[Closed] Murder by gyrocopter

Thanks stoner. Must be tricky to prove intent though as TJ points out

*remains on fence*

I imagine if witnesses can testify to a deliberate/unneccesary change in direction or acceleration then the proof of intent to cause harm will be made more clear.

still loving the conclusions being jumped to on this thread, it's entertaining stuff, like

Presumably the point is that the pilot (?) of the gyrocopter intended to injure him if not kill him,

Presumably he's inoccent until a court of law deems otherwise, no?

"Murder by gyrocopter"

Not a bad way to go mind, he could have been ripped apart by a pack of wild dogs while still alive as middle class w@nkers watched on in glee.

Nick - the "point" was that if the cps have chosen to prosecute for murder then they must at least have some evidence of intention to injure. Drawing inferences from actions of the police and the law in which they operate is hardly "jumping to conclusions". Where he actually DID intend to injure will be upto the court but no-one here has tried and hung him yet. You're seeing lynching where there isnt one Im afraid.

Not a bad way to go mind

Of course not aracer - or at least not deliberatly

[i]"foxes aren't killed by the dogs at all nowadays"[/i]

Of course not, now when they're captured they're given a voucher to a michelin star restaurant for them and their foxy ladyfriend.

They've never had it so good.

They dont even run full tilt these days...

I wish all the bloody foxes would sod off back to the large estates rather than sniffing around my son's rabbit hutches.Anyway, they like the exercise in a hunt really, keeps 'em from doing bingo adverts.

Can gyrocopters take off from a treadmill ?

(sorry for flippant post but SOMEONE had to do it)

Depends if there's a hunt supporter running along the tradmill in front of them.

well they do have something of a history of being a bit mad...

[img] [/img]

I can't ever recall hearing of a manslaughter charge being upgraded to murder

The charge of murder could simply be a bookmark - so to speak

Nice thread - apart from the intervention of the league against cruel sports.

To give another view - if you don't hunt them with dogs you can always gas them, snare them or shoot them - none of which is a perticularly nice way to go. As to the hunt feeding the foxes up to hunt - that's just silly. Foxes eat partridges, pheasants and ducks - all of which are reared by the same lot that are chasing the foxes (to be shot at a later stage obviously) If you encouraged fox numbers they would wipe out all the birds and start onto their next best choice - baby lambs. Now I'm a bit of a hardened country boy but even I get a little emotional at the the thought of all those poor little baby fluffy lambs being eaten by nasty old foxes. It's why we country types put up with the one eyed in-bred upper classes chasing the little buggers around the country side - It keeps the numbers down.

Anyway back to the thread - being minced by a gyrocoptor is not a nice way to go.

Hugo - many proven cases of hunts feeding foxes to ensure a supply for hunting.

[i]many proven cases of hunts feeding foxes to ensure a supply for hunting. [/i]

off you go TJ and come back when you've got some links please.

I did it last time we had this debate - do I have to do so again?

If they were hunting spaniels or shetland ponys I'd have a problem with them but foxes are fundamentally vicious predators theat have a nasty tendancy to go into a killing frenzy when exposed to contained animals. If they were smart they'd have learned to run faster by now - F*** em 🙂

Nice to see another view from hugo rune

I seem to recall a conservation trust in Essex banned hunting on their land a few years before the law was introduced. They then found that the numbers of rare birds on their land was reducing apparently due to the increase in foxes taking them. The trust brought in a couple of marksmen to try and get the foxes, but after a month, they hadn't successfully shot one.

This is all from memory, can't find you sources.

I accept that fox hunting was cruel, but so are a lot of the alternatives, which may not be as "effective" at controlling numbers. And foxes will take small lambs, free range poultry etc when given a chance. I believe that there was a valid reason to keep it as an effective method of pest control. It also provided some jobs in the rural community for people who worked for the hunts. It wasn't just about the one eyed inbreds charging about in red coats.

And *some* surveys showed that more than 50% of the population weren't in favour of the ban - it wasn't that straight forward.

What was criminal was the amount of parliamentary time that was wasted by the government trying to get the law to go through - even though it is full of holes and incompetently drafted - given the lack of parliamentary time and scrutiny given to things like financial regulation, foreign wars, civil liberties etc etc.

I voted the incompetent buffoons in in 97 thinking a change was needed. The hunting law was the first time I realised what a mistake I'd made.

The hunting issue isn't about animal welfare, it's another classic case of patheticly misjudged class warfare. Swadey's post makes a good point that such a vast amount of time was put in to this, making it a far more emotive issue than it really needs to be, as a way of placating the left wing of the Labour party as Bliar and co rode roughshod over everything it stood for.

Also, looking at the pics of the chap who was killed in this incident, I'd hardly say he was some "braying toff" as I'm sure the antis would like to portay anyone involved with hunting.

"Even some among the hunting fraternity admit that some hunts use artificial earths and leave out animal carcasses to ensure a plentiful fox population. 'A few hunts do it and I have to say that I disapprove of it totally,' said Janet George, co-founder of the Countryside Action Network. 'There is no need to encourage them to breed. They will breed anywhere anyway.'

Some pro-hunters blame the creation of artificial earths on farmers seeking to control their fox populations. But a spokesman for the National Farmers' Union said this was unlikely. 'I would be amazed if farmers were involved. If hunts are using artificial earths for foxes, that would anger farmers,' he said"
[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/feb/17/hunting.ruralaffairs [/url]

[url] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1341954/Beaufort-Hunt-broke-rules-on-fox-breeding.html [/url]

[url] http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/terence-blacker/foxhunting-a-twisted-tale-of-country-folk-714707.html [/url]

I have farmers amongst my family and they told me this was a regular practice. It is a simple fact also that hunts d not control fox numbers anyway - the numbers they kill are insignificant cmpared to the total number and a predator species such as foxes will allways expand to the maximum population the prey species can support.

It is not a class issue for me CFH - although I agree with you it is for many. Its a simple moral proposition. Killing animals for fun is immoral.

This argument can run and run and unfortunately[b] both sides[/b] use such ridiculous and easily disproved and discredited arguments that it can never easily be resolved.

But a spokesman for the National Farmers' Union said this was unlikely. 'I would be amazed if farmers were involved. If hunts are using artificial earths for foxes, that would anger farmers,' he said"

you forgot to remove that bit

I didn't forget to remove that bit - it shws that the hunts are not hunting for the good of the farmers.

Ex-Hunt Sab here.

Always makes me laugh the rubbish spouted about sabs. Take it from me, there are thugs on both sides. However in the 10 years I went out I saw far more sabs hospitalised than hunters.

As for this gyrocopter, I don't know what to make of it, but the parallels with the two sabs who were killed in the 90s by hunt supporters are striking. Somehow I doubt the end result will be the same though (no charges were brought against the hunt supporters).

I can understand why people don't want hunting to carry on, likewise I can see that being hunted is realistically no worse than being say run over, or dying of mange, or because you're just shagged out.

is there any chance some of the hunt sabs could hang around our garden to stop our neighbors fluffy chickens being tore apart by lovely fluffy cuddly foxes

(ex crustie who moved to live in the countryside and actually saw sense)

I'm half expecting John Nettles to appear and for the whole thing to turn out to be some kind of Midsommer murders escapade full of incest, a long lost father and death by gyrocopter...

I saw far more sabs hospitalised than hunters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1850703.stm - Standing in front of a cantering horse is going to get you injured.

there are thugs on both sides

Either way, if there is any truth in the allegation that led to this arrest, then I think the sad, pathetic sabs have sunk to a new low.

You will not prevent that without eradication of the foxes - thats how predator / prey relationships work. The predator population expands to meet the food supply - remove some foxes and the neighbouring ones breed more and move into the territory.

So by artificially increasing the prey species ( fluffy lambs / chickens ) we increase the predator population.

Hunts take a very small % of the fox population and will never eradicate them - indeed that is not thier aim

Somewhere there is a nice film clip of a couple of huntsmen riding at a group of women protesting about hunts and whipping them.

[url= https://www0.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2005/02/305092.html?c=on ]Some stills of huntsmen attacking protestors[/url]

CFH - shall we declare a draw and move on to something more interesting?

Probably best, TJ, as there's no way anyone will ever agree on something that really is rather trivial in the general scheme of things!

Back to the origins of the post, I think.

I've been in one of those crazy things. They're vile! Thing is, I really can't see what could have happened to lead to a murder charge unless there was deliberate movement and/or intent to harm.

I like the gyro in the Bond films. rocket launchers - its the only language those vermin undertand 😉

Like I said, it makes me laugh the rubbish that is spouted. You can choose to believe who you like. I've been there and seen it. But to counter your points:

1. How do you differentiate between a sab standing in front of a cantering horse and a hunter aiming at a sab at full gallop? The latter happened to me on numerous occasions.

2. I never once saw sabs with claw hammers or baseball bats, and I've been on some pretty hairy sabs. However it's not to say it didn't happen. What I would say is that any incidents like this were usually in response to a sab being deliberately maimed (or killed) by members of a hunt, usually the terrier men/supporters. It's probably not too far off the mark to say that in some parts of the country a war was being fought with many tit-for-tat attacks on both sides.

What you fail to acknowledge though is that a large majority of sabs, and indeed hunt members were perfectly peaceful and never got involved in any of this, it's just a pity the violence on both sides overshadows everything else.

Some stills of huntsmen attacking protestors

Fox hunting is cruel and unecessary - I much prefer a shotgun 😉

Fox hunting is cruel and unecessary - I much prefer a shotgun

Leaving out the emotive hunt issues, the giro was taxiing after landing to re-fuel. The victim was apparantly going to 'confront' the crew who had been annoying the hunt by flying over them, and suffered fatal head injuries. Now, as a girocopter's rotor is free-turning on a pivot allowing it to droop when at rest, you don't have to be a genius to work out that the dead bloke was running up to the 'copter in a paddy, and got clipped by the drooping rotor. That's why people boarding helicopters with turning rotors always duck down. I really can't see how this could stand up in court. You can only steer with the rudder, so it's not that manouverable. The 'copter had landing permission for that weekend, so was legally there. Anyone marching across an airfield towards a taxiing aircraft is a clot and an accident waiting to happen.

Where did you get that info from, CZ, and how are you so sure that the pilot didn't do anything malicious?

The info came from The Western Daily Press, and as I pointed out, a girocopter isn't a car, and isn't that manouverable on the ground. Of course the pilot may have steered towards the victim, but trying to use the rotor is very unpredictable, and I believe the pusher prop is usually shrouded these days for safety reasons. Think of it as a microlight with a free-turning unpowered rotor. Can you imagine trying to deliberatly hit someone with a microlight on the ground? They're pretty cumbersome when taxiing, it wouldn't be difficult to run out of it's way.

The report I read said the guy was hit with the tail rotor - or whatever it's called on one of those contraptions

Reading the news this morning, it appears that the incident was captured on video. Nasty, not something I would ever want to see, but should be some very useable evidence in court.

I believe the pusher prop is usually shrouded these days for safety reasons.