly to take any fluid out of my lungs. Take deep breath, nurse sticks the pipe in and I feel like I'm suffocating not pleasant.
Anyway my take on it is fit is mega important, nice secure chin strap and check it won't rotate backwards too easily. It's not an excuse not to wear a lid though I'd rather be partially strangled and fracture my larynx than have a fractured skull.
It's not a choice between no helmet vs. a badly fitted helmet. We can make the decision to find a well functioning and well fitting helmet that minimises the downside whilst providing some protection.
My son (5) has had a few tumbles on quite mundane bike paths where, for example, his front wheel slipped out on some loose gravel. He slightly cracked his helmet in the fall but was otherwise ok. Would have been a nasty bump to the head if he'd not been wearing one.
Where I couldn't agree more is that blind faith in helmets is dumb - a sense of false confidence from just putting on a helmet, ignoring that it's inappropriate, too large or with loose straps is probably far more dangerous than a conscious decision to not wear one in certain scenarios. Unfortunately it's far too common to see children with helmets that will probably do more harm than good in an accident.
The best summary of the evidence I have seen
http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref
Follow on discussion on the BMJ site is well worth reading as well
thecaptain - Member
It's great to finally have a definitive answer to these questions. I hope everyone will take note and not waste any more time on so-called "research" and stuff.
Your selective quoting marks you as an empirical throbber.
Go away and throw yourself at the floor several times, maybe add a car to the mix. Then return and feedback on how many times your head rotated and how many times it just slammed into the floor really ****ing hard. You can do it with a helmet or not, but I know which I'd choose.
Can't be arsed to read the whole thread.
Ultimately it is personal choice with what you want to do for your kids.
Our choice is that our son wears his on his balance bike and has done for about 6 months or so.
Not necessarily because he needs it right now, more that it is now a habit and will continue when he gets a proper bike (he is only just over 2).
It's funny now as he goes to collect his bike and brings his hat too, it's a properly fitting kids helmet too
Can't be arsed to read the whole thread.
Ultimately it is personal choice with what you want to do for your kids.
Our choice is that our son wears his on his balance bike and has done for about 6 months or so.
Not necessarily because he needs it right now, more that it is now a habit and will continue when he gets a proper bike (he is only just over 2).
It's funny now as he goes to collect his bike and brings his hat too, it's a properly fitting kids helmet too
i agree....all 3 of my kids wear one otherwise they don't ride their bikes.
youngest is 3...he likes it especially when he see his older siblings wearing theirs. my 5 year old daughter doesn't like wearing hers but that's because she ties her hair up high so the helmet doesn't go on properly so she has to re-tie her hair so the helmet fits. eldest is 10 and has been using a helmet since he was 3...its second nature to him now to wear a helmet.
i agree that its difficult sometimes to find a helmet that fits properly but once you find one its worth it.
oldest son has a bell stoker and is now the proud owner of a giro cipher. daughter has a met lid and youngest has a bell lid.
The best summary of the evidence I have seen
You mean the article that most closely agrees with the point of view you like 🙂
All it says is that it's complicated to assess the effects of helmet wearing and legislation.
I'm still thinking in more detail though - about the interaction between tarmac and head. I'd certainly rather there was something soft in between the two.
[quote=giantalkali ]Your selective quoting marks you as an empirical throbber.
Exactly what pertinent points did he miss?
It's always good to have a "throw yourself at the floor, see if a helmet helps" post though.
Are there any records of the number of permanent brain injuries kids received whilst cycling before helmets became the norm? From my experience they don't seem to do much more than protect from superficial and temporary brain injuries. Much more likely to tell my grandkids* to wear gloves than helmets.
* I don't have any yet but have raised three boys to adulthood without too many hospital visits
aracer - MemberIt's always good to have a "throw yourself at the floor, see if a helmet helps" post though.
If you were to land on the floor, would you prefer to have some form of protection? Even if it may strangle you on the internet, though not in real life.
If you were to risk being stabbed would you fancy a stab resistant vest, despite it being hot and sweaty?
If you were to be savaged by a beaver or somesuch, would you like beaver proof galoshers, despite someone on the internet telling you they may burst into flames?
How about if, whilst wrestling a rabid haddock, someone was to pass you a sharpened golf club. Handy, I'm sure you'll agree...
Unlikely as these scenarios may sound, you just never know, and it pays to be prepared.
strangulation risk? Well freak accidents can always happen and if someone has actually ever been strangled by a cycle helmet chin strap then it is most likely becasuse it was a poor fit or some other outside influencing factor rather than a fundamental issue with the helmet design. A work colleague of mine was killed in a motorbike accident and his head was torn from his shoulders by his helmet chin strap but you'd be an utter idiot and imbecile of the highest order to suggest motorbike helmets should be banned as why're more dangerous than not wearing them.
Crashes are complicated. Many things can happen during a crash. They are impossible to model accurately, which is why we still have real life crash tests, and you get a different outcome with every test no matter how hard you try to set it up exactly the same. You have to consider ON BALANCE what is the safest option, to wear a helmet or not to wear one. I wouldn't know where to dig them up but I'd be will to bet the actual evidence would suggest wearing a helmet is your best bet.
From my experience they don't seem to do much more than protect from superficial and temporary brain injuries.
What experience is that?
Are there any records of the number of permanent brain injuries kids received whilst cycling before helmets became the norm?
Dunno. But it wasn't all roses back then. I know someone whose best mate was killed by a car whilst riding over to his house. Head injury might've been a part of it, I dunno. But shit did happen 'back in the old days' you just didn't care about it as much.
But shit did happen 'back in the old days' you just didn't care about it as much.
its not just that though is it? there was no internet, social media or satellite/cable tv back then...so if it wasnt on one of the 4 channels, local radio or newspaper...you never heard about it and it never happened or existed.
also i think there is a big difference in the bikes that get ridden now and those that were ridden then.
when i was 10 i had a very nice bmx but the brakes weren't all that due to the mag wheels and i thought that simply popping off a tall kerb was a cool stunt...my 10 year old has hardtail with a 170mm travel fork, zee stoppers and 10sp gearing...the bike gives him the confidence to ride harder and faster than i would ever dream of when i was his age on my bmx...i never wore a helmet but i survived but my son has a bike that can help push his riding skills even further so he should wear a helmet.
What experience is that?
Without going into boring detail 45 years plus of cycling and 30 odd years of motorcycling, first hand knowledge of a few accidents some resulting in fatalities some in short term knock outs, some motorcycling, some cycling, some with some without helmet protection. Personally I think helmet wearing on the balance is probably a good idea, but just don't think the risks of not wearing them are all that great and don't believe that the benefit of wearing them are all that great either vis a vis the "helmet saved my life" anecdotes. Definitely think that enforced wearing of helmets either by disapproval of others or otherwise is a bad thing & as for risk compensation.... I once rode The Gap sans helmet & the decent was definitely not as much fun that time 😉
So, are you saying that if someone had a helmet on and still sustained an injury then the helmet didn't help?
So, are you saying that if someone had a helmet on and still sustained an injury then the helmet didn't help?
No, I am saying I don't know but I am not hugely convinced that bike helmets actually prevent permanent brain injury - I've been knocked out after being knocked off by a car. I dare say I might not have been had I been wearing a helmet but I am saying that had I been wearing a helmet it would have been damaged but it wouldn't have "saved my life"
Dickyboy - Member
No, I am saying I don't know but I am not hugely convinced that bike helmets actually prevent permanent brain injury - I've been knocked out after being knocked off by a car. I dare say I might not have been had I been wearing a helmet but I am saying that had I been wearing a helmet it would have been damaged but it wouldn't have "saved my life"
It can't have saved your life if you didn't die in the non-helmet scenario. If you'd have died then a helmet could have potentially saved your life. Evidently it could have saved you some long term brain injury.
Okay on another tack - what are the head injury sats for the tour de France pre and post helmet compulsion - from an accident/injury perspective all other variables must be fairly consistent* and therefore comparable non?
* I suppose one that isn't is quality of medical care over time , bugger was hoping for a reasonable comparison
It can't have saved your life if you didn't die in the non-helmet scenario. If you'd have died then a helmet could have potentially saved your life. Evidently it could have saved you some long term brain injury.
My skill at conveying a message have clearly been affected by the brain injury I received back in 1979
