[Closed] Short travel hardtails.......

I'm not sure I see the point of suspension at all tbh. It just isolates you from the impacts.

I'm not sure I see the point of suspension at all tbh. It just isolates you from the impacts.

😀 these day I'm not sure if I see the point in off road bikes at all. I prefer going by foot.

I'm not sure I see the point of suspension at all tbh. It just isolates you from the impacts.

Exactly. That's why I started riding without tyres and grips.

I can smell a new thing hitting the industry very soon! ANTI-SUSPENSION!

It works in a way that when you hit a bump, the fork - instead of "sucking in" the stanchions - "explodes" them out 😆

I'm not sure I see the point of suspension at all tbh. [b]It just isolates you from the impacts.[/b]

I think that's kinda the point!

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Inverted travel-length snobbery?

To be fair you have been banging on about this for years and when I first wound down the forks on my BFe down from 140 to 95 I did think to myself 'hmm maybe he has a point'. I still dont want to ride everywhere on a 100mm hardtail.

whoever dropped that kid out of a helicopter* wants putting in jail.

*in the OP

It was a "bored at work" thread - hasn't really gone the way I'd hoped....

I_Ache - Member
To be fair you have been banging on about this for years and when I first wound down the forks on my BFe down from 140 to 95 I did think to myself 'hmm maybe he has a point'. I still dont want to ride everywhere on a 100mm hardtail.

I thought the sweet spot was about 110mm on the Cotic. I think the BB got too low with less maybe; seemed to be harder to do fun stunts on anyway. I'm surprised no one else ripped off the Charge Blender (or maybe they have and I've not seen it). That looked like a good bike, but a bit small for pedalling if you're tall.

I thought the sweet spot was about 110mm on the Cotic. I think the BB got too low with less maybe; seemed to be harder to do fun stunts on anyway. I'm surprised no one else ripped off the Charge Blender (or maybe they have and I've not seen it). That looked like a good bike, but a bit small for pedalling if you're tall.

I preferred mine with 130mm forks on it. Wasn't so keen on it with less, but I like long travel hardtails.

The Slackline was supposedly inspired by the Blender...

The sweet spot on my BFe is 150mm - just perfect.

Long travel hardtails are fundamentally retarded, its just a poor mix. Hardly anyone rides them on the Continent or the USA for a reason.

For me its either a short travel hardtail or full sus.

Geometry of a long travel HT but with short travel forks.

I believe this was the original design brief for the OO Summer Season but then people put longer forks on it.

There was also a kid on here that was doing custom frames in a similar style, he got slated for it but then he was a total nob too so he deserved it.

The sweet spot on my BFe is 150mm - just perfect.

I had 150mm on my BFe for a downhilling holiday in Morzine. Didn't like it at all; fair enough, the forks weren't great. But it just felt really unbalanced, don't think the short stays helped. Plus, with long forks, you end up with a bike that weighs more than a full sus, since you have to use heavy wheels and tyres.

I'd like to try a slack-as-* hardtail with short forks. I've got 140mm in the ragley because that's what it wants, not because it's what I want, and fairly stiff forks to hold the front end up. But it does work... I guess if you tweaked the geometry so it was designed around 100mm instead and had the same head angle and BB height, I'd end up putting all the same wheels, tyres etc and equivalent forks in anyway so it'd be no lighter which is probably what most people would want from a shorter travel hardtail. it's not like I'd suddenly be happy to use Sids or something.

There's been times when I've done some total *up that the travel's come in a bit useful though.

I had 150mm on my BFe for a downhilling holiday in Morzine. Didn't like it at all; fair enough, the forks weren't great. But it just felt really unbalanced, don't think the short stays helped. Plus, with long forks, you end up with a bike that weighs more than a full sus, since you have to use heavy wheels and tyres.

Did the same with a Ragley mmmBop, 160 lyriks on the front, it was crap.

Popped a set of Revs on wound down to 110 with some lighter wheels and it was brilliant.

You guys need to try a fork with proper mid travel support or some malarkey like that. 140mm Mattocs on the front of my Slackline are superb, with the hydraulic bottom out adjust as well they hardly ever bottom out except when absolutely necessary.

finding a bike with decent geometry with a 100mm fork is hard. especially if you are over 6ft.

i loved my revell 450 with 100mm forks but you couldnt really ride it anywhere. strictly pissing about at a spot only.

i used to have an exalt long travel HT but i only bottomed that out once on a rather large drop (gotta love that marzocchi clang) got annoyed by teh weight and got something else.

i have an xc/trail HT with 130mm forks atm but i`ve never got close to bottoming them. i run a stiffer spring and extra oil to ramp em up but keep em long to slacken it out a bit and raise teh low bb a bit. the bikes a bit short for me but its way more fun to get sideways than the dialled PA i also have.

I much prefer my Soul with 140 vs 100mm travel but that's because of the extra slackness on the head angle - I'd rather have the lower BB as with 100mm forks and the longer reach and the steeper seat angle as well, but I don't want to give up the slack head angle. I almost never use the last 20mm on the 140mm forks, they ramp up a lot, which stops it wallowing and steepening too much.

So, I'm getting a custom hardtail frame for 120mm forks - it'll be properly slack head angle! I'm still wondering whether to get a full tapered headtube so I can use anglesets for another 2 degrees of slackness if I want or just a 44m headtube (which Works do a 1 deg slackset for), which would get it into DH bike territory...

Ignoring the trollish nature of the original (well done DTF) 😀

Long travel hardtails are fundamentally retarded, its just a poor mix. Hardly anyone rides them on the Continent or the USA for a reason.

They're popular here because we ride in mud. 8 (or more, IIRC Spesh are now using 12!) pivot bearings are fine if you ride i the dry a lot, and makes great bikes. But for week in week out riding in the UK it's a lot of maintenance. Two incidents/quotes spring to mind, SimonFBarnes (or was it D, I can't remember, the Bogtrotters one) having his Rolhoff warranty refused because they'd looked at his pictures and decided that it didn't constitute mountainbiking to them. And Fox responding to a question about longevity of their forks with words to the effect of "you guys in the UK are a special case, no one makes coatings that'll survive that much mud".

Not saying FS isn't better in almost every way to ride, but a 130mm hardtail is 90% of the bike for 25% of the cost (both to buy and maintain in some cases).

Other countries design make and make bikes, mud is not exclusive to the UK

but I agree that

130mm hardtail is 90% of the bike for 25% of the cost

Long travel hardtails are a hoot although Orange took it a bit far with the original Sub Zero with 170mm Shermans on it.

I love my Switchback with 140mm forks - in fact I love it so much that I never rode my full suss and have just sold it. It suits me fine. I'm not really fussed about what they ride in the states or on the continent.

Other countries design make and make bikes, mud is not exclusive to the UK

No but most of the industry is concentrated in countries/areas with year round riding because they can and it's dry, the UK's almost the opposite, we ride in the mud because that's 85% of the year!

Sam Hill on training/riding in the mud, after 'that' run; "why would I ride in the mud, my bike would get dirty".

Yes Canada might not be dry and dusty all year, and the PNW is as wet as the UK. But they go skiing for the winter months.

I'm waiting to see what Elbry says before venturing an opinion.

thepodge - Member

mud is not exclusive to the UK

I think it was a Fox dude that said the UK has basically the worst conditions in which many people will consider riding year round. We don't get a winter sports season so nobody hangs up the bikes and switches sports, it's not quite bad enough to make outdoor sports madness, and it never really dries out in summer. Seems reasonable to me tbh, I spoke to a bunch of riders at EWS that had genuinely never ridden in conditions we found pretty normal.

But it's nothing to do with that for me, I have a ridiculously capable full suss and sometimes I want to ride something less good but on the same terrain, that's what the hardtail's for.

So, I'm getting a custom hardtail frame for 120mm forks - it'll be properly slack head angle! I'm still wondering whether to get a full tapered headtube so I can use anglesets for another 2 degrees of slackness if I want or just a 44m headtube (which Works do a 1 deg slackset for), which would get it into DH bike territory...

What sort of riding is it going to be used for? I think the problem with going to low/long/slack is it'll feel too stuck to floor and probably won't be as easy to jump over stuff with.

So, I'm getting a custom hardtail frame for 120mm forks - it'll be properly slack head angle! I'm still wondering whether to get a full tapered headtube so I can use anglesets for another 2 degrees of slackness if I want or just a 44m headtube (which Works do a 1 deg slackset for), which would get it into DH bike territory...

Who are you going to get to make your custom one?

^ BTR Ranger ticks that box, 120mm, 64ish HA, you choose the wheel size and some other options.

Oh very nice, got my eye on something like that for my 40th next year. 🙂

So, I'm getting a custom hardtail frame for 120mm forks - it'll be properly slack head angle! I'm still wondering whether to get a full tapered headtube so I can use anglesets for another 2 degrees of slackness if I want or just a 44m headtube (which Works do a 1 deg slackset for), which would get it into DH bike territory...

a wee go on this could tempt me out on a thursday night...

in terms of head angle i think you are better off going for adjustability as its a minefield. if you get the stock HA sensible you can slacken it out or steepen it up depending on how much of a barge it is in the local twisty singletrack.

I took my LT HT to bits to use the parts on a Meta 4X, dunno if I'll build it back up because the Meta is vaguely the same shape, barring the rear suspension obviously 😕 I won't be selling it, cos it's not really worth anything (26", straight steerer) but mainly because it'll look nice hung on the wall! I might end up building my (100mm) Absolut SS back up just to retain a little British misery in my biking life- can't be going soft with all this new-fangled 'suspension', what 😆

Used to run my Soul at 100mm but after riding my Solaris and Soda down a lumpy natural trail I decided 120mm was better after all. Don't know if 120mm counts as 'short' these days. Back in '08 when I bought it 125mm was bordering a 'long' travel HT...

Happy to run the Solaris at 100mm (120mm Rebas reduced).

What sort of riding is it going to be used for? I think the problem with going to low/long/slack is it'll feel too stuck to floor and probably won't be as easy to jump over stuff with.

I know what you mean and I thought that before getting my Spitfire, which is much longer and lower and slacker than my Soul. But the bigger bike is so much more stable it carries speed more easily and I can ride it much more physically without it getting unstable, so for a very amateur jumper like myself, riding mostly 'natural' trails it jumps a lot better.

Basically I bumped into a local frame builder, then later that week got annoyed with feeling less confident on my hardtail so popped in and asked them if they could chop the head tube off it and weld a new one on about 5 degrees slacker, so I could drop the fork to 100mm, lowering, stiffening, lengthening the bike and slackening the HA and steepening the SA. They said they theoretically could but it wouldn't be all that cheap considering it would be a bodge and they could get me a sample made in Taiwan for similar money. Which has then mutated from something which can use all my old 26" components to 27.5 hardtail equivalent of my Spitfire (with the geometry tweaked further...) Might not be so cheap after all! 😉

Mmmmm. It looks like I'm in a small minority who likes longer 150mm forks on my hardtail (A BFe).

I've ridden shorter travel hardtails, but they feel all wrong (to me) when the trail gets very steep or you start hitting larger bumps and drops at higher speeds. I much prefer the wide bars/short stem/140-150mm fork feeling of the BFe. I know I don't look like it, but I feel like I aspire to riding trails like Jinya does on his Chromag HT around Whistler.

Maybe my main problem is that even reading the term 100mm hardtail makes me think of stretched out XC racing machines completely unsuited to the steeper trails I ride. The last time I tried riding those trails on a shorter forked bike, I was constantly getting thrown over the bars on steep hairpins and switchbacks.

So I really don't understand folks who say that such bikes are only for the retarded. A steel frame, 150mm fork and big, fat, grippy 2.4" tyres is a recipe for loads of fun in my book.

I'm considering sticking a 650b+ front end with a shortish travel fork on my Mmmbop. I think it might be quite entertaining.

I love my 140mm hardtail, it's ace and gorgeous to look at (skinny tubed steel frame, eye of the beerholder and all that!) but I don't really know where it sits with what I've got now, which is why I stripped it to build my FS up. Bugger it. I'll build it up light and SS instead of the Absolut 😀 Hurrah!

So I really don't understand folks who say that such bikes are only for the retarded. A steel frame, 150mm fork and big, fat, grippy 2.4" tyres is a recipe for loads of fun in my book.

It's fun (I've built one) but it wasn't more fun than a 5" travel hardtail. The problem is when a FS bike bottoms out the head angle stays about the same, when a 6" travel hardtail bottoms out it's 6deg steeper, just when you really don't want it to be.

Past 120-130mm I found that I was having to shift weight back again (or at least be more centered) as things got rougher, more like a FS as weight on the front lead to huge shifts in geometry, which then meant the back wheel had a lot more work to do, which slowed it down again. So then you put more air in the forks to stiffen them up, then they only use 4-5" of travel, etc and you're back where you started.

Riding a hardtail fast is about compensating for the lack of suspension at the back and the difference in the ability for the front/rear to absorb the bumps, and at some point you can't compensate any further. So a slacker head angle gives the geometry you get with a longer fork, but without the drawbacks (heavy fork and frame).

when a 6" travel hardtail bottoms out it's 6deg steeper, just when you really don't want it to be.

Exactly. Also if you are charging hard enough to use up most of the suspension on a 6" hardtail then IME the back end gets smashed to bits and you either puncture a lot, or end up having to put in high pressures to cope.

Going to a 29er helps as it smooths out the bumps, hence allowing you to run less travel up front.

Echoing others thoughts, it's quite hard to find a slack aggressive HT that will take a 100mm fork unless you want a converted dirt jumper...and they're crap on the trail.

I believe the 456-summer season could take short forks and still have a slack HA....i briefly had a Kona Caldera that had a 68 degree HA with a 100mm fork, that was good fun but bizarrely climbed worse than any other mid to long travel HT I've had!?

For the riding I enjoy, uplift days mainly, I find a steel HT with 140mm forks to be about perfect....i've gone longer and it wasn't as involving, the bike seemed to steam roller everything in its way with too much lurching fore and aft which got tiring having to adjust body position so much to compensate.

The geometry on the new (2016) Genesis Latitude looks great, albeit without the slack head angles some people here seem to be craving*. Very tempted to build it up for the winter by cannibalizing my FS, but as soon as I do I'll miss the sus.

*I would have to attribute at least some of that to shorter tt/reach compounded by longer forks and the aforementioned phenomena of the geo changing as the bike moves through that travel.

My geometry thinking is partly informed by comparing between my hardtail and full-sis but also by what the eccentrics on the fringes are doing, like Jeff Jones and the Jones Plus and Chris Porter and the Mojo Geometron. I think there's something to be said for getting as much stability as possible from the geometry so you're not so reliant on suspension to smooth things out or your tyres having enough grip to let you keep correcting things.

I see this trend towards super short chainstays and I'm not convinced they're as easy to ride on gnarly trails, especially in the wet - though I can see the appeal on more groomed bermy dry trails. And I think if you're increasing the front centre, especially on a hardtail, a very short chainstay is going to lead to your feet having a harder time, though I think dropping the BB does help with that. My original idea was actually adjustable geometry but it was turning out to be a bit overcomplicated and thus contrary to the essence of a steel hardtail - KISS!

It's fun (I've built one) but it wasn't more fun than a 5" travel hardtail. The problem is when a FS bike bottoms out the head angle stays about the same, when a 6" travel hardtail bottoms out it's 6deg steeper, just when you really don't want it to be.

Past 120-130mm I found that I was having to shift weight back again (or at least be more centered) as things got rougher, more like a FS as weight on the front lead to huge shifts in geometry, which then meant the back wheel had a lot more work to do, which slowed it down again. So then you put more air in the forks to stiffen them up, then they only use 4-5" of travel, etc and you're back where you started.

Riding a hardtail fast is about compensating for the lack of suspension at the back and the difference in the ability for the front/rear to absorb the bumps, and at some point you can't compensate any further. So a slacker head angle gives the geometry you get with a longer fork, but without the drawbacks (heavy fork and frame).

OK, so I understand in my head everything that you're saying. If I set my 150mm fork soft, I also understand that the head angle steepens if you compress fully. My own experience is that the head angle steepens the same on a full suss or my HT on certain, very steep trails, since on the slow speed, steep stuff I'm talking about, the rear end of the full suss is not compressing at the same time as the fork.

I'm not trying to impose my opinion on anyone else, but I've definitely noticed the same steepening on both my full suss and HT.

But in my case, I think that perhaps that is because I often don't get the last 1" of travel anyway. This may be a waste, but perhaps it allows the bike to sit up on steep trails. So it's probably like a 5" fork but the length of a 6" fork.

when a 6" travel hardtail bottoms out it's 6deg steeper, just when you really don't want it to be.
Exactly. Also if you are charging hard enough to use up most of the suspension on a 6" hardtail then IME the back end gets smashed to bits and you either puncture a lot, or end up having to put in high pressures to cope.

Going to a 29er helps as it smooths out the bumps, hence allowing you to run less travel up front.

Mmmm. My experience is that it can be a lot of fun to hit rough stuff quickly and allow the fork to soak up the travel on the front end. However, the enjoyable part of riding a HT vs a full suss is the need to manually manage what he rear wheel is hitting to avoid pinch flatting.

Also lastly, even with a relaxed HA, I still don't see how a 100mm fork won't be lower on the front end. That "crouched low over the front" posture is the old school feeling that I have no desire to revisit anytime soon.

I really don't like riding old school XC hardtails - I tried a mate's Whippet once and entered a world of incredible mincing...

Regarding the bar height and riding position - well that isn't really determined by fork travel. It is limited in terms of how low you can go by wheel size, axle to crown length and head tube length but it's easy to go taller by putting some spacers under the stem and/or using a bar with more rise.

The other thing to bear in mind is that it isn't the bar height vs the ground that determines how it feels, it's the bar height vs the bottom bracket. Bikes like your BFe and my Soul have quite a high BB with a 140-150mm fork. The BB height I'm planning is so much lower that the vertical distance between BB and bars will actually be greater, even with only 120mm up front - so the rider will be deeper inside the bike.

There alot of sensible, experienced and well considered comments on this page.

It's not the STW way you know.
I'm very disappointed you've all let your standards rise so far.

You should all individually go and think about what you've done.