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A quick google of the initials brings up Diary of a Mountaim Biker. Local loose-knit club.
I have some ideas about PP but don't want to say unless sure.
GB
Sorry Gee, is that in answer to my Question? I know who DOAMTB are and I know who PP is. It's more to do with why DOAMTB have been mentioned as they very rarely ride that area as a group.
So PeterPoddy has been riding around hurling abuse at squadies ? Tut tut.
😉
I live backing onto Ash Ranges and often ride there and will lose a lot of riding time in the evenings if we lose access to this and Tunnel Hill.
From speaking to the range officer at Ash Ranges he said that they had instances of both MTBers and dog walkers clearing walking on the ranges in the last few weeks when the red flags/ lanterns were up. They have been using he ranges extensively in the last few weeks as they wait to deploy abroad.
They have also had riders on night rides come riding through the middle of exercises with 1500lumen lights in big group and couldn't see why they would this would disturb the troops on exercise, they were rightly told to piss off by the military and carried on riding.
All it takes is a sensible approach, it is not difficult, respect that the land you are riding on is MOD land first, a nice place to ride second.
Oh I see - no it was an answer to Andy's question above. I'm not sure I understand what Si is saying - are these groups causing trouble or being good?
I am constantly amazed by the actions and general stupidity of my fellow riders - actions such as those described above are deplorable in the worst possible sense. I am generally losing confidence in the happy, fun nature of mtbers in general. People have even stopped saying hello on the trails. More and more complaints about poor manners and rudeness at races, people ending up in lakes after being barged off, swearing at fellow competitors... Can't these tools bugger off back to the golf course.
GB
I'm not sure I understand what Si is saying
I don't either, in relation to DOAMTB and PP.
Also, PP may refer to PorridgePot rather than a person. Or it may not. Hopefully he may clarify!
double post
I meant PH not PP 😳
And i have received complaints about these, as on group wears a top with it on and other info on the other!!! Not proper MTBers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will be having a word with PH which appear to be the main offenders!!!
Pedal Heaven ?
Pedal Heaven ?
The outfit that ****ed over the other outfit?
Some field discipline in order? No witnesses.
From speaking to the range officer at Ash Ranges he said that they had instances of both MTBers and dog walkers clearing walking on the ranges in the last few weeks when the red flags/ lanterns were up.
let them get shot - it is Darwinian evolution, init?
They have also had riders on night rides come riding through the middle of exercises with 1500lumen lights in big group and couldn't see why they would this would disturb the troops on exercise, they were rightly told to piss off by the military and carried on riding.
there is already a threat of bike confiscation - but why don't they just confiscate their lights and let the buggers find their own way out.
Or even video the incidents and put it up on youtube to name and shame - the bikers would never be able to come out looking anything less than ar5es.
I have to think that the lights are the biggest issue - night vision gone in a flash which will take another half hour to get back.
Blanket ban against night riding on MOD land - easy to find the perps as they have extremely bright lights 🙂
yepp
It could effect future events on Eelmore!
long term I cant see the army winning. The population is increasing especially in the SE there will be more and more pressure for acess in these areas.
With swinley starting parking charges it will be interesting to see if these areas actually become more busy at the weekend.
As has been pointed out, the MOD control a large amount of land in the an area which is short of land for development, most of it common land that was seized in WW2 for training purposes and never returned despite pledges at the time. The government is reviewing MOD land to see what can be sold off and used for building on. Although most of this land has conservation status, the latest planning rules are watering a lot of this down.
Where we have been riding on the same S/T for the last 15 plus years we are influencing rights of access will which make it more difficult to develop the land, hence the use of private land management companies to restrict access. Give it a couple of years of reduced access and see what comes up for development sale.
Hmm bit of a long thread now
The MOD has so much land around the surrey/hants/west sussex border
Its quite ridiculous as they hardly use it but in the last 6months are
Putting the frighteners on dog walkers and bikers. Agree that if red flags are up
Then We should steer clear, but when they rent it out to filming (eg latest
Bond film) for 3 months making thousands of pounds per day and still
Moan about dog walkers and bIkers then its double standards.
The MOD has too much land, its costing them (via us the tax payer) alot
to maintain when they could simply hand it over to the forestry commission or national trust. They simply dont need it all. They are just greedy you know whats. Whitehall is run by muppets who are stuck in the 50's. 16 year old kids would be better snipers and war game strategists than a bunch of squaddies playing shootem ups on hankley common.
Ps using iphone so sorry for all the split sentances and capital letters
Why keep developing in the south - start the investment moving north ffs.
Look at Cardiff docks - used to be a complete sh1thole and now it is a fully developed plot with expensive housing and shops, and sometimes features in Dr Who and that other one with that camp broadway-type bloke.
TandemJeremy - Member
This so makes me laugh. Why on earth does the public being on the land make any difference to the squadies training?Our local riding spot - the pentlands has a fair amount of army training on it and no significant restrictions on who can go where. I have ridden right thru a night exercise when on a night ride. Perfectly legitimately and with no complaints
Sums up the problem with people using training areas. You impact the training as they with have to take account of you asserting your "TJ" given right to do what you want. You impact the training when you flounder through the exercise, you don't get stopped because of the discipline the forces impose, I really don't doubt that there would have been a queue to fill you in without it.
But you will never have the face incoming fire from people who want to kill you so why care?
We built some marvellous stunt ramps and elevated planks over Tunnel Hill years ago. They lasted a lot longer than the stuff we built on Forestry Commission land. Interestingly when it did get trashed the MOD built their own rather shite stuff?
Funny old game.
really - where?
I've seen a number of places up the west coast/west highlands, while on my wanders, where there was significant signage that suggested entry was a BIG no-no and have heard more than a couple of reports of people wandering into them as kids and being removed and politely delivered back to their parents with a stern warning. I've personally walked up to a fence and been met by an unhappy looking face that popped out of a bush and waved a weapon at me telling me not to even think about crossing the fence.
FWIW your comments about walking through training exercises with no problem and no flags suggests simply that you stumbled upon a simple non-live training exercise where it was safe for you to be ignored. This does not suggest that live training is "worked around" by Scottish military or that there's universal access to land here. There clearly isn't, you don't honestly think that no live firing goes on here? Or that down south they always keep people out of exercises regardless of their live firing or not?
From my limited 3rd party knowledge of live fire training that goes on down south the presence of any unexpected person would be a nightmare, bringing everything to a halt and making the whole exercise a waste of time and public cash because joe bloggs wanted to cycle his bike down a specific path. These are real live-firing arrangements where people walk around whole areas firing live rounds and trying not to kill real people. This is expensive. They don't do it for the fun of it.
I too have ridden through exercises in the Pentlands,no signs up, nothing, no trouble...so it seems there's a bit of TJ bashing going on here. (same has happened on the Ciaran path)
I've no idea what the rules are North v South, but IIRC all they ask in the Pentlands is you stick to the paths when the flags are up.
Bear in mind this is a small and busy area right on the edge of a 500,000 occupant city.
Point is Al the thread's about the military land in SE not the Pentlands, which may well be a
....a small and busy area right on the edge of a 500,000 occupant city
but these ranges are even smaller and busier and on the edge of a metropolitan area with a population of more than three times the whole of Scotland
....IIRC all they ask in the Pentlands is you stick to the paths when the flags are up.
pretty much the same as "our" rules; use the land with consideration and keep out of the areas where the military are working
I know, I was responding mostly to big_n_daft's response above.
variflex - the Army needs a variety of land to keep exercises challenging, realistic and to reduce travelling time and cost. Currently, it has access to huge areas of Germany, Kenya and Canada. However, as troops return from Germany and budgets shrink, more will have to be done locally. Also traing areas are sometimes not used as fauna and flora are often allowed to recover to prevent overuse such as soil erosion, compacted ground etc. The MOD manages its estates well and are good conservationists. Sometimes, exercising troops simply can't be seen or heard - camouflage and concealment being part of field craft. I doubt the NT or FC will allow more access or the building of jumps and north shore structures.
The Pentlands can't be compared to training areas in England. There are five times as many troops in Aldershot-Camberley-Deepcut-Pirbright than the whole of Scotland and four times as many in Catterick Garrison. The Pentland ranges at Castlelaw are contained by the topography and ranges are easily seen from miles around. At Ash Ranges the ground is largely flat with thick pine forests between multiple ranges - all to easy to walk/ride into.
So far, the MOD has been remarkable patient and obliging. Let's not piss them off.
Redfordrider - you make a fantastic point on the MOD and conservation - they put a huge effort into it and really are one of the worlds best at looking after the flora and fauna on the land that they own.
Lets not forget that the land at Ceasars Camp is pretty heavily designated for conservation value, and this may be a major factor in anything going on, especially if people have been digging trails etc without permission.
As I said on the Hankley common thread a little while back:
[i]The MOD is one of the best neighbours MTB'ers could have! proven more than enough times in this area - As a community, the one thing we don't need to be doing is firing up the outrage bandwagon every five minutes over something that turns out to be nothing [/i]
So, lets get our facts straight - hopefully the TAG guys will be able to find out some actual facts and feed them back to us all, on what exactly is going on, what the problems are, and what we as a community can do to police ourselves, educate each other, and work with the MOD to ensure that responsible and reasonable access continues as it has for years.
SO, I see my questions still stand:
In the light of this, are Gorrick and the Trolls going to stop riding/racing/building trails on this land?
Pants, you're in the Army, the ACU, you build trails and organise races on this land. Are you gonna stop that? Becasuse as such your actions are a significant part of the problem 🙂
I think not. 🙂
The MOD has too much land, its costing them (via us the tax payer) alot
to maintain when they could simply hand it over to the forestry commission or national trust. They simply dont need it all. They are just greedy you know whats. Whitehall is run by muppets who are stuck in the 50's. 16 year old kids would be better snipers and war game strategists than a bunch of squaddies playing shootem ups on hankley common.
You sound like a petty stockbroker living in Surrey who thinks he is above those who need to use exercise areas rather than those who want to use them. Looking down your nose at those who use your desired playground to train to stay alive is unpleasant to say the least.
Pants, you're in the Army, the ACU, you build trails and organise races on this land. Are you gonna stop that? Becasuse as such your actions are a significant part of the problem
Not sure whether attempting irony or being bone. Poor use of smileys confusing issue.
"There are five times as many troops in Aldershot-Camberley-Deepcut-Pirbright"
This is the issue. Seeing as Population is increasing in south especially and services and are being streches why not move the trooPs out ?
surely the MOD can get a good rate for the bases and develop them into housing and retain most of the land.
This is the issue. Seeing as Population is increasing in south especially and services and are being streches why not move the trooPs out ?surely the MOD can get a good rate for the bases and develop them into housing and retain most of the land.
Yes, read up on Bordon Eco Town for what happens when they try to do exactly this...
I suspect the Trolls will be reducing their use of the land esp on the larger rides.
Having said that I guess some folk will still be nipping out to ride those fire roads on the way to Swimley.
Gorrick will, i guess continue to use the land they book.
"There are five times as many troops in Aldershot-Camberley-Deepcut-Pirbright"This is the issue.
What issue? The military has been in these areas for a very long time and it serves them well with all of the area that they own. Why would they move?
Do you really want the military to disappear and the areas to be developed, because that's what would happen. Rather than becoming some kind of leisure Mecca it would be covered in red brick houses in very short order, I'll guarantee you that.
[i]TooTall- "You sound like a petty stockbroker living in Surrey who thinks he is above those who need to use exercise areas rather than those who want to use them. Looking down your nose at those who use your desired playground to train to stay alive is unpleasant to say the least. "[/i]
I wish I was a petty stockbroker. If I was I'd buy a hundred acres of forest thus not need to cross MOD land.
Ive grown up around this area and have used MOD land since a kid (now in my late thirties). Im more hacked off about the MOD's attitude towards dog walkers than MTBers. They go around highlighting dog poo with luminous spray paint and write ridiculous letters to local residents threatening closure because the troops dont like lying down in poo on night exercise.
All Im trying to say is that from local residents point of view, vast amounts of the land is UNUSED for 90% of the time, no matter what the MOD may say or think. Do they really need it, no I think they could reduce their land grabbing by 30-40% and still have adequate cover for training purposes.
If anything the use is going to drop as troop numbers will reduce over the next 10-50 years due to more use of technology and systems that mitigate the need to put soldiers lives at risk, something both the UK and US have learned to their detriment in the current "war" if you can really call it that (more like using war as an excuse for natural resource grabbing).
There can be reasonable half way house to this constant public vs MOD conflict, its just whitehall needs to haul itself into the twenty first century and ditch the stiff upper lip.
vast amounts of the land is UNUSED for 90% of the time
Whilst I agree that the land isn't used all the time, 90% is a big number. They wouldn't use the land much more as there is a need to manage it environmentally as well. Would you be OK with their presence if they used the areas more then?
Im more hacked off about the MOD's attitude towards dog walkers than MTBers.
You think that soldiers lying down in dog crap is acceptable then? Writing letters to locals would seem a reasonable first response in an effort to rectify the situation. What would you prefer to see happen?
Do they really need it, no I think they could reduce their land grabbing by 30-40% and still have adequate cover for training purposes.
This is reviewed on a continual basis and the estate is under massive pressure to reduce in size. However, bringing the troops back from Germany means troops need to exercise more in the UK, so more pressure on areas. The MoD is actively moving to different locations to make best use of other resources IOT free up other areas. That will just be built on in the future.
If anything the use is going to drop as troop numbers will reduce over the next 10-50 years due to more use of technology and systems that mitigate the need to put soldiers lives at risk
No it won't. It might change, but it won't reduce.
whitehall needs to haul itself into the twenty first century and ditch the stiff upper lip
About what? Stopping their users lying in dog crap? Preventing innocent (ignorant?) people wandering around during dangerous military exercises? Simple health and safety and duty of care - nothing else there.
Once again, this just highlights the fact that we don't have a credible national organisation to represent us. 🙁
Why dont the resident just pick their shit up then FFS? Conflict over.
Your attitude completely baffles me. **** it, I hope they properly ban you.
As regards shit, I'm quite sure the Army get caught short whilst on exercise!
Could you post a link to how this has been calculated. I'm sure MoD would love to reduce their land management overheads by this much.they could reduce their land grabbing by 30-40% and still have adequate cover for training purposes
Cg, they do. Dozens of portaloos are scattered around tunnel hill.
Complete with pink fluffy bog paper. 😀
Not round Aldershot. Digging toilets is prohibited in most areas because of conservation requirements, hence the portaloos in random places!As regards shit, I'm quite sure the Army get caught short whilst on exercise!
Without lowering the tone, are you telling me that in the middle of an exercise, they put their hand up and ask to be excused? 😀
Seriously?
DNA test all the dogs in the area so they know which house the dog crap came from and then just post it back though the letterbox...
Once again, this just highlights the fact that we don't have a credible national organisation to represent us.
We tried, hardly any mountain bikers joined
CTC Tried, hardly any mountain bikers joined
Exercises cover all sorts of tasks, it's not all hiding in a ditch for a week! Do you put your hand up at work and ask to go to the toilet? 🙂Without lowering the tone, are you telling me that in the middle of an exercise, they put their hand up and ask to be excused?
Not sure whether attempting irony or being bone. Poor use of smileys confusing issue.
Telling the truth!
Smileys because I know Pants very well and I don't want to sound like I'm having a pop at him.... Just asking the question!
Pants, Shortcut, me , Cinnamon Girl and a fair few others here, we're all locals, we've all had a hand in promoting these trails and in many cases actually building them (There's actually one called "Pants way down"....!)
I'm just fixing the whole situation a bit odd. There's no way on this earth this land will be fenced off. Aint never gonna happen. If it does, people will be through it like a rat up a drainpipe.
Equally, only a TINY FRACTION of the people that ride on it will ever be asked to leave. (Has anybody actually been fined?)
It's too open. It has rights of way across it which CANNOT be blocked by the MOD, or anyone else, there's too many people been using it for too many years for too many things. The worst thing the MOD can ever hope to do is plough the trails up. And as we know, more will spring up, and if it's for 'conservation reasons' then the Army will have to stop crawling through it and digging holes in it too!
Making people aware of Army usage and everyone getting on together (There's some twits about) is the key. We already know this. TAG was set up to help for just this reason
To me it sounds like someone's got a bee in their bonnet, nowt more, nowt less.
Perhaps we should merely concentrate on our own behaviours? Surely the most important thing to do here is to avoid unnecessary confrontation. As much as I find some of the MOD arguments strange re usage stats on Hankley, I'm only seeing it from my experience. But there are two things that and I, and the rest of us can do, to ease the situation. Show consideration when riding and dog walking. There is no excuse for bad Mtb behaviour towards the military as has been suggested earlier and that is easy to eradicate. I am innocent here but guilty on the second charge re dog mess. Always take bags on local areas but have been a little lazy when it comes to more open places like Hankley. There really is no excuse and I need to adjust my behaviour (which I have done there recently) and carry bags and dispose of mess correctly at all times. There is no excuse and to do otherwise is simple selfish and inconsiderate. So lesson learned. Lets all just do the same and calm the situation down. It is in our control - no excuses if we fail on our side.
CG one of the things the army could do is to ensure that ration packs are taken away. Even the green ones (!) are litter and there is lots of it in the obvious bivvi sites around Hankley. I can forgive flare canisters but basic litter is in the same category as my dog's mess. Easily avoidable.