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Just a thought...
Previously I would have considered Lynsky to build frames "to aspire to" for want of a better phrase but now they seem to be taking themselves firmly down market in order to produce cheapish frames which are getting heavily discounted. All this must be taking the temptation out of buying a regular lynsky for anyone in the market for a ti frame.
Obviously from a business perspective it makes good sense allround, Lynsky sell shedloads, on-one/ragley (I know, not the same company) get nicely made ti frames and we, the punters, get a bargain.
But at what point will the phrase "made by Lynsky" end up being a by-word for "made by that company which knocks out cheap ti frames by the shedload"?
Although I've said before I've an irrational dislike of on-one as a company this isn't a dig at them per se, it's more of an observation that if something desirable is made freely available then it loses part of what made it special in the first place...
(Don't let this post fool you into thinking I'm not eyeing up a ti 456 by the way - it's only cos I want to see the new whippety/greyhound thing that I've not yet taken the plunge...)
Audi Volkswagen Skoda
Fair point, it might work the other way then.
The "cheap and cheerful" brand ends up getting better whilst the "special" brand remains top-end and no-one really links the two. (Other than to say "Skodas? good cars, made by VW...") Except skoda aren't advertised as such, it's common knowledge but there's a careful seperation of brand identity.
The Ragleys and On Ones will be a slightly more rough and ready frame, with less details while a Lynskey will be a super smooth, many man hour, high detail piece of perfection. One doesn't affect the other, they're aiming at different markets and Lynskey will pride themselves on still being able to make something really smart and I think the Audi/VW comparison is a pretty good one. Also, it might be Lynskey's main market stake in the UK. I suspect in the US they'll be a lot more common, relatively speaking, while you won't see a Ragley anywhere.
And you can't see the difference between brand and product of a Lynskey frame and an On-one frame? you'll be making a big $$$$ mistake.
Anybody who drives a Skoda and thinks they'll get the same kudos as an Audi driver is wearing the Emperor's new clothes.
that's only true if a, you buy into that whole 'brand' bullshit, and b, give a shit what anyone else thinks.
If you [strike]ride [/strike] love an On-One or Ragley you're allowed here. Otherwise get your coat 😈
are we all stupid enough to think that a lynksey frame and an on-one/shedfire or whatever are the same?
well they are all Ti tubes welded together by the same people! Ti grades probably all the same, probably the same grade welding...what is your point?
Rover 75 isn't an M3, is it? Made of metal, 4 wheels (usually), a pillock for a driver (at least round here). It really is the case of [i]it's what you can do with it[/i].
Don't remember rovers being made in the BM factory! yes I am sure the Lynskey frames have the shamrock etc and the welds might be dressed a bit more but ultimatley it's just a branding excercise and also volume discount. I very much doubt that many on-ones or Ragleys will be sold in the US...probably some kind of clause in the agreement
Audi drivers only gain the kudos of driving a cocks car.
definitley!
So are we calling £1000+ hard tail frames low end now?
Im f*cked with my £975 full FS bike then!
Cocks car?
Dialynx Sport 20v....
However, modern ones I tend to agree with your sentiment
well you make the choice, on-one ti456 with RS revs for £1000 or a frame only, made in the same factory by the same people for £1000, oh and a 'better' brand name.
As an owner of two of the frames (456 and sportive) I really don't think any less of the frames because of offers. And the frames are not skimped on weld quality or attention to detail.
It does make other brands look expensive, and as with any deep cut offer, if its repeated too often then customers (esp stingy Yorkshiremen like meself) will not buy UNLESS there is an offer on.
my point is they just cant be the same because it would devalue the brand which was the original point wasn't it?
the differences maybe small and subtle but differences none the less (pure speculation on my part but i suspect i'm right....cue brant!)
CHB- it's not that they're skimped. You're still paying a not-insignificant amount of money. It's just I think a genuine lynskey will have more time spent on it to get every detail just perfect.
Most aluminium frames are made in Taiwan in either Merida or Giant factories, right? Spesh is made by Giant, does it make it rubbish?
nope they're all good frames, just like paying £500 for a 853 steel frame when Merlin bang them out for £300, crap name, good frame. A VX220 is a good version of an Elise but I would rather have the Lotus!
if i was to say to you then that the 456 or whippet thing could be made in the Uk instead of at the lynskey factory would you turn round and say "oh shit drop in quality" possibly
rolf and benag, I think you are both exactly correct!
Some folk put more kudos onto brands like Merlin, litespeed etc and are willing to pay a premium for that.
Lynskey is a funny brand in its own right, I havn't really made my mind up about them. Their own frame designs (MTB and 29er) don't look as good for UK as the on-one (and ragley?) designed ones. Their road frames are exquisite, but I for the price I think I would might the kudos of IF or Moots?
Specifically on welds and attention to detail. There are no weld imperfections on either of my frames or any of the other PX ti frames i have seen. It is known that the dropouts are a cheaper version (slab cut Ti instead of fab cowled dropouts.
The weld quality is much better than either the Rock Lobster Ti that I have, or any Airborne frames that I ever saw when Halfords sold them.
I suppose in somethingion what I am saying is they are all good but let someone else buy it new and take the depreciation hit, then swoop in and pick up the seconhand bargain! or something. Can't really argue about this as I don't have any of them, but would be happy owning any of them.
Happily I design for both Ragley and Lynskey, and have BIG plans for forthcoming frames for both brands.
My current Ragley Ti frame does exactly what I want it to, and is at the pricepoint that I want it to be at.
The Lynskey Ridgeline LT likewise.
I've got some lunatic plans for a forthcoming Ragley frame that will implement the more ludicrous aspects of Lynskey production capabilities, and similarly have been working on some Lynskey products that will bring new aspects there as well.
Spesh is made by Giant, does it make it rubbish?
Yes that is rubbish as Speccy's are made by Marida.
Had an interesting debate with a chap at work who was spouting that an XACD Ti frame from the far east at $700 (shipped!) was just as good as the "rip off" Litespeeds and Lynskeys that they also built...He was put right in short order and a quick run down of the stages of Ti production so he and the others know where the difference in cost and quality came in.
For me a Ti frame is about long life, nice ride and no rust. Weld integrity (from proper prep, cleaning and welding processes that all take time and money) So the cosmetic finish is an after thought and if I can save some £££ because its not polished / hand waxed / decal'd thats fine.
Wish I had not just got a work bonus as the OO Ti29er deal is crazy!
SSP
Had an interesting debate with a chap at work who was spouting that an XACD Ti frame from the far east at $700 (shipped!) was just as good as the "rip off" Litespeeds and Lynskeys that they also built...He was put right in short order and a quick run down of the stages of Ti production so he and the others know where the difference in cost and quality came in.
Sounds like a real thriller - good thing you put him in his place.
but I for the price I think I would might the kudos of IF or Moots?
Do people really buy bikes for their 'kudos'?
Are they by Merida? I was told some time ago it was Giant by a Giant rep...
The question still remains - why spend £2.5k on a Moot if you are a regular rider with regular skills? Will you tell the difference? Will you really?
Do people really buy bikes for their 'kudos'?
The question still remains - why spend £2.5k on a Moot if you are a regular rider with regular skills? Will you tell the difference? Will you really?
We live in a society where we can express our personalities and preferences through the choice of consumer goods we purchase and the way we relate to them.
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or
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etc
Oh, and...
[url= http://www.shedfire.com/2009/07/24/ragley-dropout-with-bullets/ ]Ragley devaluing Lynskey?[/url]
Bear arts all the time. Was in there the other week sampling some fine brews.
my dad is starting to think the only reason I go back to see him is so I can stock up on their beer.
But the tesco value lager will be horrid by comparison.
A more valid comparison would be choosing to spend twice as much on beer that tasted almost identical, but that came in a fancier looking bottle.
brant are you making a Jones-esque frame?
The Audi/Skoda - thing. Kudos. I think you mean 'perceived value'. Part of driving a higher brand is perception, you feel arrived, better with yourself, infront of your compatriots and neighbours.
The downside is people overspend to achieve this.
I can see both camps. Levis are good jeans but for others they are happier in Evisu etc.
I have a 1996 Obed made by some bloke called Lynskey (at least his "signature" is on the frame). Welds are immaculate as is alignment but because it is a low-end Litespeed it is all non-butted tube with no fancy ovalisation. Consequently it is a bit more flexy in the wrong places than it would ideally be. Made to a price, see. And slab dropouts. Still sweet to look at (and ride) and much better finish than cheap Ti frames like Airborne, that I've seen. It would have cost 1100 for the frame in 1996, so not that cheap but less than other frames in the Litespeed range. You'd probably have a better bike if they'd used fancier tubes and rougher welds but I'm not sure if it would be as "cheap". Of course an 1100 quid steel frame might be best of all as you could spend all that money on labour rather than expensive to manipulate tube.
HTTP404 - MemberAnd you can't see the difference between brand and product of a Lynskey frame and an On-one frame? you'll be making a big $$$$ mistake.
Anybody who drives a Skoda and thinks they'll get the same kudos as an Audi driver is wearing the Emperor's new clothes.
Damn right, I rive a skoda cos the build quality is just as good for half the price. All the cocks who used to drive BMWs now drive Audis "so's they don't get tarnished with the BMW brush"
grumm from experience all beer tends to taste the same after about 15 0f em
everything tends to look fancier after about 2 of em
lol @ the snobbery on this thread 😀
My perspective on this, based on no hard evidence whatsoever, is that Lynskey is a not a well known brand in the UK with sweet FA market share even within the niche of American Ti builders they seem to have less market presence than Seven, Serrota, Merlin etc.
I would have though the risks of brand dilution in the UK is small and revenue dilution even smaller - it is even possible that building frames for on-one and Ragley is subsidising their US market -although this model seems unlikely in a small volume company where I would not have thought there are excesses of production capacity.
If Lynskey are also doing this in the US then my theory is ****ed.
I seriously (dont laugh) looked at buying the prev Gen-Audi TT.
[b][u]Its cheap for a good reason.[/u][/b]
I think people who buy Audi's thinking they are getting a superior product are misleading themselves. They are buying higher-quality interior trim. Same with the VW Golf mkIV. People thought it was superior quality/reliability to the Focus....why?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
perceived value
And for those [i]same[/i] perceived values - people also buy Titanium frames.
It is known that the dropouts are a cheaper version (slab cut Ti instead of fab cowled dropouts.
Funny you should say that. Whenever I'm out riding my £350 Ti frame, my enjoyment is always spoiled knowing I only have slab cut Ti drop-outs. I just know that cowled drop-outs would make me a much better rider, that having Lynskey stamped on the side of the tubes would make women swoon at my feet and that "Moots" is really short-hand for "I have an enormous penis".
druidh - exactly !
druidh, preaching to the converted mate! Thats why I have the Planet X frames and NOT the Moots or IF one! The PX frames have the important details, ie tube quality, weld quality, ovalised down tube etc, and skimp (if you can call it skimping?) on some of the pretty details that add a lot of machining cost.
druidh, how come your ti frame was £350?
* Bought at source
* No "brand" premium
* Favourable exchange rate
Ah, I looked into this but I didnt know which one to go with (through fleabay) as it some claimed to be 'for premium brands' and there was the fear that there were QC failures. How did you source? I might go down this route partly out of interest but also....if you can specify your own angles there could be the chance of a ti Chameleon 😯
A quick search on ebay finds [url= http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Titanium-Mountain-bike-frame-18-disc-V-mount-UK_W0QQitemZ300331206568QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR?hash=item45ed2287a8&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A30 ]this[/url]. Looks identical to mine. Price has changed a fair bit in the intervening 18 or so months. What you have to ask yourself is "am I saving enough to account for any risks". For instance, you can buy (basically) the same frame from Van Nicholas for €799.
Are Van Nicholas a "low quality" supplier? It'll be interesting to see where the new Ti On Ones are coming from.
I did have a link to a seller who could supply custom angles. I'll see if I can dig it out.
Yes please Druidh 
Agree on risk but then again, if its crash-damage a warranty doesnt replace so really just defects.
druid the new ones are from lynskey