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We’ll know more by Monday as either they have an interested party waiting or it’s a last gasp before it all folds.
If as suggested up there somewhere the reason the liquidity was pulled was trouble at the top rather than inherent issues with the company then hopefully they can find a buyer. It's a strong brand with - until very recently - a strong position and a lot of potential for someone with the pockets to get through this.
I can imagine some of the house brands being dumped to allow them to focus better on retail or being hived off into a purely direct to consumer company distinct from wiggle crc.
(I suspect it'll be Wednesday when all those invoices tick past month end that we'll see something rather than Monday but purely guess work)
Shall we have a whip round and run it as a benevolent co-operative?
Good lord. Can you imagine the faff! You'd need to start the AGM 18 months early just to be sure everyone was likely to be ready by the time it's due to start.
Then ten minutes in you'd start with the "oh my pen has run out can I borrow yours" from the 80% who prefer to turn up to a full day meeting with only the clothes their wearing.
It's a real shame, hope they find a buyer. They've been around ages, and I've been pretty impressed with the Vitus/Nukeproof/Ragley stuff I've had.
Anyone remember the old magazine ads? This is from 24 years ago when we used to ride around lead-acid powered halogen lights and 80mm travel elastomer forks.
Crc had black hope v4 brakes for £159.99 earlier this week which is the cheapest id seen them by a mile, they also but e4s down quite a bit. Managed to get the V4s price matched by Tredz, glad I didn't wait around.
Was srprised to see Onguard locks in that list, they give all appearances of still trading as normal.
DT78
Free Memberharobikes – weren’t they a decent bmx brand too?
Aye, though like most bmx brands they also did a lot of crap. Bob Haro was one of the BMX riders in ET! Though, he sold up 30 years ago.
What does "renewal date" mean for those brands?
How does the latest news affect refunds. I have a frame to go back is it safe to do it.
How does the latest news affect refunds.
Officially it doesn't but...
I have a frame to go back is it safe to do it
They may not be there when you do, that would be bad.
Any return currently is a gamble
On refunds, I think it's hard to say.
I decided to bite the bullet and send my outstanding returns back on Weds via next day courier. Arrived with Wiggle yesterday and was refunded at 10am this morning. How long that continues for is anyone's guess.
neverbeentomoabFull Member<br />How does the latest news affect refunds. I have a frame to go back is it safe to do it.<br /><br />
i sent back a pair of £90 trousers on Monday, I suspect I’ll never see the refund..
May have been mentioned already (just catching up with the thread) and administrators appointed today.
I was owed £650 for an eBay dispute by Trisportsresort (wiggles eBay account) and was very pleased to have got it this morning after a prompt.
I was owed £650 for an eBay dispute by Trisportsresort (wiggles eBay account) and was very pleased to have got it this morning after a prompt.
Nice one mate, just squeaked it in there.
😀
Sorry if this has been posted on here already but The EscapeCollective Geek Warning podcast has just been talking about this and said Mike Ashley might interested in parts of the business.
Coming soon - the 2024 £399 Nukeproof Mega Hybrid with Shimano Tourney 7 speed, rack and guards.
Where do the staff fit in this? At some point if they aren’t likely to get paid
I believe just after the tax man and before the banks for wages (and holiday?) other stuff like expenses they’re unsecured creditors and get pence in the pound if they’re lucky.
My understanding is wages are the priority, then the creditors get whatever is left
There is usually nothing left after the administrators rinse the cash with their admin fees.
Administrators will (almost) certainly tighten returns and refund policies to satisfy only the minimum legislative requirements.
Anything else will be at their absolute discretion
I think it depends - for a large brand that depends on customer care (ie a john lewis) that wouldn't be the case as you lose more value messing with the brand than you get for refusing a couple of kettles. for someone like CRC where that's less of a issue, I expect you're right. That said, the stuff they punt on their ebay site (returns/ex demos) doesn't seem to be loads cheaper than the stuff on their core site
Employees are somewhere near the bottom of creditors. It's the banks/secured lending first, then HMRC, then suppliers.
There is usually nothing left after the administrators rinse the cash with their admin fees
Exactly this!
There is usually nothing left after the administrators rinse the cash with their admin fees.
This is unfair (in general). Administration is time consuming and difficult. There are many creditors and shareholders just waiting to pounce on you for the slighest wasted expenditure. It's facile to blame administrators instead of the former management for creditors not getting paid (in general).
It’s facile to blame administrators instead of the former management for creditors not getting paid
The difficulty is the administrator is often more expensive than the day to day running of the business. It's not that they're not doing a hard job and doing it well, it's that they sure as hell know how to charge for that and manage to take their money when even the tax man can't.
It's difficult not to find it galling that a business can enter administration for two weeks and end up paying 60-70% of its value to the administrator leaving everyone else to squabble over the 30% when there would have been a 3x bigger pot to divy up had they just gone bust.
Of course counter to that are the businesses saved when they go into administration who go on to settle up their debts and come back out profitable. There's got to be at least one of those a year.
Employees are somewhere near the bottom of creditors. It’s the banks/secured lending first, then HMRC, then suppliers.
Happy to be proven wrong but I'm pretty sure you've got the ordering here incorrect.
It's a long time since I had any reason to be interested but seem to recall when it all loomed over me:
VAT
salaries
Secured lending
Other tax & NI liabilities
Supplier (contractual only)
Redundancy
Unsecured creditors (including supplier - anything outside contractual debt)
Can I place a bet on Mike Ashley coming in to buy it all? Evans / Wiggle / CRC / Sports Direct all under one roof.
In fact, I bet he buys it, takes the stock and closes it all to leave one overarching brand selling bikes and kit...
I'm not so sure, his businesses are very high street focused wiggle crc just doesn't fit that model.
That being said there's a definite gap for a "last season" clearance cycling kit shop online (think Paul's cycles but for bits and clothes) and crc wiggle would slip into that without anyone noticing the change.
Hotlines would be gone overnight though.
I thought it would be HMRC/Govt first, but apparently not:
But sorry, employees are much higher up than I thought
Since 1st December 2020, HMRC are also ranked as secondary preferential creditors
I wonder if they were higher up the list previously.
But fair do, I stand corrected too.
It's the internet, it's only normal we were both wrong
Having been in the receiving end of tbis situation twice last year (frying pan - fire) paying staff is fairly low on the list. You can however claim loss of earnings, pension, redundancy pay if applicable from the govt but its capped at i think £570 a week. (You get taxed on this and it takes a few weeks to set up, complete forms and get processed).
We also (300+ employees) set up a claim for lack of notice period and got some ££ for this about a year later.
But yes a worrying time for staff and theyll likely be out of pocket for a period with likelihood out of a job too.
Hope stuffs back
Makes sense for administrators to pay employees otherwise they'd be off the moment they were appointment which would crash the value of the business.
Since 1st December 2020, HMRC are also ranked as secondary preferential creditors
I wonder if they were higher up the list previously.
I can answer that. They previously ranked equally with employees for the first £800 of arrears of pay and accrued untaken holiday as preferential. This was a long time ago.
The Enterprise Act in 2002 (apologies to any lawyers as I've not quoted the full legislative changes of the time and any oversimplification that follows😜) stripped HMRC of their preferential status and introduced the Prescribed Part which was a ring fenced fund for unsecured (last in line) creditors in which HMRC would share. The Prescribed Part is basically 20% of recoveries net of costs and preferential creditors (those employee claims above) up to £800k (back then £600k) before floating charge creditors get paid. A floating charge creditor is one with security over assets you can deal with in the normal course of business like stock.
In 2020 Crown preference was reintroduced ranking behind the employee claims but before the Prescribed Part for taxes that HMRC considers are collected by the company and held for them. The easiest example is PAYE where it is taken off an employee to give to HMRC. VAT is another tax caught. Corporation Tax is not because it is a tax on the company itself.
This article from 2020 sets out some of the issues as seen by the Insolvency trade body R3 as one view point. I am not offering a personal view here.
https://www.r3.org.uk/press-policy-and-research/r3-blog/more/29492/page/1/royal-assent-for-the-finance-bill-but-r3-s-opposition-to-crown-preference-continues/
It is fairly common that the Crown gets stretched harder than other creditors when things are difficult. They cannot put you on stop like your suppliers. This was one of the pro arguments for reintroduction. The flip side of course is they supply nothing to the business directly and someone who shipped a box of goods is now further down the pecking order.
The Prescribed Part comes out after HMRC.
So in practice by the time you're done with HMRC and costs there's a high chance that there's nothing for the Prescribed Part or the floating charge creditors (those with movable security).
Employees have another safety net if not transferred under TUPE because the government underwrites part of their claims and then claims in their place in the estate.
👍 Thank you for that
I had so much of that add - Qranc full fingers, shorty copy stem, sidewinders...
I don't know anything about retail, but I will bet that Mike Ashley wouldn't buy Wiggle for its stock. Dealing with property, workers, IP, this, that and the other...That'd be an expensive way to get stock. (And if the rumours are true, they may have a fuzzy idea of what stock they have...)
It’s not that they’re not doing a hard job and doing it well, it’s that they sure as hell know how to charge for that and manage to take their money when even the tax man can’t.
It’s difficult not to find it galling that a business can enter administration for two weeks and end up paying 60-70% of its value to the administrator leaving everyone else to squabble over the 30%
Getting out of a car crash is often more complicated than getting into it, it's true...
I ordered a set of pedals off crc on Wednesday. Order is listing as 'shipped' . Expectation is they'll arrive tomorrow if everything is ok.
Despite this temporary wobble, CRC have a great rep, internationally, even.
Goodwill, too.
Nice if that could transfer to a high street branch…quick repairs and the odd accessory.
Theres always post offices with excess space😊😊😊
Prices on a Few bits I'm watching have dropped again today, worth checking anything you're after
Anyone else having problems with the return portal not allowing you to select your country? I’m returning a couple of things before it’s too late and can’t get past entering my address on rebound. It’s currently only offering Christmas Island as my country!
@bentleywood I also see the "Christmas Island" problem. It is the only country I can select in the Returns portal so the return fails as the address isn't right.
Cynical "admin error" to reduce returns?
I am tempted to enter an address in the Christmas Islands anyway but not sure I want to gamble that on an expensive dropper going missing.
I have emailed Wiggle, lets see what they say.
"CX" is the ISO code for Christmas Island, sometimes "CX" is used as an abbreviation for "Cancelled" also.
Half of this thread is about people returning stuff.......are you the issue