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Been pratting around at Hilingdin today, so far I've reduced my spacers by 15mm so it was a perfect opportunity to test how comfortable it felt. Felt okay for the couple of hours I was out today, so I may chop off some more steerer shortly as there's 20mm above the stem which seems a bit silly.
Today's strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/870760547
My PR for a lap around Hillingdon is 2:08 during a race. I did it in 2:14 solo today, which I'm happy with as its windy!
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Also set a benchmark for you guys to try on Tuesday: https://www.strava.com/segments/12163312?filter=overall
Well done mate. Nice day for it.
I refer you to my training book "These workouts are best done alone to avoid 'competing' " 😀
It's going to take a lot of willpower I expect 😉
I might even bring the cross bike just to avoid temptation (although it did wearing the GP4000's of course 😉 ) 😀
If we're not battling, I'm staying at home 😆
No disc braked bikes, they're dangerous 😈
When I turn up on Tuesday just bear in mind I'd have already cycled 20 miles to get there, so go easy on me 😆
Lol! Who says I need full gas to keep you at bay Weeksy 😀
I promise I won't slice your head off Nath 😉
Seriously though- I'd like to do some bunch work if there's a few of us but otherwise I want to do max cadence spin-ups, form sprints at Z5 tops, cornering practice and a few clockwise laps to get a feel for it.
I have no intention of racing, sprinting full gas or doing a flying lap anywhere over Threshold.......
....no intention at all 😀
I'd like to practice through and offs, I was shocking at it last weekend. Everything else I'm easy with.
So I've cocked up the spacers... I've just realised I've put a 20mm bottom and 15mm top. I was aiming for 15mm under and over. Oh well 🙂
.or doing a flying lap anywhere over Threshold.......
Now that Nath has some solo data, I certainly plan on trying a lap if not 2 at what I'd consider high pace, or at least pushing myself hard.
I think my standard average power in the bunch (not sitting in the wind) is around 200w until the pace picks up in the final laps.
Therefore today solo it would have been a 2:45? Lap time.
Difficulty from that is that the wind plays such a large factor at Hillingdon, as you will find out 😆
Can I just say bike fitting is a bloody minefield. Worked out my racing bike now has a drop of 8.5cm, perfect! Measured the commuter in the same way. 10cm!! That translates to me just using a 5mm spacer instead of the current 20mm. FFS, down it goes again, this time to a 15mm spacer.
Weeksy- Go for it- would be a waste not to 🙂
If I'm going to bother following my periodised Friel plan at all- then I need to be disciplined. It's so tempting to revert to an ad-hoc program of racing, Zwift racing and whatever I feel like that day but I do genuinely believe that when I followed it for XC racing in 2014, it gave me the peak of my life.
So honestly- don't hold back on my account 🙂
Nath- sorry, my agricultural approach to life isn't much use for eking out marginal bike-fitting gains 😀
At a quick guess- my fastest solo lap so far is 21mph / 2.39
But that was in a pretty fatigued state mid race- not fresh.
I suspect my flat out laps will be your practice speed anyway 🙂 But i'll have a pop at it.
Regarding bike fitting, sheesh, my saddle can go down during a ride sometimes, let alone even starting in the same position... it's one of them things that doesn't seem to worry me massively. Although for today i was planning on tilting the bars slightly upwards to give me a better position when on the tops.
It's not really about the gains, it just seems silly that my commuter is more aero than my racing bike!
The thing that's thrown me is the fact that the head tube is much longer on it than the commuter.
Anyway down to 15mm now, if I find it comfortable on Tuesday night then I'll hack another 5mm off the steerer to enable me to use a 15mm spacer above (12mm steerer showing) for some scope for adjustment if I have a longer race planned for it. I am tempted to buy another fork and slamming it purely for crits lol.
Enjoy your ride out gentlemen!
Nutter 😀
Will do! Got the VIRB fitted 😉
Weeksy did well! His power on the flat is very strong! Had me worried a few times 🙂
I'd like to practice through and offs
You know where to come. 😉
A good target for solo laps of Hillingdon is 2:10-2:15. That would be solo breakaway pace off the front. If you can hold that for a few laps you are doing well.
On my TT bike in the Westerly 10-and-a-bits, I aim for 2:00 (or less) but that is hard. My fastest time in a race is 1:55 in the bunch, and that was hammering it as I held on by my fingernails.
Nathb for set up. Start with Saddle height above BB and setback from nose to BB. Then measure saddle to top of bar drop, and finally distance from saddle nose to stem bar clamp. Those four measures are easy to capture and replicate. Stack and Reach can be derived from them, but are less helpful.
P.s.
Racing 56cm:
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Commuter 55cm:
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Do you feel more aero on the commuter mate?
Or rather, which aspects of the Race bike geo's are stopping you from adopting the position you want during a race?
Two things really:
1) want to match the drop or go slightly lower on the racing bike - since it seems silly to be in a more upright position on it than the commuter when I know I find it comfortable?
2) I'm still getting a slight pain in my knees - so I think I need to adjust my saddle a bit more. Problem is I can't use the commuter for this as that was at the wrong height too!
yellow line should be vertical. UCI limit is at least 5cm from nose to centre of BB (unless you are small - you aren't). That measurement assumes same saddle and corrects for different seat tube angles. It also includes TT bikes, which is why short saddles were made.
Tuesday is club night, but I have something urgent this week, so may not be around much.
But I guess my point is that position isn't entirely down to the bike. Are you finding yourself wishing you were lower during races?
I know I definitely need to adjust mine gradually downwards as it started life very upright..... and I get power wheelies 😀
But have you flagged yours as being a limiter?
Could it be that the commuter is too low- especially now you know your saddle was 'wrong'?
I just think that you are getting great results with what you have- radical changes to hit an arbitrary number may not necessarily enhance your race performance.
Not saying "don't"- just pondering "why" 🙂
@TiRed - re done:
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My saddle nose is nowhere near the centre of the BB (towards the stem side anyway).
@CH - the reason for this all is trying to get more aero (free watts) + solve my knee pain. I had to start amending my saddle position as it wasn't flat (amended before being awarded points).
Thanks Nath. I hadn't realised you still had work to do with the knee pain.
Perhaps MrBlobby or TiRed can help me then with the whole aero thing. Surely a position you can readily maintain and that doesn't inhibit your power is more important than an ultra aero hoods position?
Given that you have to negotiate corners whilst covering the brakes, and have enough visibility to monitor the race ahead- as well as chillax as much as possible in the draft- what is the holy grail of Crit positions?
Is it one that gets you a good balance between aero, comfort and control whilst on the hoods and then use the drops for attacking in the wind?
Or is aero at all costs worth pursuing?
I'm just curious for my own set up when we get around to the Spring series.....
It won't be. 5cm behind the bib is the minimum. Positions look pretty similar. Quite an aggressive drop, and if you want more aero, longer works as well as lower. To be honest, having a good position on the drops that you can spend longer on, is more aero than an aggressive position you can't maintain. My drop is only 8cm, and the distance nose to stem modest 56cm. But I ride on the drops a lot. You're a bit taller than me, but knee pain is not uncommon if the saddle is too high and too far back, causing over extension of the tendons of your itb
@CH - yeah 🙁 It could be quite possibly that my body is adjusting to the new seating position? From the above I'm going to move my saddle back 5mm.
I'm only pursuing this as I'm using the commuter as a benchmark. 😆
@tired - yeah 9.5cm, I'm just matching my friends S5 to trial it 😆 But I'm used to 9cm and have left enough steerer to adjust upwards. I'm going to use the drops a lot more at the race next weekend, I've been practising cornering in it and feel more confident now.
I'm using 110mm stems on both bikes, so from nose to handlebar tops it's about the same as yours.
My knee pain initially started as I levelled the saddle. I've only recently increased the height.
My bike fitting friends theory is that I've become over reliant on my quads, for both power and to keep me in position (note saddle was originally pointing down). Therefore levelling the saddle has engaged other muscles which were under used (ie have missed out on months of training). I only get the pain at the front of my knees when really putting the power down, I can quite happily bumble along pain free all day otherwise.
Also using this tool: http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Cervelo/R5-Ultegra-Road-Bike-2017/8G92
Recommended:
Frame Size - 56
Saddle Height (cm) - 77.70
Cervelo R5:
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Mine:
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[img] http://file.siam2web.com/thaicycling/webboard/20091012_57976.gi f" target="_blank">http://file.siam2web.com/thaicycling/webboard/20091012_57976.gi f"/> [/img]
Nath- Shall I bring a spanner tomorrow so you can sample a real piece of machinery 😀
I've indexed the gears on the Carbon thing.... well all apart from the 9th cog... which i can't get... .1-8 fine, 10 fine... 9... Nopes...
My legs are tired today though that's for sure... You worked me hard yesterday (apart from when i had a plod along with neighbour).
I'd like to say I'm bouncing off the walls, feeling fresh but my legs ache a little too 😀
Surely a position you can readily maintain and that doesn't inhibit your power is more important than an ultra aero hoods position?
It's always a bit of a compromise. If you're only racing an hour then you don't have to worry about having a position you can sustain all day. Power/aero is also a trade off, on the TT bike for example I'm down a good 20 to 30 watts on power due to position but more than make up for it in aero gains. Crits are different though as you need to be able to put in the short hard efforts which can be hard with a very aero position.
I reckon position is something that needs to be played with and evolves over time with testing and trial and error. Ideally it's application specific but there's a trade off with practicality there.
@CH - A spanner?! You bringing your B'Twin yeah?
@Mrblobby - this is what I'm trying to achieve - using my commuter which has 1,000+ miles more on it as a guide, I want to match this (for long races) and go slightly further aero for crits. I think I'm there with a 9cm drop on the commuter and 9.5cm on the crit machine (this is measured from the top of the saddle for consistency between them).
Anyway it's all dialed in now ready for tomorrow nights testing 🙂
Anyway it's all dialed in now ready for tomorrow nights testing
I'd pop along for this if it was another night but Mrs B has classes on a Tuesday.
Whatever changes you make to bar position, definitely test your sprint in the drops as (the almost inevitable) sprint finish is probably the most critical part of the race.
Well I've signed up for Abingdon on the 4th. Who else is coming out to play?
I'm not booked yet but hoping to be there on the 4th. There on the 25th 🙂
Well, i've just emailed the organiser and was tentatively debating a space on the 4th... however, i'm apparently booked for a family thing that day...
25th is certainly possible though i think. My lad has a flute concert, but i don't believe i'm due to attend.
@CH not worth booking in before it's too late?
I think you get all but £1 back.
I'd quite like 6th again on Saturday, that'd be the dream!
Come on CH, get it booked!
Ok- I'm in. So you and Nath? Sounds like a lovely relaxed affair 😀
Sounds like Nath may well be in the 3's by then!
I'm just coming along for a bit of fun 🙂
I'm just coming along to be your super domestique 🙂
How kind!!! 😀
I'm sure we could come up with a plan CH 🙂
Sounds expensive 😀 Can I still pay you with game out of the freezer? 😉