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Zokes you say you've not ridden it for 2 years perhaps you should try it again for a more recent perspective?
No need to. Last time I was there, they had just started on replacing most of the old karrimor descents, and hand just completed the abomination that's the Pink Heiffer's replacment. When I enquired as to what the plans were, the (name withheld so as not to incriminate him) guy basically apologised and said H&S and 'erosion' were the main reasons behind it, with a view that they'd make more money if it was easier so more less-experienced riders could ride there. He doesn't ride there any more either...
Hmmm..so your opinion is based on what somebody told you?..it's changed in 2 years but not worsened I'd say!...just ride it yourself then you'll know for sure eh?
I'd had thought I could trust that 'somebody's' viewpoint. They had day-to-day experience of the place.... I'm sure it's still enjoyable once in a while, but just a shadow of its former self.
A group of the 'clent duffers' are up @ CYB this weekend for Votchy's post 40th weekend piss up. I've last ridden at CYB about 5 years ago so can't remember much /any of it. Who gives a ****, if it's not as pedaly / swoopy/ gnarly/ jey as the other trails, it's a week end away riding bikes and drinking beer. And eating lard.
Cheers for the nod towards the pont Scentin trail too. We'll possibly give that a look see too.
it's a week end away riding bikes and drinking beer. And eating lard.
Amen to that!
To call pink heifer a signature descent is a bit of an overstatement IMO. it was pretty much a mess from about a week after it was built, owing to the fact it went down the fall line. the reason it was re-built was a combination of, soil erosion, the fact that after each and every heavy rainfall huge bits of it would tumble off down the hill side, and it would need shoring up everytime, the amount of traffic, and latterly safety. Zokes' obvious Rad skillz notwithstanding, people were getting hurt on it frequently enough to make it an issue. The same is the case for the Adamms bits, they just weren't sustainable given traffic levels. It's two bits out of miles and miles of trails which have largely remained unchanged.
To answer the OP, It's a fun day out, probably a bit harder technically from what you're used to, no maps needed, cafe, miles of trails without walkers, you'll have a blast.
I remember riding it back in the day, just after the first few sections of trail had been completed and pretty regular in those first few years. It was pretty ace back then. Of what is left up there now, I'd agree the MBR is the least changed and probably all that is worth doing. Its def nowhere near what it once was - and I'm normally all in favour of a bit of swoopy super fast singletrack.
I'd def prefer to go explore some off piste riding up there in preference to the sanitised trails now, but then I've had years of the welsh fir forest trail centre experiance and my opinion is tainted by that. They're all much of a muchness compared to the fantastic variety you can find with a map and/or a local.
Zokes' obvious Rad skillz
I can genuinely say you are the first person to say that about my riding /chuckles...
From my one trip to scotland, I found CyB as it was considerably easier than some sections up in the Staines, which are also obviously FC managed, so how parts can be classed as dangerous when there's plenty worse up there remains a mystery...
It's two bits out of miles and miles of trails which have largely remained unchanged.
Herman's gone too, I believe. Sure, change the tracks because they can't cope with the amount of traffic, and they've attracted near novices who can't cope with it. Why not just close all the singletrack and leave the fire roads open? That way noone gets hurt, there's no risk, and little erosion. FC lawyers can sleep happy. The regrettable way in which the trails were built by genuine hard work by a few, then taken over and 'managed' by the FC is frankly deplorable, but that's also for another thread, and was done to death at the time...
Herman's gone too, I believe. Sure, change the tracks because they can't cope with the amount of traffic, and they've attracted near novices who can't cope with it. Why not just close all the singletrack and leave the fire roads open? That way no one gets hurt, there's no risk, and little erosion. FC lawyers can sleep happy. The regrettable way in which the trails were built by genuine hard work by a few, then taken over and 'managed' by the FC is frankly deplorable, but that's also for another thread, and was done to death at the time...
That’s what happens when business takes the lead 😥
[i]and they've attracted near novices who can't cope with it.[/i]
It's not that at all, if that were the case, as you suggest the whole thing would pulled, and it hasn't. Pink Heifer was never sustainable. Ever, in a million years, and for CYB to continue it has to be sustainable, too much money was being channeled into that little bit of the trail, it wasn't built properly, and it was in the wrong place. Sure, it was fun, but it's gone, and it's never coming back.
Sofatester, right from the get go, CYB always has been, and always will be a business.
CYB is a trail centre & has man made trails, some bits are better than others & it has mainly fire road climbs.It's fun & I like it more than Penmachno,The Marin,'Degla or Nant....
You might love it or then again might hate it but until you ride it you won't know.....
Sure, it was fun, but it's gone, and it's never coming back.
You could apply that sentence to most of CyB...
right from the get go, CYB always has been, and always will be a business.
Fine. But that very change in business direction is what has driven a lot of locals who would come and ride every weekend, and spend money at the car park and cafe every weekend away. Instead, it's now attractive to people who drive 3+ hours to get there once in a blue moon. So sustainably, instead of attracting and keeping locals who don't drive far, it's focussing on pulling in lots of people who drive much further. How sustainable is that?
Most of the Pink Heiffer could have been fixed with decent drains cut [u]lower[/u], not higher (as some were) than the trail. Again, safety-wise, that section and the chute at the bottom of the Adams Family (probably the two most technical bits at CyB) were nothing compared to some of the trouble the uninitiated could get themselves into at Scottish FC sites. Risk of slithering slowly into a tree at CyB vs risk of finding oneself 10 feet in the air on the final descent at Inners or Ae. Looking at it as a beginner, I know which fate i'd prefer...
Sofatester, right from the get go, CYB always has been, and always will be a business.
Read again nickc and you will get what I mean. Yes, they where making money of mountain bikers back in the day(TM)but the difference was that is was run by the locals who wanted to promote there trails. Now it’s just about taking as much money per head as possible, the trails are just a handy magnet.
Agreed Zokes
Now everyone, lets take a chill pill and ride our bikes 😀
I first raced around there in an NWMBA race circa 1991 and loved the area even if I did have a massive crash which removed half my arse.... So I fit into the 'it's been sanitised' camp. When I started mountain biking again around '98 I was amazed that the pastime had come on so far, with trails like the Adams Family, or whatever those three good sections on KM were called being built specifically for mountain bikers. But these days CyB sums up British mountain biking.....ride cruisy trails with bikes with 6" of travel.
As an ex-guide, I noticed that Scottish and Welsh people to had access to decent trails were generally pretty good riders, whereas English riders who have grown up driving to trail centres and riding Shyte 46s or whatever were fuhucking awful. But as already mentioned, these people tend to spend the most money so I guess trails have to be matched to them....Joy.
Ah, now all becomes clear, You're all whiny and embittered 'cause it's not "like is was back in day, a local spot for local riders"...Why didn't you say so?
Ha...I lived around three hours away.
I dont like trail centres its just not my thing. However I went to CyB 2 months ago mid week got there midday and the place was deserted there were just 2 other cars in the car park at midday. I think us 4 more than doubled the MTBrs that day unless everyone turns up in the evening. The staff in the caff and bike shop looked tottaly bored and glad to see someone.
I have to grit my teeth in saying it but it was fun in a predictable way a quick giggle downhill tempered by the knowledge that there is a sodding fireroad climb to come. Is there anything more soul destroying than winding up a gravel road through pine monoculture.
We stayed in Blaenau Festshitholeiniog for the night and hit Snowdon early next morning didnt quite get to summit because we ran out of time and got totally soaked but enjoyed it immensley.
CyB is good fun, go there without any expectations and its a laugh. I found most of the trails to be entertaining, love pins and needles.
But yes a lot of the trails can be just blasted on a decent FS, kind of point and shoot stuff. Fun however but anyone used to there would get a nasty shock riding in the peak and other natural places.
I have to grit my teeth in saying it but it was fun in a predictable way a quick giggle downhill tempered by the knowledge that there is a sodding fireroad climb to come.
which you pound up either to beat your mates or because you know there's a sweet bit of singletrack up ahead, don't you?
Is there anything more soul destroying than winding up a gravel road through pine monoculture.
Give me fireroads over arguments about whether one trail centre is better than another 🙂
Is there anything more soul destroying than winding up a gravel road through pine monoculture.
I can think of plenty of things more soul-destroying. At least you are out on your bike. Bloody hell some people love to moan don't they.
Is there anything more [b]soul destroying[/b] than winding up a gravel road through pine monoculture[b]?[/b]
Yeah, working in a Hackney jobcentre.
Anyway, I like CYB. Maybe it was better, but it's still not shite.
Dr Dolittle - MemberIs there anything more soul destroying than winding up a gravel road through pine monoculture?
Yeah, working in a Hackney jobcentre.
Anyway, I like CYB. Maybe it was better, but it's still not shit
Didnt say it was shite didnt say it used to be better because I couldnt say
but given the choice between spending 3 1/2 hours going round a trail centre or 3 hours grunting up Snowdon followed by half an hour of non stop downhill that nearly made me wee myself 20 times I know which I would have
Didnt say it was shite didnt say it used to be better because I couldnt say
Didn't say you said it was shite, just said it wasn't shite. Don't know if it is shite now compared to before I rode it for the first time a few months back when it wasn't shite. Who knows whether it is shite or not? If it is shite I like shite trail centres...end of.
CyB is good fun, go there without any expectations and its a laugh.
Agreed, but when the original CyB trails gave such high expectations, why water it down? I have high expectations of CyB because it used to deserve them, not because other trail centres made me think CyB should be good, but (I say again) because CyB deserved them in its own right, and WAS one of the best in the UK. As Scotland upped the ante, wales took two steps back with the 'improvements' at CyB. That's why I moan, and it's why I shall continue to do so.
CyB was treated with great indifference by the FC up until the point some cynical middle-manager bureaucrat thought they could turn it into a cash cow. They 'redeveloped' the trails, build a new shiny trail centre that's a useless shape, put a poncy cafe in it with appalling service and worse food, and sat there and waited for the BMW and Audi 4x4 drivers to come flocking to see 'the countryside TM'. In order to do this, they turfed out the very people who'd made the place a viable business opportunity without even giving them first shout at the cafe franchise.
As for the trails? Meh. I'm sure they're enjoyable to most. My gripe is it used to be much better and was unnecessarily and unimaginatively meddled with, when a little more thought could have preserved and improved what was effectively a historic step in mountain biking in the UK, instead of trampling it under smooth 1.5-track which might as well be tarmac for all the challenge it represents. Hell, the FC even had a go at trying to stop the secret cafe in the woods from selling cakes and tea to monopolise the business further..
[/b]put a poncy cafe in it with appalling service and [b]worse food,
Agreed here, the food is shite.
I remember going my first time to CYB and riding all the trails over successive weekend. I can't remember anything particularly technical and I was a far worse rider then. I went again after the renewals and it was okish again.
For me its
The Lakes
The Peak
Drumlanrigg
Dalbeatie
then the rest
But I live in Canada now do I don't really give a **** anymore, theres better, gnarlier descents within 5 mins of my fornt door. You're welcome to come and check them out
Zokes, I am not a BMW/Audi driver and I spend lots of time in the 'real countryside' - and I thought it was great. I did it with a few mates, some of whom don't bike that much, including my gf, who found the MBR actually a bit too tough. Perhaps I should have berated her and explained how easy it actually is compared to the glory days of the past.
I can see that there perhaps should have been more consultation and attempts to keep in some of the more challenging elements, but I think the level of negativity you display is way over the top. It's still a great facility for biking, just obviously not to your taste any more. I don't think it's that unreasonable to make trails that the vast majority of people will enjoy and many will still find challenging in places, rather than appealing just to an elite few. I would say it still compares favourably to pretty much any trail centre I have been to except Kirroughtree.
Given the number of trails there, a 'proper' black run would be nice though.
Still going... can see everyones' points but still agreeing with Zokes on this one.
Theres no doubt in my mind that most of the UK trail centre have been made more mass-market in the last five years.
The style of trail has changed too, from a more technical micro terrain to lovely smooth wiggly bmx tracks in the woods that go up and down a bit as they go along. Theres also more emphasis on jumps and drops than there were in certain locations.
IMO CyB remains the most technical of the welsh trail centres but has been sanitised since the early days to satisfy the aforementioned mass market.
I've got no problem per-se with trail centres. In the depths of winter, you can't beat getting away from the mud and getting some quality riding in, but for me in general its much less satisfying than 'natural trails' - whatever they are.
Going mass market will just force those riders that don't find the technical challenege they're after back to what they used to do - ride the wilder places.
who found the MBR actually a bit too tough
/Bangs head against wall/
I've said that the MBR is the least changed, with the most notable exception being what was possibly the best descent at CyB being removed (Pink Heiffer). So...... Take the rest of the MBR as an example, and that's a bit more like what the rest of the place used to be. For the best feel, Snap Crackle and Pop, R74 and Flightpath are all still there on the other side under the re-branded Red Bull (now Tarw). Now compare those bits to what's replaced 1) The Pink Heiffer, 2) The Adams family, 3) Herman, and you will either see where I'm coming from, or I'm never going to get the point across.
Whilst I accept that erosion was a problem on some of those descents, the main issue was water erosion that could easily have been fixed with some proper repairs and drainage. The main reason that most were changed was H&S. As I've said before, you could get yourself into much more serious trouble as a beginner at most red routes of the the more recently built 7 Staines trails. So why dumb down one centre because of "'elf 'n' safety innit", whilst making man-made jumps, drops and obstacles such as those found on the final descents at Inners and Ae? Mountain biking [i]is[/i] a dangerous sport - that's why most of us do it. Best not go outside then.....
Snap crackle and pop are a shadow of what they were before they were armoured, but that was a good while ago.
/Bangs head against wall/I've said that the MBR is the least changed, with the most notable exception being what was possibly the best descent at CyB being removed (Pink Heiffer). So...... Take the rest of the MBR as an example, and that's a bit more like what the rest of the place used to be. For the best feel, Snap Crackle and Pop, R74 and Flightpath are all still there on the other side under the re-branded Red Bull (now Tarw). Now compare those bits to what's replaced 1) The Pink Heiffer, 2) The Adams family, 3) Herman, and you will either see where I'm coming from, or I'm never going to get the point across.
Yeah but why does it all have to be like the MBR for it to be any good? What's wrong with a bit of variety? My gf loved the nice smooth, swoopy bits, and I enjoyed them as a contrast to the techy sections. Maybe you're not going fast enough? 😛
I will let you know next week what I think, me and a few fellow members of the Clent Duffers (tm) are going as part of my 40th celebrations, we will be armed with 5" full sussers and a sense of humour, can't wait to get going 😀
this thread has made me want to go back
After having said last year, following a day in the Peak District, that I would never go to a Welsh centre again, I've been to CyB twice this year.
Last Friday we did half the Tarw (rode straight up to Flightpath and came back down, missing out all the fireroad stuff) then did The Beast (missing out the stupid fireroad climb by taking a left just after the cafe and getting straight to Gomez.
Yes, bits have been sanitised but most was excellent. Pink Heifer and Big Dug are great. For max singletrack action, add Dream Time into the loop as well, but this requires map reading skills, combined with looking at the posts.
When you get to the point of saying to yourself "Oh No - not another fast rocky technical downhill section" you know there's enough good stuff.
theres a walking trail that runs from above big doug to the fire road 🙂
Votchy, you don't need big bikes. I did it on a singlespeeded Soul. Perfect. And Pete Sampras won his first Wimbledon when I was 40.
I hope your not encouraging people to ride on footpaths Jedi? 😉
im not encouraging anyone, just pointing it out 🙂
I did some walking between Big Dug and Gomez though. But it wasn't on a footpath. 🙁
BigJohn - we aren't proper mtb'ers though, we all only have 1 do everything on it bike each
wait a sec, am i reading this thread right? herman, pink heifer and the adams family trails have gone? :/
Gone, or are unrecognisable from what they once were.
Votchy - I'm not and so do I
Richtea - All still there and still worth riding.
Yeah if only I had more than one bike, then people wouldn't laugh at me on internet forums when I ride on the tarmac like surface of CyB on my 6" travel Pitch.