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my lbs has told me not to buy xtr brakes from rose bikes as they are oem and would be inferior to those bought in the uk is this true
OEM xtr? Inferior? Doubt it to both.
No.
Well, probably not
Yes they are oem but no they are not inferior. XTR oem is identical to that sold in the UK in boxes.
Exactly the same, just miles cheaper.
You're not supposed to tell your LBS when buying stuff online.
If they notice the new brakes on your bike just say you found them.
You'll probably want to swap the levers round, but other than that identical.
So they're either liars or just stupid
2 good reasons never to darken their door again
Any shimano kit I have bought from rose has been proper boxed retail kit, I had heard that shimano had started to take a dim view of retailers selling oem kit.
Been I exactly the same spot with deore brakes
£110 online vs £180in shop
Quite happy to get my bits in sealed bags vs fancy
Grey boxes
Brakes have been faultless 😉
Do it
The only issue being you have to go back to rose for any warrenty issue, lukily shimano are pretty reliable in that department.
my lbs has told me not to buy xtr brakes from rose bikes as they are oem and would be inferior to those bought in the uk is this true
What utter utter utter crap!!!! They will be exactly the same, the only difference is how they're packed back at where they're made. Some will get put into those nice boxes and some that will be fitted onto bikes won't as it's waste of packaging. Simple as that. Your LBS doesn't want you buy from Rose and understandable as they want your business. It is a pain when customers buy their kit off-line and then when anything goes wrong or something isn't quite right, they expect you as their LBS to "assist" you putting it right. It's about loyalty to your LBS really. We all understand that in these times when spending is tight and people, even me buy off line but bear a thought when things go wrong that's all.
MSP - Member
Any shimano kit I have bought from rose has been proper boxed retail kit, I had heard that shimano had started to take a dim view of retailers selling oem kit.
You can buy oem in "proper" retail boxes.
It really is very simple. The stuff you get from Rose may or may not be oem, may or may. It have instructions and may be of a slightly different spec. It will be cheaper. Accessing warranty will require return via
rose and could take a while.
The stuff you get from that LBS is / should be proper retails spec, will have an easy to access warranty and can easily be set up and fitted by you LBS.
You pay your money and take you choice.
Try to resist the urge to go back to the LbS. with a problem when you buy from Rose. Or expect to pay for them to sort it out.
I do wish people would stop doing down their lbs on here. It is not big, funny or clever.
And no, I don't work for one or own one, but do value the ones that exist. Give them a break - they are not trying to:
- rip you off
- lie
- murder your children
But are trying to provide a good and reliable service and stay in business. Let's face it being honest and saying:
'well, you could buy this from Rose bikes for 70% of the price and it will all be fine, but don't expect us to sort out the warranty' is a difficult message to deliver!
Rant over!
It really is very simple. The stuff you get from Rose may or may not be oem, may or may. It have instructions and [s]may[/s] if Shimano won't be of a slightly different spec.
FTFY
Got an xtr bb of them recently, uber cheap.
OEM kit is often supplied without some of the "bits" that come in the full retail box. For instance, retail XTR calipers come with two sets of pads (Metal and Sintered) the yellow pad spacer, the wee cable cutting blocks and an instruction leaflet. Often, the OEM kit will just be the caliper in a plastic bag. However, the caliper is identical.
[i]Some[/i] kit is quite different though. Specializde used to have (maybe still do) a custom Shimano crank/BB setup which wasn't available off the shelf.
Rockshox and Fox both do OEM forks which aren't available as a full retail package (you won't find them on their websites).
The LBS could have been lying or mistaken.
Give them a break - they are not trying to:
- rip you
- lie
- murder your children
of course they're lying
what druidh said - there are odd oem products which i guess are supplied to a spec to meet a price point
bought (knowingly) some oem brakes and unlike the retail didn't come with olives - on other hand have bought oem stuff and supplier has basically put all the bits and bobs you need in the box, sometimes more
as to op - i presume if you bought a new bike off them it would come with inferior oem brakes?
personally i'd never ask lbs* to match an internet price - they offer a service and deserve a living - *i'm not including the likes of evans in that statement
The problem with Rose is that buying at Madison's best trade price is still more expensive in some cases or only cheaper by a few quid not leaving much room or any profit to match Rose's prices. Mathcing prices of U.K on line retialers is pretty easy, I do it but I have to take a reduced margin. Trying to compete with Rose bikes is impossible. Is the German distributor that much cheaper, I will have to find out but I don't speak German.
The problem with [s]Rose[/s] Madison is that buying at Madison's best trade price is still more expensive in some case or only cheaper by a few quid not leaving much room or any profit to match Rose's prices
FTFY
bm0p700f - Member
The problem with Rose is that buying at Madison's best trade price is still more expensive in some cases or only cheaper by a few quid not leaving much room or any profit to match Rose's prices. Mathcing prices of U.K on line retialers is pretty easy, I do it but I have to take a reduced margin. Trying to compete with Rose bikes is impossible. Is the German distributor that much cheaper, I will have to find out but I don't speak German.
They don't get them from Germany. Not hard to find out where they do get them from.
Utter boll@cks ,for example I could go to my local car dealer and pay top dollar for a air filter element or I could go to eurocarparts and buy the exact same filter for most likely 2/3rds the price .
Its the same part doing the same job just not in the fancy packaging.
As stated by others there may not be some of the other little extras in there but the calipers will be the same,otherwise I'd imagine on Shimano's support site there would have to be data listing the differences between oem and normal retail stuff for service and parts replacement.
Okay, I have no idea where Rose Bikes get their parts from. HOwever very cheap parts are often OEM ones. Are they inferior? Well, depends what you mean - they'll be the same levers and calipers as you'd get in a retail box, but there may be parts missing or different, missing instructions, and they may have been set up for a specific manufacturer not general-purpose kits.
So your LBS is right in that respect.
But really, why even say that kind of thing to them?
Vanilla83, where do they get them from then? I would like to know.
Vanilla83, where do they get them from then? I would like to know.
The word "inferior" is wrong.
Less bits, but certainly not inferior.
bencooper why say that kind of thing to them? i buy most of my parts from my lbs and was asking for advice i wasnt expecting them to match that price and wont be asking them to fix if they go wrong but i dont expect to be told blatant lies
No they should not have told you lies. I certainly would not tell my customer that kind of lie certainly as I have never ordered of Rose bikes as it marginally cheaper to buy through Madsion or CSN most of the time.
Rose will buy direct from Shimano not Madison, or possibly the German distributor?
I'd have thought the product would be identical but you will have zero come back in the UK if they go wrong, so send back to Rose for them to fettle.
If I was your lbs I'd be charging you extra to fit/bleed them than if you bought them from me, obviously if you feel comfortable doing this then all well and good. Xtr don't come with 2 sets of pads unless this is a recent thing, had mine since May bought in the UK from my LBS.
I know moneys tight in this day and age but maybe we should see the bigger picture. If we support our local UK shops and help keep these guys in business then the wheels keep turning. They earn money and pay tax there by taking/keeping someone in a job and funding those unlucky enough to be out of work. Worth a few extra quid I'd say?
And no, I don't work for one or own one, but do value the ones that exist. Give them a break - they are not trying to:
- rip you off
- lie
- murder your children
I used to work for one. We didn't lie, murder or rip people off as we also sold mail order and sold OEM stuff too, but we did find that most of the surrounding LBS's were wildly inaccurate with their info and often ripped people off.
SOME LBS's (and they should be held up as examples) are REALLY helpful, know their stuff and are relatively cheap too. They're worth paying a little extra to keep alive. But I can't see any reason for people not to whine about their poor service - that's just keeping quiet for no reason.
However I would say any LBS that performs cheap/free work for anyone like a tune-up or fixing a few minor issues, is shooting themselves in the foot. We used to, mainly because almost all of our profits came from online sales and when I wasn't packing/ordering new stuff I had nothing to do and would tweak anything that came in with a customer. But it certainly wasn't commonplace.
[i]Vanilla83, where do they get them from then? I would like to know.[/i]
Rose have their own bike brand which would mean buying in bulk from parts manufacturers.
olie i would love to see the bigger picture but i dont understand the brakes are from germany and last time i checked they are a developed country so how can a company there sell me brakes for £275 and make a profit and a company here wants to sell me the same brakes for £400 and wont offer discount in these tough times maybe the lbs should not put such a markup on products or source them elsewhere
The problem is we cannot sourse anywhere else bar madsion or CSN and CSN are not the offical distributor.
Most shops do not have the resources to buy of Shimano direct thats if Shimano will talk to such a shop. CRC/Wiggle probably get better discounts of Madison than smaller outfits or have another source which takes more mnoney than I have.
As for shops and markups - charging RRP's would be nice but many of my customers know the internet exists. It is better to make 5% of something than 100% on nothing. If you keep your costs down then it becomes viable.
The brakes from Germany will probably have ben bought direct from Shimano useing the excuse of own brand bikes and therefore getting extra discount from Shimano. Rose will be making full mark up whilst undercutting your LBS. Your LBS can't go direct to Shimano because they don't have a bike brand they can pretend to furnish with XTR brakes and therefor ehave to pay full wholesale prices.
The bigger picture is keeping people in work not why they are slightly more expensive.
Also I'd guess that if you asked nicely your LBS will probably do some kind of discount, especially if you are a regular/dedicated customer.
A good LBS is worth its weight in gold and you get out what you put in.
If you feel your LBS is no good then thats fine, vote with your feet but don't go asking them for advice or help if your not prepared to spend your money with them.
Yes, that's the thing - Rose and your LBS probably make similar profit margins. The LBS maybe a little more, but they have expensive retail premises to pay for.
Well rose probably get bulks of OEM (much cheaper than after market) directly from shimano, or even from the Taiwanese manufacturer. And so does CRC and wiggle. Then why don't you buy XT at your LBS, as it will cost you the same as XTR from rose, perform [s]very badly[/s] exactly the same and everyone is a winner. I don't get this using the internet to buy that you won't be able to buy otherwise. Maybe that is why world is in the mess we're in.
Plus what he says about LBS, they only are trying to make a living. Not kill your children nor reap you off. Most of the difference in price between CRC and the like and LBS actually is NOT going into the LBS staff's wages.
Most of the difference in price between CRC and the like and LBS actually is NOT going into the LBS staff's wages.
[Hollow laugh] 🙂
Running a bike business is great fun, but a license to print money it is not. I went to a Mike Burrows talk years ago, and Mike's theory is that the reason why no big multinational has got into bikes* is that simply there's no money in it.
*Okay, Honda have dabbled and Pnasonic make s few folders, but that's about it.
Xtr don't come with 2 sets of pads unless this is a recent thing, had mine since May bought in the UK from my LBS.
Olie, I'd go and ask your LBS what they've done with your pads.
Having worked somewhere that got the top dealer rate from Madison, I'd be very surprised from the prices if Rose, Wiggle, CRC etc were going through the same channels as your LBS to get their stuff. They were selling stuff and posting it cheaper than we were getting it, before VAT. I know for a lot of stuff they could lean on Madison or other importers to shift a lot of boxes, but there's a limit, and they have to make a reasonable profit, or they wouldn't be doing it. There was a Spanish outfit grey-importing shimano and campag stuff a few years back. Madison whinged and had Shimano stop supplying them. Not sure that would be so easy these days.
FWIW, I ordered some XTR bbs for myself from Rose about 18 months back, they came in boxes. I ordered another plus a cassette recently which arrived in plastic bags. They're the same things, and unlikely to need a warranty, so I'm happy that I got them cheap. I'd have got them cheap somewhere anyway, and I'm not that fussed about protecting Madison's position in the UK.
I wish there was a level playing field with parts supply for all shops CRC, Rose and the LBS so the LBS can compete properly. Lack of competition in the distributor industry keeps Madisons prices high. I am surprised it is not against some sort of competition rules. Schawble is one of the few bike brands that I can think of were their is genuine competition between wholesalers as there are so many of them.
But as Rose e.t.c can go to shimano direct or the manufactuer in Taiwan then the LBS has a problem. However the LBS can do things the internet can't but that only for customers who need parts fitting or are not sure on what parts to buy.
There really is not much money in running a bike shop however that is not why I do it.
i use my lbs as much as possible spares and servicing even though i could do servicing myself but i also feel its better to make 5% of something than %100 of nothing
That's true to an extent, as long as the shop staff have plenty of spare time on their hands. If not, better to concentrate on more profitable customers.
better to concentrate on more profitable customers.
That's fair enough but don't come whining on MTB forums when we go buying out £XK bikes online.
Deal, as long as you don't come whining on MTB forums when your LBS wants to make a living 🙂
Actually, I'm not fussed. I buy stuff from CRC and Wiggle when I need odd items in a hurry for a repair or bike build. What you pay me for is my skills and knowledge, and the more unusual parts I can source. Honestly, any LBS who tries to take on the big mail order retailers directly will lose. There's a place for bike shops, there's a place for mail order - the two should complement each other.
One day ~ down the line there will be no more LBS if we as cyclists don't support them - spend money in them etc.
Yes I to use other on-line retailers mentioned - but also whenever possible support my LBS.
In the future I want to be able to get my wheel's trued and occasional service etc. Not to mention the bike fit service.
Yes it would be great to always get the online price at our LBS but they have different cost's and rates and need to pay there staff and mechanics etc.