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This article was from April this year - some of you may have seen it already, but I've never came across it before.
It is an interview with a guy who developed the test for detecting EPO use in athletes and who was also involved in the 2005 analysis of the positive tests of Armstrong's samples from the 1999 Tour. He says there is no doubt in his mind that Armstrong doped on that Tour.
[url= http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden ]He makes the most compelling argument I've ever read.[/url]
Have always had a suspicion that Armstrong doped, but this article has confirmed it for me.
Quite sad really, as I used to really admire his performances during his 7 year reign on the Tour.
Won't look at him the same way again now.
Everyone knows he does it, but when you bring billions to cycling and are bigger then the tour you can get away with it.
That's also why Lance refused to get the samples retested early last year.
Alwyn, you're really on a mission about this, aren't you? 😀
I don't think I'm the only one, when you read into it a bit, about how the blood oxygen levels work and Lances previous team mates it looks pretty suspicious. Let alone beating confirmed dopers 7 times.
No cyclist should be bigger than the tour.
No cyclist should be bigger than the tour.
Unless the can improve the profit margins of course 🙄
surprised?
i seriously doubt anyone whos been around in the recent golden age od doping hasnt
good article in dirt this month about why its not so prevalent in mtb
If I can recall one downhill cup winner a few years ago got his title taken away because he went and had a joint after he found out he won and got caught. Does that count as doping?
Alwyn, has moving to Scotland made you angry at the World?
Also, you seem to be spending way to much time on this forum, shouldn't you be out training for TT's or something?
he doped, but i'd be very supprised if you tested anyone in those tour's and found them not to have doped.
EPO is quite a simple drug, everyone had access to it, it was nigh on undetectable, and what do you think the odds are of that many people, even athletes, manageing to have haeomcrit levels 49-50? The guy is clearly one of the greatest cyclists ever to have lived, would he have won that many tours without EPO, proably not, because everyone else was on it.
No, I just don't like Lance’s attitude to doping and life in general. That came very apparent in this tour especially the way he treaded Contador, who I highly doubt is clean either.
I’m off training for TTs at 2pm 🙂
I don't think hes still doping, the controlls are much stricter and the penalties harsher.
Surprised no one's mentioned this:
[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated ]unusual blood values in this year's TDF?[/url]
Don't worry, I mentioned it the other day.
Lets put put some real perspective on this.
Doper or not - all the new new tests are based on normal values - whatever that means.
Reality is he hasn't been normal since he was diagnosed with cancer. One testicle removed, brain surgery - whose to say there isn't a physiological reason for so called odd values.Has anyone looked at brain function on recovery and physical exertion after this kind of surgery.
I'm no Lance fan - but i would be peed off(bad pun) if someone tested my samples without authority and hadn't followed the protocols as a cyclist i would want them to get it right the first time. Lets face it you only have to mention drugs tests and probikers pee their pants these days.
If it was EPO they can still sanction for the previous seven years.
How many times has the guy bee tested this year?
As for blood transfusions they can test for autologus and homologous transfusions.Bored of hearing that one.
Lets face it no one knows what normal really is!
He's the most tested athelete in history.....
He's innocent until PROVEN otherwise. Just cos you don't like the guy doesn't make him guilty.
Alwyn are you part French?
I'm not, but do love the French life style. If I have money when I retire then I'm off to the Pyrenees. The main problem is the way they test for epo. I am not a sports scientist so don't know a better way.
It would be nice for to tour to return to the days of LeMond and Hinault. Don't get me wrong this year’s tour was amazing and I'm sure next year will be too. But it would nice to have a tour that’s about the cycling.
Is anyone that daft to believe that the TDF riders are not on something ?Think about, they ride flat-out doing over a 100 mile most days for 23 days with only a couple of rest days.
Doesn't take a genius to work it out does it....... 🙄
i posted that link on here when he came out of retirement.
the UCI, the cycling media and some professional cyclists have no desire to upset the applecart, the mainstream cycling media will not publish those facts or interview the scientist for fear of reprisals and being denied access to the cyclists, without which they cannot sell their magazines.
if anyone has an interest in drugs in cycling then Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage is worth a read.
Well, if everyone is so sure, why don't they come right out and say it. If they have the proof I'm sure they will be happy to expose it in the subsequent court case. If they do not have absolute proof then they deserve to be hammered by punitive damages.
In any case, I thought I saw something recently where Israeli scientists proved it possible to mimic a given DNA sample. If that is true it makes the whole process quite unreliable.
Well, if everyone is so sure, why don't they come right out and say it. If they have the proof I'm sure they will be happy to expose it in the subsequent court case. If they do not have absolute proof then they deserve to be hammered by punitive damages.
And therein lies the problem, you can't test for EPO [b]doping[/b]. EPO occurs naturaly in the body, just like testosterone, however testosterone tends to sit arround fairly average levels and in set ratios with other hormones, so it's fairly easy to spot someone who's taking it. EPO is produced by the body when it wants more red blood cells, and is metabolised fairly quicky, as are the ecxess blood cells if you stop taking it (few days/week and you be back to normal). The test in the article revolves arround looking for patterns of EPO abuse, the telltale signs being the cyclic EPO levels as the althlete dopes, then the levels drop over a few days, then peaks again. This technique was not used 10 years ago, and I think I'm right in saying isn't used now as it's not considdered reliable enough.
Whether you want to believe it or not, someone has developed a test for EPO doping, and Lance's samples failed.
Testing old samples from back in '99? the samples cab be affected by time and storage adding huge errors in his testing.
Hell there are errors in blood work in heamatology labs for patients daily.
None of you are experts that could critically evaluate the testing involved.
Lots of stats have huge errors incl journals published daily.
They should just legalise everything and be done with it.
If people feel the need to shave their legs and pop loads of pills, it's either Gay Pride or road cycling, and I guess road cycling pays better and the holidays aren't too bad.
Trouble is that people die as a result of doping, and young cyclists have to dope in order to compete.
also, Cubed, this test for autologous blood transfusions. Do you have a link for that?
myheadsashed - MemberHe's the most tested athelete in history.....
He's innocent until PROVEN otherwise. Just cos you don't like the guy doesn't make him guilty.
Alwyn are you part French?
Well one thing is sure you are certainly part ****t. WTF as french people to do with it? Being in charge of both organising the race and drug testing of a cycle race?
nostoc, tell me precisely why "young cyclists have to dope in order to compete"
That's rubbish.
Will anyone win this event without being tarred with a drugs ring round his neck .
Lance is Guilty until proven innocent . Enjoy It .
What about our British Boys . Doing well Eh .
Are They on the same stuff ? Enjoy it.
It will come out in the wash eventualy .
I guess it depends on what level you're talking about, but to compete against someone who has manipulated the oxygen-carrying capacity of their blood (ie. at the top pro cycling since at least the early 90s) you have to do the same. Admittedly things are cleaner now than they have been.
Im with Kona - good comments..Does anyone care to speculate that maybe Bradley Wiggins or Mark Cavendish or on something as well? We seem quite happy to bash LA & most other pros but what about turning the spotlight on the brits for a second?
RepacK many in the peleton are currently talking about Brads great tour and many are suspicious hence him publishing his blood values just after the tour finished. Any pro rider who does well is under suspicion, that is the price they have payed for years of doping and lying about it.
Make the TdF a non-stop race then give them access to speed. Its a nice cheap drug and the mountain stages will be interesting. It also opens the way for diehard ex-clubbers to get in on the cycling scene, what with their high tollerances to recreational drugs!
He's the most tested athelete in history.....
Oh good, that old one again. I'm fairly sure Marion Jones was amongst the most tested athletes, and she never failed a drug test...
BigCol/Alwyn's article is intersting... what it suggests is that riders are training at altitude in the off season, have blood taken and stored (with high haemo counts, etc, coz of the altitude) and are then transfusing this "souped-up" blood during races. This is not news, they've been doing this for years, and unless you actually catch them with the line in it can't be conclusively proven. It's morally opaque, unpleasant even, but is it doping? Is it even cheating?
This made me laugh.
[i]the UCI, the cycling media and some professional cyclists have no desire to upset the applecart,[/i]
Upsetting the applecart is what the UCI and the cycling media do.
As far as Lance goes, he's not broken any rules, he's been tested a huge amount and never been found positive. The Epo test is flawed at best no matter what the bloke who helped invent it said.
myheadsashed - MemberHe's the most tested athelete in history.....
No he is not - he like to make that claim but many other have been tested as much or more.
Also many athletes now known to be doping have never tested positive. Marion Jones? Many others caught up in balco and other scandals
He's innocent until PROVEN otherwise. Just cos you don't like the guy doesn't make him guilty.
Very true. there is lots of evidence he has doped - from the unusual blood values to the tested old samples to the testimony of team-mates to the fact that many of his team-mates have been caught. He is not a [b]proven[/b] cheat tho. There is no proof he has doped.
[i]He's the most tested athelete in history.....[/i]
jesus. that still doing the rounds?
konajim - MemberWill anyone win this event without being tarred with a drugs ring round his neck .
Lance is Guilty until proven innocent . Enjoy It .
What about our British Boys . Doing well Eh .
Are They on the same stuff ? Enjoy it.
It will come out in the wash eventualy .
There is plenty of evidence [u]but no proof[/u] around Armstrong and he is also from an earlier generation when doping was the norm
there is no evidence ( that have seen) let alone proof that UK cyclists have been doping
If the epo test is flawed then Schumacher, Ricco, Rebellin, Di Luca, Astarloza, Kohl, Sella etc. etc. are all waiting to be defended from this great miscarriage of justice.
Is anyone that daft to believe that the TDF riders are not on something ?Think about, they ride flat-out doing over a 100 mile most days for 23 days with only a couple of rest days.
They don't race flat out all day every day. IIRC, they're in the "active recovery" heart range for up to 75% of the race.
[i]If the epo test is flawed then Schumacher, Ricco, Rebellin, Di Luca, Astarloza, Kohl, Sella etc. etc. are all waiting to be defended from this great miscarriage of justice. [/i]
I completely agree. That's not to say they weren't doping, merely that the test is flawed and should never have been used as a standard for detecting the use of Epo.
One of the compelling bits of evidence to me is how tightly clustered the measured haematocrit levels are (i.e. nothing like a normal bell curve). The cut-off point was set at a level determined to be un-natural - so I agree with thisisnotaspoon, seems highly odd to see all these values clustered just below the legal cutoff.
would he have won that many tours without EPO
I'll caveat this question by saying I don't know a great deal about road cycling but from what I've read one of the reasons for doping accusations directed at Lance stem from the number of TDFs he won and the disbelief that anyone who didn't dope couldn't have achieved that.
Now, Miguel Indurain won 5 TDFs on the trot but he never seems to create the same level of hysteria re. doping and as far as I know he never tested positive but correct me if I'm wrong.
So why the Lance hating when someone like Indurain seems to escape such criticism?
'Abnormal' blood values is rocky ground IMO. If you're looking at why one cyclist is better than another why wouldn't it be that cyclist A's haemocrit dosn't do what everyone elses haemocrit dows over a 3 week stage race and gradually reduces?
Unless you unequivocally find proof of recombinant or synthetic EPO in a sample, you shouldn't go wrecking lives and careers on pseudoscience. Saying it looks dodgy is different to saying it is physiologically impossible, to saying it is a proven fact that he has doped.
That book by Kimmage. I had the impression that alot of people in there needed to get a life. Especially the cheats who had been caught and become holy than thou/pursuing Lance as though they were clean and he was the one who had been doping.
Pro athlete takes drugs shocker! When I was at uni performance drugs were more common than recreational drugs.
Have a mooch around the (numerous) drug related forums and you'll find amateur athletes of all kinds discussing what drugs they use and how to avoid detection.