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There should be a value to made in britain. But things like british leyland didn't do anything for the brand in the uk.
Should we include "soft products" like music and film?
"but they're Japanese really aren't they"
A fair point. AFAIK, the engine design is very Japanese. The body shells are often of European design. BUT, the all important assembly is by British hands, but using Japanese production management techniques.
I think the Jap (and German) management really understand that the cost of quality is the cost of non-conformance: they spend money to save money. While much of British management culture is concerned with wringing out profit by penny pinching, and quality suffers.
It's just a thought.
they're Japanese really
A fair point. AFAIK, the engine design is very Japanese. The body shells are often of European design. BUT, the all important assembly is by British hands, but using Japanese production management techniques.I think the Jap (and German) management really understand that the cost of quality is the cost of non-conformance: they spend money to save money. While much of British management culture is concerned with wringing out profit by penny pinching, and quality suffers.
It's just a thought.
Agreed, I think.
It doesn't really matter where the factory is, or what language the chaps on the factory floor speak. It's in culture, ethos and methodology where nationality comes through.
At the end of the day, a British professional has the same amount of fingers, toes, eyes and capacity for intelligence as any other - it just comes down to culture. So while Nissans might be built by SAFC supporting Mackems, they're very much Japanese cars.
Just as Cotic bikes are very British products of a very British company, despite being made in the Far East.
Should we include "soft products" like music and film?
Interesting question.
I used to work in software development for an internationally renowned British company. Digital media is supposedly an industry we're at the top of. But it was still run, at every level, with a culture of bodging and making do. The focus was always on the covering of daily inadequacies rather than on any long term sustainability.
Thankfully such an approach to "manufacture" can be masked when the end result isn't a physical entity, so it continues without the consumer really knowing.
I'm not saying my experience is to be taken as a typical industry-wide example. Though the well documented issues with chronic staff overtime and unsustainable stress levels that remain a key component of the industry suggest that it exists on a knife edge. I can't help but feel that if the industry doesn't start behaving a bit less... [i]British[/i] it runs the very real risk of being closed down once India and China have finally learnt everything they can from the outsourcing they've been taking on and decide to get in on the act themselves.
Perhaps it could well be quite telling that the UK currently does well in an industry where innovation can shine and dodgy production can be masked.
And that much of the surviving and thriving 'traditional' manufacture in the UK is under foreign management.
The Aussies are fanatical about products that a made in Aus, it seems to work as well, if you see the logo with 'proudly made in Australia', it makes me think that my $ are keeping someone busy and the country ticking along. [url= http://www.australianmade.com.au/consumer-site/ ]Aussie Made[/url]
I'm not fanatical about buying local but its nice to know you have the choice and its easy to spot what's been made in Austrlia
LandRover: I believe (and I've only been here a year) the main change was German (BMW) and US (Ford) management philosophy. Particularly the Project Management styles which allowed a better car to be delivered at lower cost/improved margins etc... and presumably taught a few people some new tricks.
Jaguar: I believe (and I've only been here a year) that leaving the Ford group and not having direct competition from other members of the Ford Premiere Auto' Group has allowed new Jag's to be more stylish and more sporting without clashing with other manufacturers in the PAG.
Just my tuppence - of course 🙂
Same in Canada.easygroove - Member
The Aussies are fanatical about products that a made in Aus, it seems to work as well, if you see the logo with 'proudly made in Australia'
Orange Bikes are a good example for this thread. They sell reasonably well in the UK, but have almost no presence anywhere else. Now - it could be argued that they are built for some sort UK-specific riding or conditions, but I'm not really believing that the UK can be so unique. So, isn't it the case that many folk but them because they are seen to be a UK brand (despite the percentage of UK manufacture being quite low)?
Just as Cotic bikes are very British products of a very British company, despite being made in the Far East.
But are they less British or the same than say an Orange 5 or any of the other Orange monocoque designs, that are designed and built in Halifax?
I am not knocking Cotic or Singular or any other UK based comapny that designs here for here but outsources manufacture abroad. But surely if something is actually fettled here as well as being designed here that is even better ie Hope and Orange
Should we include "soft products" like music and film?
Nope, I don't think we should, the sheer quantity of toss we (as a nation) produce in these Spheres far outweights the odd Diamond that turns up...
As for proper tangible products, I think the problem as already stated is consistent delivery of high quality, in significant quantity and at sensible prices, We can definately do it in the UK seemingly so long as we are managed by Japanese, German or Indian Parent companies...
I agree about the "Men in Sheds" point made a few posts back, we are still a good R&D nation but here again our ability to develop and realise products often falls down...
As a counterpoint though is it worth considering the idea that "Made in the Britain" or indeed "Made in" any other part of the world could well become an irrelavance over the coming decades?
In a "Globalised" world where communication and commerce are increasingly "Borderless" the point of origin for any product is enevitably less important thean the cost, function, qualitys and aesthetic appeal of it, I think perhaps as a manufacturing/producing nation we need to think about how we will fit into a world where a little Union flag stamp means far less to a consumer than a positive Which? review...
The truth is that blathering on about "Iconic British products" is hardly looking to the future, if we can't get beyond High value low Volume production we're knackered because the Far East and Asia have learned all our old tricks very quickly... as somebody else already said we can't rest on our laurels or live on past glories, we ain't making Spitfires anymore...
Not manufacturing per se, but we were world class in pharmaceuticals - many important medicines discovered here over the years. The modern era of drug discovery in fact began at Harlow with the ulcer drug tagamet in the 70s.
Sadly in the process of going down the tubes over the last 5 years, for various reasons, at least at the level of big pharma.
Both my bikes are Orange mountain bikes
(plus the one I sold last year).
Whenever I buy bike treats , they generally come from hope.
I work in engineering and too many of our jobs/skills& support roles are vanishing.
I also know some of the frames/parts are imported ,
but the way i see it , it's turnover for a British company.
I'm not naive or stupid enough to blindly buy British ,but If I can get what I need from this country then I do. And feel happier for it.
For me the "Made in Britain" tag has less to do with some level of perceived superior quality and more to do with keeping British people in jobs and the sustainability of the product.
I will happily pay a little more if I now it’s not being manufactured and shipped half way around the world just to satisfy my consumerist appetite for cheaper but no less quality goods. If there is a product made down the road that does the job as well, if not better, than something from the Far East even if there is a premium attached that’s my number one propriety.
After that if it’s designed here and then made elsewhere and shipped in at least there is a benefit of jobs being created/kept in the UK in the design element.
Then finally if I cannot find something of the right quality or the price makes the item uneconomical even allowing for a "British" premium then I will go that route.
So, isn't it the case that many folk but them because they are seen to be a UK brand
Personally I like Orange Fives because they're designed by people who understand what it is to spend three quarters of the riding year ploughing through Peak District gritty slop. There is attention to detail where it matters. Mud clearance, few pivots, easy to service, simple, clean lines with no mud traps, internal full outer cable routing; details often overlooked by those bike designers for whom a trail is a sun baked, dusty Californian hillside.
I don't like the Five [i]because[/i] it's welded together in the North of England - I like it because it's [i]designed to be ridden[/i] in the North of England, where I live. If I moved to Cali perhaps I'd prefer a Yeti?
Just as Cotic bikes are very British products of a very British company, despite being made in the Far East.
But are they less British or the same than say an Orange 5 or any of the other Orange monocoque designs, that are designed and built in Halifax? [...] But surely if something is actually fettled here as well as being designed here that is even better ie Hope and Orange
Yes, I suppose a Cotic is "less British" than a (Halifax made) Orange Five when compared side by side in a "British Off".
I think it's the "better" that's difficult to quantify. Often I've found British goods to be of poorer quality than equivalent German or Japanese goods. So I have to decide what my priorities are. I do know I really struggle to have patience with poor quality products - few things annoy me more than something not fit for purpose.
If better means a superior product, then fine. If it means supporting a UK workforce, fine. If it means less air miles etc then again, fine. If it means affordable, fine. Whatever you're looking for. I suppose as long as better isn't being used simply as a substitute for "not foreign", it's up to us all to decide.
I love my UK built Pashley! It's the only one I've ever seen here in Canada. It gets more looks and comments than anything I've owned before, including a flash sports car. 🙂
Sure it cost a bit more than a chinese made Electra, but I'll own it for decades.
I wholeheartedly agree with Senor J. I've got an Orange 5 liberally sprinkled with Hope stuff, partly because it's British, but mainly because I think they're among the best available (in the case of Hope, THE best). I've also got a Triumph Speed Triple (in orange!)which is as well built as any Japanese, German or Italian bike (maybe excepting Honda)and better priced than nearly everything comparible. I've been in manufacturing for 40 years and worked for British, Japanese, Dutch and US companies and I wish we valued our manufacturers as much as other companies do. In Holland for instance, a good shop floor engineer is quite happy to stay on the shop floor, not aspiring to be a manager as we are encouraged to do here at the first opportunity. This is beacuse he is well paid, valued and doesn't feel part of the 'Us and them' divide that is promoted here between office staff and 'workers'.
Triumph is a real success story. instead of chasing top speed and horsepower figures they build bikes that ride well in the real world. They are small enough to react to customer feedback and are bucking the general trend in growing sales of big bikes in a shrinking market.
Most other nations wouldn't even be having this discussion, US companies market very heavily on patriotism (only relatively recently has this failed in the auto market due to such poor quality inefficient products) and others have mentioned NZ, Canada, Germany etc
it just comes down to culture. So while Nissans might be built by SAFC supporting Mackems, they're very much Japanese cars
Although AFAIK they really got the ideas from Deming, who was an American (Out of the Crisis). But I think the concepts resonated with their Shinto culture. Chipps reported on very interesting tour of Shimano a some editions ago where the designer talked about the designs evolving toward perfection, like rocks are worn smooth in the stream.
I too work in bespoke software development and am faced the ongoing problem that no-one is interested in spending money on making the software stronger, better tested and more maintainable. Management will only fund work paid for by customers. And customers only want to pay for features.
Over time, the conceptual integrity of the software is lost as patches and features are added. It becomes unusable as a platform for further development. The entire asset, many man-years of effort and worth a few million pounds, becomes worthless. [paraphrasing Fred Brooks, who is the software equivalent of Deming]
I'm convinced the entire problem is nothing to do with software specifically, and everything to do with poorly trained management.
Great debate folks and very interesting views. We are a uk based manufacturing company, we direct export around the world as well as selling many products that leave these shores on other equipment. There are many companies like us in the UK servicing all sorts of sectors. These companies make products to be proud off that some would say are traditional engineering other very high tech but often very nich or specialist, they are used in some of the most sofisticated or dangerous production processes in the world. Making things is something to take pride in.
Cannot hide from the fact that many production jobs have been "offshored" but things will change and manufacturering be back here, it may not be the manufacturing we presently understand but it will be back. 3d printing anyone? take a look at that and let your imagination go.
Given that many companies are not british owned I prefer when possible to buy from companies that manufacture in the uk so there employees are paying taxes here. I'd sooner pay a bit more to know that some of it is making it's way back into the system (yes I know not everyone can do that).
Sorry to ramble on.
Let's remanufacture all the cheap products brought in from the East over the last 20 years, use all that raw material in a clever way.
Chipps reported on very interesting tour of Shimano a some editions ago where the designer talked about the designs evolving toward perfection, like rocks are worn smooth in the stream.
That article, and that very quote, sticks in my mind also.
the conceptual integrity of the software is lost as patches and features are added
How I know that pain.
This might be of interest to people in this thread:
Are Orange frames really made in Greetland? What about the P7 or any other of the frames that are tubes as opposed to fabrications.
I think the Orange hardtails are made overseas. Which is a pity.
Did you watch Evan Davies' TV programmes recently? He talked to tailor who had moved all his production to the far east. The labour cost made up quite a small fraction of the sale price. It seemed to me that the extra costs of UK production would not make a big increase in price.
Perhaps this is where Orange are with their Halifax made FS frames - the bikes cost a bit more but we value the "Made in Britain" label.
Buzz, thanks for reminding me that Honda Civics are made in Swindon. My 07 Honda Civic was the best car I've ever owned (build quality, reliability, fun, cheap to service, etc). The only car I ever regret getting rid of. I always think of it as a Japanese car but I'll try to remember in future it's actually a car made by a Japanese company in the UK.
I'm Irish and for historic reasons we purport to shun English stuff however...
You make the best TV in the world (no one comes close) produce a huge amount of the western worlds best music (obviously not the chart rubbish) and set many of the worlds fashion trends. In the arts and culture you are top of the pile. Your engineers and architects are world renown.
On the mtb front, reynolds tubing and english steel hardtails in general are weapons of choice in Ireland. Hope hubs are good value and well designed and everyone has some Endura clothing. And we all try get a Wales or Scotland trip in each year.
I don't know about made in Britain but I certainly like to know it's designed in Britain.
Having lived in the UK for 6 years,d your NHS is truly wonderful - treasure it. In Ireland we pay through the nose for healthcare.
A lot of what you do is world class - unfortunately that seems to include putting yourselves down. We Irish are very similar in that regard. We need to stop.
Nice post there, expressing much of what I feel.
I design and make wooden furniture in South London, using timber that mainly comes from old trees grown within about 40 miles of my workshop. Many of my clients love the fact that I can tell them where a tree grew and was felled. However, that's a bit of an aside...
[url= http://www.catchweasel.com ]Here if you're interested.[/url]
I've really tried to keep my mtb UK/European. There's a lot of Hope and Middleburn, a German frame, Swiss forks, Italian saddle etc. Without going for a Rohloff I can't find a European drivetrain. I believe there is a massive value in buying British and supporting an indigenous design and manufacturing industry. There is a sense of pride in making things - especially really good things.
That said, a lot of manufacturing work can be quite repetitive, but I'm pretty sure if you asked some of the remaining tool makers in Sheffield whether they wanted their current jobs or they'd prefer to work in a call centre I know what they'd say. A few posters have hinted at a crazy culture in the UK of pushing intelligent people away from getting their hands dirty. Schools encourage bright students towards academia and abstract city careers rather than towards high end vocational work. It's really short-sighted on so many levels.
I wish more people would invest in UK manufacturing. The 'savings' made by transferring overseas are illusory. Someone always pays. Greater global inequalities are no good for anyone. So, in a roundabout way, yes. Made in Britain does have meaning to me. I would always go for it first especially if it is, like Hope, the best you can buy.
Brooks saddles.
There's certainly a degree of kudos abroad with some of our tailoring and for sure our high-end shoemaking
I design and make wooden furniture in South London, using timber that mainly comes from old trees grown within about 40 miles of my workshop. Many of my clients love the fact that I can tell them where a tree grew and was felled. However, that's a bit of an aside...
Here if you're interested.
Wow, some great looking furniture there. I love the paperhound with the ears! But sadly it's way out of my furniture price range.
Saville Row suits
Bond Street jewellers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/may/18/english-wines-win-gold-medals
The 'made in..' sticker can just mean that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/europe/13prato.html?scp=1&sq=%22made%20in%20italy%22&st=cse
[i]Orange Five
best bike in the world .. nuff said.[/i]
Correct. As long as It's got a Hope pack on.
& all this bollix about 'yeah but you can get cheaper than an Orange 5' is just that, bollix, cos you can also get dearer which (IMO) may not be as good.
This of course is a biased opinion cos I'm an old git (55 on Monday) & am currently nicely warmed by some Bruichladdie Port Charlotte, also 'made in Britain' 😕
I had a conversation with my father in law, who own a Giant Anthem X1 and never rides it off road. He stated that the Giant has to be far superior to the Orange as they (Giant) have millions to invest, so how could Orange possibly compete or build a product which even comes close? My experience of throwing my Orange down the hills of Calderdale on a bi-weekly basis says different.
What's your experience of throwing Giant Trances (or whatever the equivalent model might be) down the hills of Calderdale?
I stand to be corrected but I'm sort of with your FiL- I'd think that for fairly complex things involving lots of prototyping and iterations then a big company like Giant, Trek etc. are likely to come up with a better design than Orange or, say, Brant.
I'm not an engineer though. And I'm not having a go at Orange or Brant, I think they both do what they do very well but somethings are maybe going to be done better by a bigger company.
In 2010 manufacturing accounted for about 12% of our GDP versus financial services at 9%. As has been mentioned on this thread we are more of a low volume high tech manufacturer. Good article [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/rogerbootle/7604386/British-manufacturing-is-bigger-than-you-think-and-its-likely-to-grow.html ]here[/url]
Another great one on this subject is on the Apple iPhone which a Chinese export success and damages the US trade balance despite being an American product. [url= http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/economics/apples-iphone-reflects-distortion-in-us-china-trade-balance/story-e6frg926-1225972071136 ]here[/url]
Personally I like to see a "Made in Britain" sticker ,and in the current difficult times makes me feel that I'm doing a little to try and help along our industry.
Obviously its not always possible to "Buy British" and as stated previously quite often the superior product is of foreign manufacture.
Just recently due to a off(thanks to the new metrolink tram that there putting in Droylesden,Grrr..) I have had to invest in some new bib knicks,had a look round at whats available and after reading some good reviews have bought some "Lusso 3/4 Roubaix Bib Knicks",made in Britain (only about 10miles away from where I live) and seem to be of a comparable quality to the Santini Bib knicks there replacing.
Have a few pairs of handmade British shoes ,Barker and Loake and a Brooks Saddle and Middleburn cranks too.
I agree with so many points here, "made in..." doesn't do it for me, but what does is when it is a product that someone local has put his passion heart and soul into making the very best they can. I think companys like Hope Orange Enigma and lots of others try to and I am happy to pay equal or a bit more to know someone with passion and soul has made it the very best they can and it is equal or better to the competition. Reward those who put the effort in especially if they are local. What is wrong with having passion in design and quality like ferrari alfa blah blah maybe not as reliable as a jap car but so much more rewarding, and I find that with all elements of engineering and design and am happy that a good deal of beatufil and quality products still comes from the UK
Is the concensus that people will buy foreign because its cheaper ,if it was a quality UK produced and designed product people would pay that little extra to buy british?
I think there is a certain amount of genius behind the TF PUSH. Take some thing mass produced, rip the guts out and put better ones in.
Anyone know where the PUSH internals are made though?
PUSH = USA
bedrock - Member'Made in the UK'...by a Polish worker...for a foreign owned company.
Nothing like a random comment to get me interested. Which company is this then?
How about Rolls Royce cars.
Watched one of those megafactories episodes and a fair few Poles worked on the cars for their German owners in the UK factory.
I for one work in manufacturing and tbh the decline in our "kudos" has been there for about 50 years.
Apart from the odd niche company the desire for most "British" people isn`t to make anything of any worth as there is little money to be made in manufacturing almost everything.
[b]buzz-lightyear[/b]
Did you watch Evan Davies' TV programmes recently?
I didn't. Sounds interesting.
[b]compositepro[/b]
Is the concensus that people will buy foreign because its cheaper ,if it was a quality UK produced and designed product people would pay that little extra to buy british?
I don't know if a consensus has been formed yet. Your question is a bit leading - what are you comparing that quality UK produced and designed product against? Your scenario suggests that we're comparing a quality UK product with an average foreign product, which doesn't really offer any sort of conclusion.
If it's two products of equal concept and quality; two aesthetically and functionally identical products, at the same price, one with a Union Jack sticker and one with a made in China sticker, then I think it's likely most people from around the world would go with the British product.
For Brits they'd probably do it out of a feeling of patriotism, to supporting their own economy, and generally because it would seem like common sense. For those elsewhere around the world it might be due to the perceived superior quality of British goods.
But obviously that's never a choice facing the consumer. Because the lower cost of a Chinese product will generally offset any extra quality of a UK equivalent, and people take price into consideration when buying.
Personally, I often think that the extra cost of UK produce isn't reflected in the quality of the item. Rather you pay a premium mainly because it's made in the UK, with its higher labour costs. I suppose my personal perception (and it isn't shared by everyone, I accept) is that a [i]Made in the UK[/i] sticker isn't any guarantee of a good product. The only meaning it actually has is the literal.
[i]Made in Germany[/i] however - that to me suggests quality and solidity. And when you look at the way Germany treats its engineering talent, and you look at the German psyche, you start to see why that might be a fair assumption to make.
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Not everything with Made in Germany stamped on it is good quality.
I once ordered some holesaws at work and received these made in Germany ones and they were terrible. They were ruined after just one use. I ordered some UK made Starrett ones and you could drill a hundred holes before wearing them out.
I will always try and buy British if its good quality.
But sometimes its hard to find out if something is British designed or made or even its just the head office thats in the UK. I Think companies do this because most people are simply driven by cost when buying and that their is no weight to a Made in Britain sticker. Also companies source materials and part manufacture from all over the world so its hard to shout how British you are when all you do in the UK is the finishing and packaging of the product.
If their was a UK body that guaranteed a certain standard like the Lion mark on eggs then that could help companies show how good they are and consumers make a choice.