[Closed] she does it right

Northwind, I understand what you mean, and yes I agree to a point. But repression and exploitation are the extremes on the normal and we need to be in the middle! Maybe our grandparents were too far one end, and now were too far along the other!

I wouldn't consider a woman of her own volition deciding to point a go pro at her tits to be exploitative. And trying to stop people from doing so because their behaviour doesn't fall within the subjective bounds of your own morality is an affront to liberty.

Only one band appears to be doing so overtly. Why? Is it because they're 'empowered'? Or because they are following a pattern of behaviour which they are told will make them more successful/richer?

Are you implying adult women don't have the neurological processing power required to decide whether or not to be involved in "risky" activities?

Secondly, porn has been associated with a decrease in reported rapes. In a society where people are increasingly single and sexually frustrated due to economic pressures (young men living with parents etc) this might be a good thing. This isn't to say violent porn is a good thing but I can't see how it's a problem, I've heard about a lot of stories in my time and I've never heard any stories about that amongst my peers. Also about encouraging women to act like they do in porn.... good old fashioned monkey sex can be fun and some women actually enjoy it, instead of going in the missionary and thinking of England.

Thirdly, society is exploitative on a far grander scale than women being used because their figures sell. Capitalism, that thing that produces the bicycle between your legs exploits cheap Chinese labour in a country where Health and Safety doesn't exist. Women exploit men for money, employers are more likely to employ good looking people, we exploit animals and the ecosystem for food. The list is freaking endless.

@ Tom_W1987 - the following is a post made by crikey:

To recap; the kind of people who think that the original video is 'harmless', or 'a bit of fun', or simply 'sex sells', haven't sat down with a teenage daughter who gets asked if she wants a shag while she walks home from college.

It's up to you, you decide what kind of world you want to live in, and what kind of world you'd like your daughter to grow up in.

Go back and read the whole thread, see what people think, see what you'd like your daughter to think about your attitude.

What are your thoughts? You mentioned morality. The word is pretty quaint isn't it? Does it deserve to be sneered at though?

It's such a knee-jerk reaction to say that anyone who dislikes the video is hung up about the human body or is sexually repressed, or is filled with Christian guilt. I suspect those comments come from people who don't want to think about exploitation of women because they want to feel guilt themselves.

And reactions such as "so are we not allowed to find other people attractive now" remind me of things my son would say when he was about 4.

Well this thread has made me realise...that people are stuffed. We have rampant misogynistic thoughts, good old fashioned knuckle daggers, pc hand wringing pant wetting gimboids and feminists who want to oppress other women as their way of empowerment through happily and cynically manipulating the male psyhce to make a good living doesn't fit in with their branch of rad fem...oh and then we have those that would assume that no woman would ever choose to show flesh, therefore even if women feel it is their right to do so if they want , it's still that they have been duped by society and have limited mental capacity to see this and need a nice protectve man to stand up for their rights. Then we have those with teenage daughters worried that boys think bad things about them....

Basically people are scum and I refuse to join with the human race or society you are all bloody freaks

I said i'd keep out, because this thread is going nowhere fast, but I can't....

@ Tom_W1987 - the following is a post made by crikey:

To recap; the kind of people who think that the original video is 'harmless', or 'a bit of fun', or simply 'sex sells', haven't sat down with a teenage daughter who gets asked if she wants a shag while she walks home from college.
It's up to you, you decide what kind of world you want to live in, and what kind of world you'd like your daughter to grow up in.

Go back and read the whole thread, see what people think, see what you'd like your daughter to think about your attitude.

What are your thoughts? You mentioned morality. The word is pretty quaint isn't it? Does it deserve to be sneered at though?

And yet the same person started a thread about watching hot women in London to pass the time.

Now, firstly I'll say I agree wholeheartedly with what Crikey has said above, it's not right that his daughter is subjected to that, and I think it's a lot to do with what is deemed as acceptable as portrayed via images on film, adverts MTV and internet.
However, I'd probably while away the time in London in exactly the same way
What i do wonder, is is it getting better, worse or just the same as ever.

I think I'm with Tom_W1987 and Northwind on this one. Try as I might I just can't get wound up about that video - mere titillation (pardon the pun).

I probably fall into the category of women who sometimes play to the stereotypes and indulge in risky behaviour - when it suits me. When I look back over the years and consider if I have ever been exploited in situations and relationship I may have been on a couple of occasions.

Would I change anything in my behaviour of my youth knowing what I know now about the potential to be exploited and what drives some men? Hmmm . . .no I probably wouldnt, only the time I was being exploited for my money.

Sex does indeed sell, because done well there really is nothing else like it. Unfortunately the nearest a lot of people get to sex is imagery and imagination and I guess porn. As women its easy to sneer at the whole industry that is there to serve this purpose for men as they are visually driven, this seems so basic when women are known to be driven sexually more by feelings and thoughts . . . . But really we are no different, how many women got off on the 50 shades series?

Dont get me wrong I am completely against 'exploitation' when it is complete and harmful and the person being exploited is poweless to change the situation - but as Tom rightly says it takes in many forms and we are all subject to it at some point in our lives.

What we have to do as a society is see the situations for what they truly are not label up a whole section of society and media as wrong. Its all part of lifes rich tapestry - indulge if you like, but learn to live and let live as some women really do identify with that imagery and embrace it. One thing is for sure you wont get rid of it unless you roll out some saudi-esq laws, but all you would achieve is removing the images not the exploitation

*small round of applause for the adjustable one*

The only thing I deduce from Tom_W1987's posts is he's not half as clever as he thinks he is.. most of the stuff you've "replied to" you haven't actually understood mate.

Just to be clear, a childish video that's 98% tits and 2% biking does not offend me personally. The point is that a lot of girls and young women are unhappy and stressed by the over sexualised culture they are in, and the expectations on their appearance and behaviour. THat is what concerns me, and it seems that a lot of you are saying you don't want to know that because you don't want to think that you maybe contributing to it.

I can see the world can be a very confusing place, and i feel it is important to look at the world as a whole on this one. As whilst we do have an overly permissive society you need to look at it as a whole to get the real context.

As with so many threads on here - i will say the same again, nothing beats good parental guidance. You need to make your children see the world around them for what it is. As a parent we instill self belief in our children and give them the tools to deal with the big bad world.

I do not expect my children to go out stumbling into life not knowing how to deal with what they come across in terms of images, exploitation and drugs and all the other nasties they may come across. I see that as my job - i definitely wouldn't be relying upon the world to protect them.

Porn, drugs, exploitation, hideously expensive telephones - they are all out there, but my children know that doesn't mean they are obliged to get involved, and more importantly they do not feel pressured to. that is our role as parents surely?

Crikey, nine pages in...

I'm rather ambivalent about it. On one hand, the rider in the vid is a hell of a lot better on a bike than I am and is clearly pretty handy - all good so far. However I'm confused as to why the rider's face was never shown while an amount of cleavage bordering on the gratuitous was out instead. What's the point here?

I find the sexualization of it pretty sad...but then I'm definitely not the target audience - I'm probably old enough to be the rider's dad. I wonder how the younger audiences will react, if at all?

This is NOT unconnected to the objectification of women we see every day in pop cultures.

It is? Because you'd think that Spain wouldn't have it worse than we do considering not long ago it was a very conservative country, you'd think India wouldn't have worse than we do considering it still is a very conservative country.

The only time my girlfriend started being cat called is since she moved into a predominantly conservative Asian part of London.

What are your thoughts? You mentioned morality. The word is pretty quaint isn't it? Does it deserve to be sneered at though?

My thoughts are as follows:

The "what about your daughter" line is simply an appeal to emotion, I won't be part of it. The real problem is the minority of men who already hold deeply seated misogynistic beliefs, getting rid of porn or altering consumer culture won't change them. Telling women what they can or can not do with their bodies is no different if it's men telling them what to do out of their own insecurities (see the middle east) or western feminists of a certain brand - both are oppressive controlling ideologies. The whole argument also reminds me of computer game controversy eg "Is GTA ruining our society" - the answer always being no, no and no (violent computer games decrease rates of violence in children).

My other thought is that if daughters can't distinguish between marketing and reality thus causing themselves massive anxiety whilst they try to attain that which they can never achieve, then they need educating or lots of psychological therapy. As it's clear they were never mentored properly by a parent or teacher.

Telling women what they can or can not do with their bodies is no different if it's men telling them what to do out of their own insecurities (see the middle east) or western feminists of a certain brand - both are oppressive controlling ideologies.

Big old straw man argument in there (which others have already used) - I don't think you'll find anyone (here at least) calling for videos like this to be banned, or for women to be told they aren't allowed to appear in them.

Not liking the video isn't the same as an oppressive controlling ideology. At all.

I agree with your point about the appeal to emotion though. It's basically the old classic 'speaking as a parent' as if that gives you some extra moral authority, which is nonsense.

As a final point, I was an ugly duckling (not bad looking now and certainly got by at university) whilst I was at school - lots of people including girls saw fit to take the piss back then but I hold no grudge about it. These days I get the most attention from women when I'm wearing a nice suit - my point being that I was objectified at school and now as an adult.....everyone does it. From my perspective (my socioeconomic level) the dating scene comprises of successful women who want more successful men than them (Think Sex and the City syndrome, I am still expected to be the breadwinner) so you could argue that men are exploited and objectified (being noticed more when wearing a suit) for their financial resources.

So all in all I don't give a damn. Everyone's doing it and moaning about one part of it is like moaning about an erosion of Christian equality whilst berating Muslims, utterly hypocritical. Then again I have a very cynical and rather nihilistic view of the human condition....

That's just 'whatabouttery' and not a logical argument. Saying one thing isn't an issue because something else is also an issue. It's possible to care about more than one thing and not have to make reference to all the ills of the world every time you discuss something.

Eg women here complain about sexual harassment, but what about FGM in Africa? Isn't that a bigger issue? It's largely an irrelevant diversion to the discussion.

And saying 'well women do bad stuff so men can too' is just advocating a race to the bottom.

PJM1974 - Member
Crikey, nine pages in...

I'm rather ambivalent about it. On one hand, the rider in the vid is a hell of a lot better on a bike than I am and is clearly pretty handy - all good so far. However I'm confused as to why the rider's face was never shown while an amount of cleavage bordering on the gratuitous was out instead. What's the point here?

Think that's the salient point - the girls face isn't shown, her name isn't even mentioned (maybe, I could be wrong there). She's not even granted the status of a person, just a pair of tits.

That crosses some arbitrary line in my head - there's a difference between reducing someone to just tits and looking at a pic of someone like Emily Batty and thinking "Wow, she looks great".

Casually dispensing with the person altogether is the very definition of onjectification. That bugs me, even though there'a a part of my brain chiding me for taking it so seriously.

I guess you're right Grum, I just think there's a point where it starts to become ridiculous. I find the whole "it's the media and porn causing us to objectify each other" when really it's just human ****ing nature. That's what we're like and denying it or pinning the blame on one group or part of society is simply a hilarious level of self deceit, the solution is just good old fashioned mindfulness. We all need to be more mindful of each other, men and women included.

Think that's the salient point - the girls face isn't shown, her name isn't even mentioned (maybe, I could be wrong there). She's not even granted the status of a person, just a pair of tits.

Maybe....just maybe you're reading into the video to much. She's probably just a narcissist who wanted en ego boost without people she knew identifying her.

* bangs head against wall ... repeatedly *

honourablegeorge - Member

Think that's the salient point - the girls face isn't shown, her name isn't even mentioned (maybe, I could be wrong there). She's not even granted the status of a person, just a pair of tits.

Mostly because she's wearing a full face helmet 😆 But no, she's not "just a pair of tits", there is an entire body attached and it's riding a bike.

I think I'd have much less of a problem with this video if it had Red Bull Media House standards of cinematography. 😆

It just seems a bit cheap and lame.

I guess you're right Grum, I just think there's a point where it starts to become ridiculous. I find the whole "it's the media and porn causing us to objectify each other" when really it's just human **** nature. That's what we're like and denying it or pinning the blame on one group or part of society is simply a hilarious level of self deceit, the solution is just good old fashioned mindfulness. We all need to be more mindful of each other, men and women included.

I'm all for mindfulness - but I'm not sure going 'oh well objectifying each other is human nature so let's just get on with it' is particularly helpful.

Isn't it also human nature to lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape etc then?

Isn't it also human nature to lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape etc?

Those are outlawed in the name of civilisation, so not doing those things serves a purpose. However objectifying people unfortunately plays a rather large role within evolution, so we go back to my point of mindfulness. We need to accept the human condition and be mindful of others and our place in the world but not deceive ourselves, shaming people who produce videos like the one posted is not the answer. Teaching people to be aware of what we as humans are like and to treat others with some respect when out in public is the answer. Marketing sexuality sells but you don't have to be caught up by it, banning it instead of dealing with how people interact with the world around them defeats the real point and misses a vital lesson.

But we won't do that, what we will do is "ban this sick filth" and then we'll go on treating each other like shit (especially those with no voice to get whatever it is they don't like banned) as if nothing happened.

* bangs head against wall ... repeatedly *

When you do that...are your breasts jiggling very slightly...?

😉

my point being that I was objectified at school and now as an adult.....everyone does it

I dont get puritanical about it but I would prefer a society that viewed women as something other than things to be objectified. We wont stop sexual attraction - as if anyone wants to- but we dont have to do this either.

Objectify
degrade to the status of a mere object.

I doubt this is what you really mean when you use that word - I cannot see how it is positive to see them as just an object measured on how much you would like to "do" them

PS Its rare we have an mature debate on STW well done all

Anyone that sees a girl in the video is a sexist bastard.

To be fair devs I actually did notice the Ancillotti first.

Junky read some of my newer posts, I am kind of thinking out loud though.

FWIW I think you mean everyone has sexual attractions but this is some way short of objectifying.

Yes I meant objectify, everyone does defining someones worth in terms of their socio-economic status is also objectification. Again my point is this..... the paradigm in which this argument is being frame throughout this thread is crap.... the problem is not with marketing, porn etc....it's with people.....if we as a society clamp down on lads mags etc then we are missing a vital lesson to be learnt. We will have simply banned whatever is in vogue on the outrage bus and we will then go on objectifying and generally being nasty to each other in a myriad of other ways. There is another way though which I have already mentioned.

Yes I meant objectify, everyone does.

I dont think anyone thinks we can stop it, there are lots of things we cannot stop murser, rape, stealing for example o but that does not mean we should ignore it either just because, some, humans do it and think its "normal and we all do it"

Again you're mostly missing my point and delving into semantics but I do feel at least 70 percent of people objectify each other. You seem like an optimist to me Junky, unfortunately I'm not.

Now would those people in the spelling bee, be nicer to the black person because 1) Society had taught them it's not okay to be nasty to some people but okay to be nasty to others or 2) Because they had become slightly more philosophical and aware of themselves and others?

Well the word does mean something so it is self evidently a semantic point
70 % is less than all - sorry not trying to point score here as it has IMHO ben a very intersting debate on STW
I dont think we do all objectify but we all [ except Lord Stephen Fry] have sexual desires and attractions to certain genders/people
That is some way short of debasing to the point of an object though which is what objectify means

I do agree with your broader points to some degre just not the word you are using to describe it

No access to You Tube so cannot comment on it
I will leave it there not trying to provoke an argument or thread hijack

To me objectification means treating a person as thing without regard for their feelings so it can mean sexual attraction without social conscience but to me it can also mean degenerating people for their lack of wealth or looks, lots of men and women do this.

And if you don't believe me when I think that at least all men (including you Junky) objectify women, read this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-our-brains-turn-women-into-objects

devs - Member

Anyone that sees a girl in the video is a sexist bastard.

Anyone that sees a bike is a buftie

Northwind - Member

Mostly because she's wearing a full face helmet But no, she's not "just a pair of tits", there is an entire body attached and it's riding a bike.

They did focus on her arse a couple of times, to be fair. I was struggling to see what kind of bike she was on at the time. 🙂

I clocked the bike as an ancillotti
[img] [/img]
fairly distinctive, honestly I had got bored of the tits and was wondering what the video was about

Yeah, they are distinctive eh. Spondon pushbike 😆

But we won't do that, what we will do is "ban this sick filth"

[img] [/img]

Why is it a straw man argument Grum when my broad point was in response to this quote.

's like we're sucked into this weird Porn/ idealised/bitch fest where pointing a Gopro at your tits is apparently ok behaviour!!! How brainwashed do you need to be??

Why is pointing a go pro at your tits not okay and why is it okay that women are shamed for doing so instead of the men who can't distinguish between the internet and reality when dealing with women in public? The video's not the problem here, it's that some people have made undignified posts that alienate some of the female and male members. Then again I'm not bothered if they posted pictures or videos of male or female riders they like because I'm above being offended by it.

*runs headfirst at wall*

[quote=Lifer ]*runs headfirst at wall*

did you video your man bits while doing it? Will it sell t-shirts?

But it has to be 'personal' not because of some image or idea from a magazine. Not forced on you by someone else

I'm sorry but you have to have somewhat of a weak mind to have it forced into you're psyche. Again the issue here is not media content it's the minds of some of those that view it who are in need of some enlightenment. I'd also argue some concepts of beauty are neurologically ingrained (as evidenced by the baby studies) the media is just a reflection of who we are at a deep level neurologically. So we again we come back to the point that we need to look inwards to our own psychological makeup to deal with this issue and not point and blame others.

If I ever kill someone I'll tell the judge Eminem encouraged me to do it.

grum - Member

😆

Can we continue this debate on Woman's Hour please!

Why is pointing a go pro at your tits not okay and why is it okay that women are shamed for doing so

[img] [/img]

So it is your view that no one is impacted by the culture around them and what they see? We all grew up free hence why we see so many men in skirts ? Somewhere between we are powerless against itand it does not affect me at all lies the truth.

Some of this debate was about how sexual practice/behaviour had changed in young people due to them watching porn for an example of it being real

To me objectification means

And if you don't believe me when I think that at least all men (including you Junky) objectify women,

Then again I'm not bothered if they posted pictures or videos of male or female riders they like because I'm above being offended by it

Pherhaps its the constant exposure to images like this within our permissive society and culture that has led to your tolerance/lack of offence....though of course you are unaffected by such things from up there

So it is your view that no one is impacted by the culture around them and what they see? We all grew up free hence why we see so many men in skirts ? Somewhere between we are powerless against itand it does not affect me at all lies the truth.

Some of this debate was about how sexual practice/behaviour had changed in young people due to them watching porn for an example of it being real

I'm saying trying to change the media as opposed to how we view the world and our place in it is a much worse, more psychologically unhealthy long term solution to the problem.

You don't have to be affected by the media and develop an eating disorder if you receive better education, realise it's just fantasy and rise above it. What you seem to be arguing for is that we ban whatever we don't like and/or pretend it doesn't exist. It's utterly immature.

Pherhaps its the constant exposure to images like this within our permissive society and culture that has led to your tolerance/lack of offence....

No, it's because I've dealt with far more offensive things and rose above it - instead I could have spent years bottling anger up inside. I don't really do Buddhism but that would be a good place to start.

what a lot of fuss over a few cm of someone's body. good grief 😐