Am I right in thinking that a lot of the current trail centres around the UK (specifically not talking about uplifts/bike parks) we're all created around a similar time in the early to mid 2000s? Feels like I've been riding the same places for decades now without much new stuff cropping up unless it's a gravity type venue.
Im sure there's a multitude of reasons like the cost of building work multiplying exponentially, loss of the grassroots racing scene, red tape, changes in the type of riding people do and a general lack of excitement around the sport given it's not longer in its infancy.
I could be rambling nonsense here but the end of 2023 has me reflecting on what I want out of riding next year and all I can see in terms of new experiences is stuff like bike packing and road/gravel riding with very little new stuff in the MTB world to explore.
Not to mention that EU funding seems to have dried up for some reason…
Natural stuff is great, but when the winter is this wet, it gets wrecked in the way that well built armoured stuff doesn’t.
I could be rambling nonsense here
Agreed. Why on earth would you base your 2024 plans on trail centres?
The mind boggles.
Halcyon days of outdoor access was early 2000s. Trail centres, open access mapping....
Tory govt of 2010 onwards really killed a lot of public focused investment off, and had they been able to would have reversed the pesky access stuff that had really pissed off their landowner supporters.
Have we really seen an uptick in MTB 'customers' to make them viable, there's a trail centre near to most folk these days, or some private MTB venture (BPW, B1KE, etc), not to mention even more 'natural' stuff that's been worked on for years?
There was a lot of investment in 2000s, but there was no infrastructure before that bar the natural, was up north when the 7stanes were starting, Glentress was like a mecca for most back then with folk from all over heading there, now you don't really have to venture that far as you'll pass 2 or 3 trails centres or alternates.
The amount of money involved in building one and maintaining it is eye watering so not many places are willing to spend the money...forestry have various reasons (not just because they want everyone going to Glentress so have invested exponentially there to the detriment of other places and potential places) but it largely revolves around the cost.
Plenty of places have stuff and if you want to see more - can you spare time at your local place (which may not be next door) to volunteer to build and maintain? If more people did this, it could help get more build (volunteering is great, but it requires commitment - almost entirely time).
As mentioned by others, the halcyon days of masses of EU cash to do stuff are long gone and there isn't enough to go round (well, there probably is but there are wars to pay to supply and various cash cow projects and cash drains) withing the UK.
A shame, but trail centres are just a small part of mountain biking, so it isn't a completely bleak picture.
Non cyclists have become less tolerant of the negatives.
A lot of which relates more to the increases in traffic and inevitable shit parking in all the (usually fairly small) surrounding towns and villages rather than to the actual riding of bikes in the woods.
I road a trail centre today and it was fab. I see them some as a bonus as they arrived after i started riding
But there is less money for these sort of projects. Plus as the sports moved on they don’t cater for all. Too easy for many. So loads of people are either on unofficial trails or specialist up lift centres
So you’re competing for a smaller groups of people with less cash
Personally I wish some one would build an armoured trail in the Chilterns. Happy to pay to play
Agreed. Why on earth would you base your 2024 plans on trail centres?
The mind boggles.
I do as much 'natural' riding as anything else but it's too easy on my MTB for the most part hence mentioning most of my goals for riding revolving around the gravel bike.
Given how often the weather is soaking here too, armoured trails do have value to me.
Perhaps I need to ditch the full suss and get a rigid mtb or something.
Foot and mouth really benefited trail centres, especially Glentress. As well as the funding drying up due to a certain political party and a certain referendum bringing in so many benefits. On top of that, the novelty factor seems to have worn off.
Seems that there are a lot of "Ghost" trails popping up due to the fact there is a lot of unofficial but just about tolerated trails at some North Wales trail centres.
if you want to see more – can you spare time at your local place (which may not be next door) to volunteer to build and maintain? If more people did this, it could help get more build (volunteering is great, but it requires commitment – almost entirely time).
If only it were that easy. We have a decent crew of riders who would happily invest that time to dig and maintain trails at our local (the amount of current unofficial stuff going in is testament to that). Issue is FE not having the time, money, or therefore inclination to support us in doing that. Like the Glentress comment above, we've basically been told all the little MTB money that there is in the midlands effectively goes to Cannock and Sherwood.
So we'll carry on digging and looking after stuff anyway...
Meanwhile at Cannock the forestry say there is no money because the parking fees have to pay for all the less popular centres! Still I think they might actually be doing some work on upper cliff.
Though a shout out to whoever is funding QECP. There at the weekend and the new skills area and mini trail were really popular with the kids. The resurfacing on the top of the blue descent had it flowing great.
In the beginning… before trail centres were a thing, the Forestry Commission led the way and going from zero to the trail centres like Afan and CyB felt amazing. But in Wales, for now at least, I don’t think NRW has the resources/funding stream nor (more importantly) the risk appetite to develop new centres. It is also harder given the increase in rider expectations . The private sector has also stepped in and set the standard so if a more official trails are done on NRW managed land it will probably be via a private sector partner or provider. The unofficial trails are of course a whole different thing.
As said, both BPW and 7 stanes got a lot from the EU, not just direct funding to the trails but wider infrastructure in the area too
I can't see much investment coming from government, the only real new centre has been the Atherton's dyfi uplift , how much of that is private investment and how much local funding?
the other question is how much demand there is? there's a bit of 'if you build it they be will m come' but its a pricey hobby, bikes, gear fuel all add up
Foot and Mouth was a trigger for a lot of funding, and was the primary driver behind things like the 7 Stanes.
But after the initial funding, Forestry realised that they suddenly had all these trails, with no viable business model to make them economically sustainable. However it was a useful way for Forestry Commission to hit recreational use targets that had been put in place by the then Labour governments.
Roll on to now, governments (Tories south off the border, and SNP north of the border) have mostly removed recreational use targets as they cost money. The result is in Scotland, FLS's primary focus is fully back on profit and timber production. Recreation is something to just bumble along trying to make money any way possible, and cause the minimum disruption to timber production.
The latest Glentress additions have only been funded because Forest Holidays (a commercial arm of FC/NRW/FLS that spans England/Wales/Scotland) wanted the land around the original freeride area for lodges. Funding was topped up with various grants, but without the combination of the lodges and the world champs, it probably wouldn't have happened.
Every scheme, new or upgrading existing trails, in Wales for the last 15 years has heavily relied on EU Regional Development Funding. BPW had a lot, the Cognation Project was 50% funded by it, Antur Stiniog had a lot too. Now that has all gone and the replacement funding promised has never materialised nothing is happening. There are two projects that I know of that are ready to go once funding is available, one just outside Cardiff to make the rider-built tracks at Forest Fawr official and one to legitimise the trails at Twrpentwys, but there hasn't been any movement on either for a long time. The last bit of EU funding was spent on upgrading Cwmcarn but only a small part of it went into the trails, most went in resurfacing Forest Drive and building a few picnic spots.
It will be a long wait before any new projects materialise, places are more likely to close.
There has been a fair bit of investment in my local trail centre, Ballyhoura in Ireland. I am not sure I am a big fan of the changes though. They have added new trails which is good and added graded trails too ( reds_ blacks) which is good but there has been a big swing to sanitising the trails with hardpack everywhere. Lots of man made berms/drops etc but everything that's not a black is smoothed out hardback with all the natural surfaces gone. You could most trails on a fully ridged bike.
I would settle for some investment in the trail centres that already exist.
The way I view it is that these places exist to help riders progress, so imagine if the routes were all blue overall but braided and looped to allow riders with different skills, to all enjoy rides together but provide easy access to the next more difficult feature for next time around.
On that note, often at Gisburn or Dalby, the volunteers catch grief for smoothing the place, when all they've done is return it to its original state. If riders want rougher more technical trails, they exist everywhere else, there are no lack of more difficult trails and features these days outside of TC's.
I only go to trail centres once or twice a year so don’t notice a ‘lack’ of new ones. I’d echo the points above though - who pays for them? Must cost a fortune to put the infrastructure and trails in.
It’s made worse that way at new developments there have been are tailored to blue / green family trails designed to help families spend as much money as possible in the bike hire shop and cafes as possible. New developments for actual riders are even more scarce. We went to Afan a couple of years ago and it was sad to see how run down it all felt with little maintenance let alone anything new. It has put us off going back any time soon.
It’s made worse that way at new developments there have been are tailored to blue / green family trails designed to help families spend as much money as possible in the bike hire shop and cafes as possible. New developments for actual riders are even more scarce.
Wow. Self-entitlement off the scale.
There has been a fair bit of investment in my local trail centre, Ballyhoura in Ireland. I am not sure I am a big fan of the changes though. They have added new trails which is good and added graded trails too ( reds_ blacks) which is good but there has been a big swing to sanitising the trails with hardpack everywhere. Lots of man made berms/drops etc but everything that’s not a black is smoothed out hardback with all the natural surfaces gone. You could most trails on a fully ridged bike.
Isn't that just following the swinley blue model? (And other places) Higher traffic, lower challenge trails get surfaced in a finish that wears harder and thus deals with year round use and less maintenance better?
It reduces the burden of trail maintenance, and means resources can be focussed elsewhere. It's the kind of thing trail centres have to do in order to be able to build you those new reds and blacks I reckon.
You can choose to see it as a negative or as the trail managers thinking about these things and coming up with a plan that lets them do more with the budget and personnel they have available...
It’s made worse that way at new developments there have been are tailored to blue / green family trails designed to help families spend as much money as possible in the bike hire shop and cafes as possible.
Not at Swinley at least. I went Wednesday to find the endless snake of the Blue trail has been reduced, and there's a new route better signposted with a new section for the red which adds more berms, jumps and table tops to a 22km loop.
Tory govt of 2010 onwards really killed a lot of public focused investment off
Yep, and the local council's ability to contribute. There were plans to develop Lee Quarry, including cafe, etc but then tory austerity hit and all council money was pulled leading to lack of maintenance and policing so it got destroyed by storms and motorbikes.
Covid/lockdowns have also made matters worse.
Wow. Self-entitlement off the scale.
Forgive me for suggesting, on a mountain bike forum, that mountain bike trail centres should invest in trails for mountain bikers and not just for family entertainment days. What about those of us who do want to venture more than a mile from the car and cafe
Not at Swinley at least. I went Wednesday to find the endless snake of the Blue trail has been reduced, and there’s a new route better signposted with a new section for the red which adds more berms, jumps and table tops to a 22km loop.
We went this week as we were in the area with the outlaws.
Thats the first time I’ve been there in probably 6 years & hopefully the last for the next 6. I’m not going to waste energy typing about how bad it is there.
However, I’m mostly confused by how poorly maintained 90% of the loop is, yet they have invested a not insignificant amount of time building a section of trail with features in, that 95% of the people who go to Swinley are never going to hit.
It’s just weird.
Forgive me for suggesting, on a mountain bike forum, that mountain bike trail centres should invest in trails for mountain bikers and not just for family entertainment days.
Because for every one rider who is able to and wants to shred their gnarpoon down the rad sick trail, there are a dozen people who don't know what any of that means and want a family day out, ideally on trails where they're not going to die.
So they cater for their audience.
It's a bit chicken and egg - you cater for that subset = you get that subset.
It's not an easy task at all because "MTB" covers such a broad range of abilities from kids out for a family day on simple traffic-free trails to weekend enthusiasts to semi-pro riders who want a day out smashfest.
What about those of us who do want to venture more than a mile from the car and cafe
Yeah Colin. You unadventurous blue route following trail centre nincompoop you.
Get out on your bike and have a real adventure 🤩
You unadventurous blue route following trail centre nincompoop you.
Oi, I resemble that comment!
Places like Northampton and Leamington spa I think show where trail centre money is best spent. Giving accessibility to safe trails in a location that you don't need a car to reach has much more social value than creating a playground for T5 owners to spend their weekend driving to. The Leamington spa one was part funded by British cycling, not sure where else they have invested in but I'm sure there are other examples
Not to mention government cuts…
That's one way of wording it.
First time I rode a trail centre was around 2016 in Wales. Just after the leave vote.
Was surprised by the number of signs with little EU flags on them. Can the Welsh not read "funded by the EU"?
Can the Welsh not read “funded by the EU”?
Yep but scary immigrants etc etc. You can sort of get your head around well-to-do middle England voting leave but in Wales it truly was Turkeys voting for Christmas.
I'm from S.Wales and go back pretty regularly and the level of pig ignorance and racism is off the charts!
Yeah Colin. You unadventurous blue route following trail centre nincompoop you.<br />Get out on your bike and have a real adventure
LOL. I'm beginning to think that @chrismac is gently trolling and/or I'm just missing the irony in their posts 😂
You can sort of get your head around well-to-do middle England voting leave but in Wales it truly was Turkeys voting for Christmas.<br /><br /><br />
IME, not necessarily well-to-do middle England, but ex-mining areas in England and Wales. Oh, former industrial places like West Midlands, Dundee etc etc. We moved from a relatively affluent area of Sheffield to an ex-mining village in Nottinghamshire, and a lot of people were similar those you mention live in S.Wales - we moved away!
i used to work for the European Regional Development Fund back in the early 1990’s. There was a Tory govt in at the time, and one of the biggest problems we had was getting funding recipients to put signage up to say that the EU had part funded their projects - and in a lot of cases, they’d had 50% funding! I think a lot of this reluctance to acknowledge any EU help came from the anti-EU tripe in the right wing press (perhaps because their offshore dwelling tax-dodging owners were afraid that the EU might bring in tax laws that would hit their wealth?!). <br /><br />
I find it ironic that most of the former industrial and mining areas that received huge amounts of EU regeneration money were also where the strongest support for ‘leave’ were. It’s just same old story of naieve ignorant people getting persuaded into something by a bunch of con artists.
spend their weekend driving to
This was one of the reasons for investing in great trail centres in places people rarely visit… to get more people to visit… and to get them to return again and again. Be it days out or long weekends away. And it worked. Running a trail centre as if it can fund itself, or just to serve the local community, misses some of the big positives they can bring to an area. This big picture long term area improvement stuff has now gone missing. We all know why. See above.
Money is obviously at the core of things. In Scotland, FLS is significantly self-funded (i.e. by timber sales and renewable energy ground leases) with only a relatively small part from the government (which is not set in stone). So naturally they focus on planting and harvesting over recreation which really doesn't make any meaningful monetary contribution. There's also a huge timber industry that wants (and in the case of FSC certification, very often needs) FLS timber - as a govt agency, they can't afford to not support a large number of rural employers and jobs. Still reckon they could do more in terms of maintenance, but you know, there are reasons for focusing elsewhere.
I often wonder if there could ever be a charging system for somewhere like Glentress to keep the trails in better condition, but with the outdoor access code, not sure how that could feasibly work. The rise of trail associations and agreements with land owners seem to be a viable route forward, but it is all dependent on volunteers which isn't easy (I am guilty of not helping enough).
Another thing is liability, or rather, the impact is has. It is a lot of time, effort and money when someone like FLS gets a claim against them. If they decide to contest it, that could be years of on/off work before a hearing. Some of the stories...
