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by charging a fee & arranging insurance, aren't you just making yourself more likely to be sued?
Because then you end up with membership fees, hassle and arguments
the CTC charges £75 pa for organisers' liability cover, which I think is a bargain, and so cheap it would be foolish not to have it if there is any evidence of an organisation which might be held liable.
Possibly, but getting sued ten times while insured is going to work out a lot better than getting sued once if you're not insured.
And yeah, just going out riding with your mates could theoretically get you sued if circumstances conspired against you. But it's much harder to prove someone elses culpability if there's no obvious organisation behind the ride.
PP, appreciate your honest answer, maybe another way to ask the question would be are people's significant others, wives, families etc aware of and accepting of the potential consequences to them?
SFB I agree. BC charge something similar.
oop north. I was round your way yesterday afternoon 😀
by charging a fee & arranging insurance, aren't you just making yourself more likely to be sued?
Like an entity/admission that you are a formal/organised structure? An ambulance chaser could pursue I guess if a ad-hoc/new member was hurt and pressed for negligence (i.e. ride leader didnt warn of an impending obstacle on a ride??)
the CTC charges £75 pa for organisers' liability cover, which I think is a bargain, and so cheap it would be foolish not to have it if there is any evidence of an organisation which might be held liable.
Are you still insured when leading 30 bikers down a busy footpath on a Sunday afternoon in the Lake District? 😛
Most clubs have free trials so go for a ride with them, if they're rubbish then don't join up.
The whole liabilty thing is difficult to quantify. There is a very slight chance that, as an organiser, you might get sued for a huge amount of money. I've only heard of one successful suit where a roadie injured himself in a pile up. You could opt to ignore the possibility, or arrange some insurance to cover it.
Are you still insured when leading 30 bikers down a busy footpath on a Sunday afternoon in the Lake District?
the CTC allege not, but as such activity is not actually illegal I'd be interested to see it in court 🙂 I think it might be an unfair contract term.
The fee to CTC/BC is for more than just insurance though. Yes, that's the main benefit for YOU as a club/rider etc but it gives discounts at shops, the money goes to supporting cycling in general be it through local advocacy work or funding the Olympic Development Squad.
Most clubs (IME) have no real rigid structure, that's why occasional riders (who wouldn't otherwise pay up) are asked for a donation while the regular riders pay a yearly subscription.
An ambulance chaser could pursue I guess if a ad-hoc/new member was hurt and pressed for negligence
I recall someone on here - possibly the boggies but maybe not as I'm sure SFB would have mentioned it - who had a guy come along for a taster, refused to sign any disclaimers, refused to wear a helmet, fell off and injured himself, then sued. There was some talk that his "fall" may have been deliberate, in an attempt to put himself in a position where he *could* sue. Does anyone else recall that, or was I day dreaming?
I think 'clubs' are an anachronism, a throw-back to a pre-internet world with less instant communication.
Back in the day, you needed to be a member of a club to have a regular group of folk to chat to or ride with. regular meetings at a pub or clubhouse were the forums of their day.
Now they are required no more - you just search you local forums, get your banter, find out who is riding, where & when, then rock up if you fancy joining in.
Perhaps a better question would be: what purpose can forums aspire to & what should the "forum aim" be?
[paranoid mode]
So, how do we stand if someone puts a ride up on STW then? Is it a bunch of mates who met on the internet, or an organised ride that should be insured?
I have a Singletrack jersey, as a subsriber I get shop discounts, do I sue the ride organiser, or the mag/website?
[/paranoid mode]
So, how do we stand if someone puts a ride up on STW then?
DIdn;t Richpips cancel an event planned on the forum after legal advice about responsibilities?
I think 'clubs' are an anachronism, a throw-back to a pre-internet world with less instant communication
we found instant communication improved the club experience 🙂
I think 'clubs' are an anachronism, a throw-back to a pre-internet world with less instant communication.
Back in the day, you needed to be a member of a club to have a regular group of folk to chat to or ride with. regular meetings at a pub or clubhouse were the forums of their day.
Now they are required no more - you just search you local forums, get your banter, find out who is riding, where & when, then rock up if you fancy joining in.
Totally not the case for road riding - there are no forums where you can reliably get together a group of 20-30 people every Tuesday & Thursday night for example, or a bigger group on a Sunday, which several of our local clubs manage easily. When you get to competition, clubs are even more useful, road races, time trials etc. don't happen without someone doing all the boring club stuff, like notifying the police, getting insurance etc.
I imagine that for a lot of mountain bikers, riding in a small group is better, so you don't need to get a big gang of riders together. Many mountain bikers don't compete or organise competitions, which is where clubs really come into their own too. Also, a lot of people don't ride all that much, whereas roadies often train with others 2 or 3 times a week or more, which is way harder to organise on a regular basis in a smaller informal group than in a big club.
Joe
[i]Hora: To keep the undesirables out?[/i]
seems to be working :o)
If you classed it loosely as a 'meet' with no dedicated leader or route guide then you'd be safe. nbt- that would be interesting to hear which way that went.
Slightly OT: On a Sunday morning addiscombe ride we had two lads how up in tracksuit bottoms, no helmets etc, one had his rear brake hanging off and they more than kept up with us all. we even joked that it was all the running across the fields away from Police choppers that has kept them fit! 😆
do I sue the ride organiser, or the mag/website?
I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason.
hora - MemberLike an entity/admission that you are a formal/organised structure?
No - because as you have insurance there's something [financially] to go after
do I sue the ride organiser, or the mag/website?
I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason.
[i]I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason. [/i]
Not at all, they're not organised by the Magazine or staff so I can't see why liability would be an issue.
I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason
I believe Chipps is due to go on one soon......
having to be somewhere "on time" may have something to do with it also g
Sorry, I'm just playing Devils advocate here.
TBH I don't give a toss about insurance and all that crap. I think it's a sad reminder of the times when it boils down to covering your (legal) ass to organise a MTB ride. Truthfully, if it ever gets to the point where crap like that is taking over a group of mates organising a ride, I'll give it up and walk instead. I've done it before with other hobbies - If it gets too serious, I loose the enjoyment and jack it in. Really, that's why I generally avoid clubs - Too serious. 🙂
PP, I love you man
Uplink, regardless of insurance cover, there's always something to go for. Without insurance you could lose everything, your house, your bikes, any money you have etc.
Most people have experience of car insurance, where you would have cover,the other party would have cover, so your company deals with all the legalities on your behalf and extracts money from the other insurance company etc. If you were an unisured driver and someone drove into you, the state of play would be similar to this situation with a mountin biker vs an insured club, you would have no legal cover,so you would have to do all the legal work yourself, or pay for your own solicitor, who would extract money from the clubs insurer. If neither party were insured, you would do your legal stuff, but the other party would also be unable to refer it to his own insurer, so would have to defend the claim himself and cover any financial implications resulting.
I think MTBers have always been against organisation/structure etc, maybe it's a throwback to the days when it started when there was no governing body, no race licence, no fees and roadies looked down their nose at this new "sport".
Unfortunately the flipside of that is that there's no real voice when it comes to lobbying for access (unlike the very politically connected Ramblers Assoc, British Horse Society etc) so we get the thin end of the wedge.
years ago was president of a climbing club and every year the same old people complained about the annual fee - same people wanted huts booking -but didn't always turn up so we lost deposits, wanted a newsletter (pre web!) but weren't happy to pay for postage or copying, didn't understand why we declared our actual membership numbers to the BMC (British Mountaineering Council) so we had liability insurance- thankless task
i think in todays environment i'd think much more than twice about taking out people who casually turned up at the club meets - thats what we used to do and the liklehood of injury while climbing is a good deal less than out on an MTB
[url= http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=385 ]heres the BMC's current advice to clubs on liability and law [/url]
PP, I love you man
Hora that's twice you've said that now..... I ignored it the first time but I'm getting a tad concerned about you now....
😉
yes but hora has got standards - he's not prepared to pay for it - think he wants free love PP
Really, that's why I generally avoid clubs - Too serious.
you've ridden with us PP. The only serious we do is serious fun :o)
I believe Chipps is due to go on one soon......
really?? You mean he's a real person, not an STW myth like Chuck Norris ?
Whilst I can see the attraction to some of paid up club membership, I'm with Hora & PP.
I go riding cos I enjoy it. I don't want to be part of someone else's decision, I ride cos I like to, where I want to.
But then I've never enjoyed clubs and commitment to some nonsense about meeting on Thursdays and hosting whatever etc etc.
Uplink, regardless of insurance cover, there's always something to go for
not always so - at least anything worthwile
We had a £3k carpet ruined by a cleaning company [one man band] at the time our contents insurance didn't cover it so we went after the guy
Our solicitor told us that he had nothing worth chasing & it would cost us more than its worth.
I'm not knocking the idea of insuring groups etc. but I feel it sometimes makes them easy targets for ambulance chasers to mount speculative claims whereas without the ins. they may well not bother
but I feel it sometimes makes them easy targets for ambulance chasers to mount speculative claims
does anyone know of any such claims succeeding ?
If we started to charge a fee now, THT would just wither and die. It will carry on as it is.
PP, why is that so? To all intents and purposes the THT sound like a club, just free of charge.
Personally I pay £12 per annum for a club, most of the "club" rides I go on are Thursday night rides and a handful of Sunday rides (the rest of time it an impromptu ride elsewhere).
I'm not really what sure I get for my £12 as it's bu$$er all in the great scheme of things. I'm not too fussed about knowing TBH.
I guess your point is that some people will feel aggrieved at having to part with money whilst others are not too bothered with parting with a few quid?
EDIT: With the membership we get 10% discount for most of the local bike shops and 20% at Cotswolds, so the membership pays for it self within a few weeks/months.
I dont see the problem, as long as your membership fee gives you something back... be it a discount at LBS, transport once in a while, decent away trips or just access to fun & more rides (knowledge of places etc) does £20 really matter? same with any club you can be involved or not as much as you want!
you've ridden with us PP. The only serious we do is serious fun :o)
Indeed, and somewhere in this thread I said I'd join if I lived anywhere near you. I used the word 'generally' too 🙂
The only other exception I can think of is the Cheesy Riders in Bristol. And AFAIK they're free too....
PP, why is that so? To all intents and purposes the THT sound like a club, just free of charge.
THT was formed mainly from people not wanting to join the local club, myself included. That's the core of it, the reason THT exits and it works. It's been discussed and discounted many times,
🙂
Why don't you want to join a club?
I don't understand that sentiment. It commits you to nothing, just gives you more options, easier to arrange lifts if you need them, people to show you new rides, etc
Don't tell me it's because you have to pay for it, because it's such a small sum and is usually negated by the discounts that come with it.
Yes its 'only' 20quid. For anyone else its just something else that needs paying for ontop of bills.... Ontop of it supposed to be a hobby. Paying football subs? You have to play somewhere and usually that includes a coach.
The payers- would you be happy paying for access to natural singletrack in the future? 😉
Cadging a lift isnt free- you normally have to repay the compliment or give something for fuel. Im hoping you lifters do do this? 😉
The only time I'd join a formlised club would be if I was single (for girls) but then again, if I was single I'd rather pay match.com etc.
Its great meeting new people but I'd rather do this without a cost in a formal club structure with hierachy and base rules. I;d rather just ride in a loose-group.
Come the weekend Im normally ready to keel over with stress hence I like the idea of getting out there wherever without 'being ontime'
Why don't you want to join a club?
That's not what I said. You're reading things I haven't written.
[i]THT was formed mainly from people not wanting to join the [u]local club[/u][/i] (And I don't want to expand on that because I have nothing against them other than a difference of opinion and I'd imagine they have members reading this)
But in general I find 'clubs' a bit twee and anal. Sorry. I have tried a few.
THT is just a group of mates that needed a forum to keep track of what they were organising between them. A single thread on Bikemagic got too muddled. Other people have come along through various routes and added to the group in different ways. Ask anyone on a ride if it's a club, and you'll usually get "Errr no, not reaaaaly" as an answer. 🙂
THT was formed mainly from people not wanting to join the local club, myself included
What is quite funny is that my local club, we have discussed organising club shirts but overwhelming opinion is that this would be too organised and we would look too much like a "club", especially when venturing on cheeky off-piste routes in the New Forest.
Whilst you THT trollers all have laid-back-group-not-a-club standard shirts (which look quite good IMHO)!
Club vs. laid back group of riders... In the eye of beholder me thinks and what like minded people are looking to get out of riding with other folks. That's my conclusion anyways!
But in general I find 'clubs' a bit twee and anal.
Bog Trotters program:
Thu 24 Sep: knitting circle (also feat. crochet)
Fri 25 Sep: bum bandit big bonk - you know you want to!
Sat 26 Sep: footpath exploration day
Sun 27 Sep: High Street classic (handbags compulsory)
etc
😀
😉
The other problem, I suspect, is that mountainbikers tend to flit rather in how they ride and what they're into. All roadies basically do the same thing, although sometimes faster and without so much cake. A mountain bike club must tend to have breakaway factions, splitters, schisms and free-ride-lite cliques, whereas most road clubs will have been doing roughly the same thing every Sunday morning for decades.