[Closed] New Forestry Commission trails!

I'm full of surprises. I'd also go as far as saying I am full of shit.

On this occasion though apart from you including it a bi-annual event where people stop at the local Petrol station to fill up and buy a packet of smarties.. I cant see it generating £4million for the local economy.

Its not Value for money is it?

[i]This ambitious project is known as LIVIA (Lower Irwell Valley Improvement Area), and has already created 97 hectares of community woodland in the Agecroft area of Salford, including an outdoor classroom, climbing boulders and play area, new foot and cycle paths and considerable habitat enhancement.[/i]

More than just a bike trail then. If it's anything like the Newlands project I'm working on the woodland will be producing coppice timber for wood fired boilers.

Any trail is a good trail.

I think we are very lucky at the moment in that most of the powers that be see trails developments as money generating schemes for the future. Peanuts* investment=visitors=money spent in area.

*Look at a Council Execs pay £250k + car and expenses

Thats the kiddie, class 😉

As for the trail, itd better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!
if you don't like it do something better:-)

Buzzlightyear - Member

Perhaps a bit too wide in places so it looks like a wheelchair access track!

Most trails look like that when freshly built. Withing 12 months there'll be a narrow "riding" trail through that and 12 months after that the verges will encroach and cover the unridden bit. looks good.

I'd rather they built commercial/industrial offices there TBH.

bellend.

No, it's a very sensible suggestion. You could run the HtN course down the fire escapes.

yeah, also we're short of office/industrial parks in Manchester. Far too much green space.

Groan… Money gets spent beautifying some long neglected waste land and you have a moan.

Let’s dig it all up and install some industrial units.

[img] [/img]

That would be much better wouldn’t it? Prat.

cool! I normally commute the other side of the river (when it's not [b][i]too[/i][/b] muddy), will have to start crossing over when I get to clifton junction. Clifton to forest bank is pretty boring anyway.

Its a brownfield site IN Manchester.

We are surrounded by numerous Moors, Peaks etc etc.

Create offices and offer corperation tax-breaks/etc etc not smooth noddy trails around a brownfield site.

Great for you Terra and Harry' for your bi-annual HTN event and your local rides but I'm question its VFM content to the area and the taxpayer.

Sorry if I dont have my tongue up your ass.

If Im brutally honest, I'd rather have it return to nature and people just to follow/create their own natural trails than spend millions to please a few.

I'd rather they built commercial/industrial offices there TBH

"I'd rather have it return to nature and people just to follow/create their own natural trail"

An understandable sentiment that I sympathise with, but it doesn't address:

1. need for entry-level trails to increase participation - a govt objective and good for the industry too.
2. need for winter-proof trails
3. dealing with erosion due to popularity
4. fun purpose-built features like tabletops and berms which don't form naturally

We can have a mix of both purpose-built and naturally evolved trails can't we?

conclusive proof that there should be some form of test before folk are allowed to breed.

Thats the problem with mountain bike forums. You do get people who religiously stick to one line of thinking. Are you hands and feet webbed by chance?

Can you create natural trails? Surely creating something means it isn't natural..

Its a brownfield site IN Manchester.

...with a MASSIVE catchment area for users of trails such as these. Perhaps that's the whole point.
To please you further, there are proposals for a red-grade trail and a skills area adjacent to this site.

Go on then Hora, give us your breakdown of investment v return for this site. You've clearly done all the sums.

there are proposals for a red-grade trail and a skills area adjacent to this site.

Out of tHora's league ;-P

How do you quantify value for money?

Look at this.

[img] [/img]

I bet it cost a packet but it generates no income. Why not rip it out and replace it with something useful eh?

The FC have got a 99 year lease on that land (Insufficient infrastructure for industrial premises, too polluted for agriculture and housing) so the locals now have a protected semi wild habitat including educational facilities to enjoy until something like 2106. Not bad VFM.

Sensible, fact based, logical arguments - all wasted on tHora. The man who is a legend in his own lunchtime.

Next you'll either do something daft like try and buy stuff off him or, worse still, waste your breath and time offering him advice.

😉

hora - Member

Rural? Its next to Prestwich isnt it? How many millions is that going to cost? Its greater Manchester. Go out a few miles for rural- its all around.

Crackers. Sorry, I think taxpayers money could be better spent.

FC have a person whos sole job it is to get funding for these projects, possibly 1/3rd might have come from the NW dev. 1/3rd from Lottery etc, only a small portion of it might be tax payers money. Consider that all the machine built sections at Gisburn only cost approx £135K, then the investment in these trails on nice open ground with no rollercoaster gullies, probably wasn't that much. You have to also consider that it is much easier to get development money for places like urban Manchester, than more affluent areas. Think yourself lucky that NW dev. have a vision to bring MTB adrenaline seakers to Lancs. With the Quarries, Gisburn and other projects in the pipeline, I think people will come from the South for a weekend. 🙂

Cheeky Monkey what you are on about?

I'll reserve judgment and wait for it to be heaving then. Thats the true indicator for VFM with visitors overspilling into the local pubs, cafes, businesses etc etc.

Why post up a sculpture? Is it in Manchester BTW?
(That is actually quite nice).

"I think people will come from the South for a weekend."

Would love too, but too busy riding all the quality trails down here 😉

If the arguement is VFM for tax payers money then I think this type of development is far better VFM than some of the governments numerous dubious schemes (not even going to bother to name them)

If I could pick where my taxes get spent community projects like this would be right up there near the top

Now. Why don't we have some development like this in the New Forest / Farley Mount. Southampton are is crying out for something like this. I'd happily volunteer to help the FC.

The sculpture is in some people's eyes a complete waste of money. That particulcar one is in Iceland. It is a great big chunk of stainless steel and granite in the middle of nowhere.

These however [url= http://www.irwellsculpturetrail.co.uk/ ]Irwell Sculpture Trail[/url] run right up through the valley and I bet that they cost more than the Waterdale development.

VFM?

I think that they are.

We went to see these. We didnt just arrive, look at the sculptures, jump back in the car and head straight back out. We SPENT money in the area/made a few hours of it.

Do you see where Im coming from? This, to me is VFM to an area. An investment that helps pull in and retain visitors.

[img] [/img]

I'd like to be proved wrong and see many many people using this area in Prestwich.

From memory, (distant)- Im sure there was a similar attempt in the Mersey Valley/greater Manchester area that was over-run by chavs nobbling people on bikes? We rode past it once on a ride from Jacksons Boat.

so you see no benefit at all in a facility that might encourage a large number of people to get off their behinds and go for a ride on their bikes without having to load up the car and drive all the way to the hills?

Or is it only worth it if those people stay in a local hotel/eat in the caff/buy a bag of sweets from the shop?

The Forestry Commission say...

[i]2 NOVEMBER 2009 NEWS RELEASE No: 13027

New £3.8 million community woodland underway in Bury

Work has started in the North West of England to transform Waterdale and Drinkwater Parks in Bury, as part of one of the country’s biggest green regeneration programmes.

A team of specialists from the Forestry Commission is working on former industrial land between Prestwich and Clifton, to construct a green makeover that will improve the local environment for nearby communities, where recreational facilities have been virtually non-existent.

This newly created community woodland will include 12 kilometres of multi-purpose leisure trails, wetland wildlife habitats and fishing ponds. The whole site, which lies between Agecroft Road and the M60 to the west of Bury Road, is equivalent to more than 78 football pitches.

Work on the major multi-purpose waymarked trails for walkers, cyclists and horse riders is due to start next month and continue until March.

There are also plans to build a new mountain bike track, to illuminate the viaduct's 13 arches that run through the site and to introduce information signage on the area's history.

Over £3.8 million worth of funding is being injected in to the 71-hectare Bury woodland over the next 20 years via the Forestry Commission and Northwest Regional Development Agency (NWDA) partnership programme, Newlands.

The new woodland is part of a larger project to create a major community woodland across Salford, Manchester and Bury.

This project, the Lower Irwell Valley Improvement Area (LIVIA), has already created 97 hectares of community woodland in the Agecroft area of Salford, and has received funding to the tune of £4.75 million via the Newlands Programme.

Richard Topley from the Forestry Commission, who is a Project Manager for Newlands at the LIVIA Bury site, says:

“It’s a real pleasure watching the site changing on an almost daily basis. When we’ve finished I think local people are going to be really pleased with the results. There will be plenty of opportunities for everyone to enjoy the outdoors, whether it’s cycling, running, fishing or horse-riding.

”The project also includes a 20-year management plan so people can be confident that this new woodland will be kept in good condition.”

The Forestry Commission will erect new barriers and gates around the perimeter to prevent access from joy riders.

LIVIA is one of seven Newlands projects currently being developed in England's Northwest.

Already, as part of LIVIA and Newlands, multi-purpose waymarked trails for walkers and cyclists, an outdoor amphitheatre and play areas have been created near the Clifton Green Estate in north Salford.

Newlands is a £59million NWDA-funded land regeneration scheme, which is rejuvenating around 900 hectares of the region's brownfield land to encourage economic growth, while creating new opportunities for leisure and recreation.

Newlands, which stands for New Economic Environments via Woodlands, is a partnership scheme involving the NWDA and the Forestry Commission.

A number of local partners, including Groundwork Manchester, Salford and Trafford and Bury Council are also involved in the project.

As a gateway into Greater Manchester, LIVIA will significantly enhance the land alongside the M60, which dissects the site, making the area more attractive to visitors and investors, as well as increasing local land and property values.

Further information about LIVIA and other 'Newlands' projects is available at www.forestry.gov.uk/newlands and www.newlandsproject.co.uk

NOTES TO THE EDITORS

1. Images of work on the Bury Community Woodland are available by calling 01524-782086.

2. The capital investment from the Newlands programme (including long-term management funding) for the Lower Irwell Valley Improvement Area (LIVIA) is £4.75million.

3. A brownfield site is any land or premises that has previously been used and is not currently fully in use, although it may be partially occupied or utilised. It may also be vacant, derelict or contaminated. A brownfield site is not necessarily available for immediate use without intervention.

4.. Community Woodlands are multi-purpose open spaces that can be easily accessed by the local community, and can include a series of small woodlands, footpaths, cycle and bridleways, football pitches, wetland habitats and a wildflower meadow. Each site is designed in partnership with the local community to help improve and enhance the economic, environmental and social value of the local neighbourhood to work towards a sustainable environment for everyone.

5.. Woodland cover across the North West of England currently stands at just 6.5% compared with the national average of 8% and a European average of 33%.

6.. The Forestry Commission is the largest provider of countryside recreation in Britain, with responsibility for more than one million hectares (2.4 million acres) of forest, woodlands and open countryside. Its Northwest England Forest District covers the Lake District in Cumbria, the Forest of Bowland in Lancashire, Merseyside, Greater Manchester and Cheshire. The forests are managed for conservation, wildlife, landscape and recreation as well as providing a valuable source of timber.[/i]

and go for a ride on their bikes without having to load up the car and drive all the way to the hills?

Unless you are local, then yes you have to get in your car to get there. Thats the issue. Great for local users (minority really) but unless you can provide a wealth of facilities how are you going to attract people to make it a destination choice?

Like I said- its great news if you are local to the area but who is going to get into their car and go there unless there are other things to do beside, i,e. GoApe, cafe, visitors centre, twee-shops etc etc?

Families arent going to load up their car to drive round some trails on a brownfield site are they?

Like I said. Great for local riders.

We went to see these. We didnt just arrive, look at the sculptures, jump back in the car and head straight back out. We SPENT money in the area/made a few hours of it.

We didn't. We walked along the beach for an hour then drove home again. Why? The surrounding area is a craphole.

Like I said. Great for local riders.

Population of Greater Manchester in 2009 = 2,547,700.

Population of Bacup in 2009 = 12,736

Is Lee Quarry a waste of money too?

Great for local users (minority really)

oh FFS.

I can just imagine what Hora was like as a child. And nothing seems to have changed, except these days he's actually getting some attention. 🙂

I'm off, i've had enough of this and i've got work to do.

The new trails are ace. Fact. That is the important thing.

The way I read the above press release is that it is a huge urban redevelopment programme, the bike trails are almost incidental and 12km of trails like the ones pictured above will be a drop in the ocean of the £3.8m. Hora, putting destination visitors aside, do you think £120k out of this £3.8m would be better spend on 12km of bike trails or another sculpture?.

Is Lee Quarry a waste of money too?

I'm not going to answer that one otherwise I might be strung up by a fiery-mob.

A Manchester based one or a Bacup based one?

I've got some rope in the car.

I'm off, i've had enough of this and i've got work to do.

The new trails are ace. Fact. That is the important thing.

Too right 🙂

I gave a talk to the last IMBA conference about the difficulties faced by [volunteer] trail builders. In no particular order:

1. FE (whoops 😉
2. MTBers

The room went quiet, LOL.

Just look at this discussion, the one about folks riding Drumlarig (sp?) etc etc. No wonder we struggle to get anywhere and seem to achieve so little given the size, income and frequency of MTBing.

Funk 'em 😉

Harry - how long is the trail? As I'm thinking of taking my 7 year old nephew there at some point.
He loves mtbing and would like the humps.

it's not very long. It's not finished yet but even when it is it won't be huge.

Your nephew will love it (and so will you).

In a nice way, Terra/Harry. IF you lived 5-10miles away from this proposed development would you go and ride there at the weekend?

If they built that in my area- yes I'd ride it but I wouldn't especially make the journey.

Anyway.

He'd love it.

Leave the car in Philips Park and ride down through the old car park into Waterdale. Mail me (in profile) and i'll send you a map. The flat trails are all finished, the singletrack with the berms and jumps is a work in progress and doesn't link up properly yet.

There are no way markers, but the site is small and open enough to explore without getting lost.

Hora. I don't live near it.

hora - Member

If they built that in my area- yes I'd ride it but I wouldn't especially make the journey.

Hora, you live closer to that trail than Harry does. Get on your bike and ride it instead of driving somewhere

it's practically in my back garden 😉