[Closed] If you thought mandatory full facers were a pain for UKGE...

Within a couple of years it will probably consist of the cream of the crop of UK bikers; ex-pros, ex-elites, top 10 placing riders in other series. The kind of talented riders that have the time to train, the skills to mix it at the top level. The kind of riders who have a degree of sponsorship, or at least shop-backing.

cream of the crop of UK bikers; ex-pros, ex-elites, top 10 placing riders in other series

hobby rider standard

hmmm, the cynic in me wants to suggest that UKGE are more interested in protecting themselves against claims rather than perhaps having their competitors best interest at heart.

Absolutely NOTHING wrong with an event organiser wanting to protect themselves against claims. It's sensible.

What's a "competitors best interest"? Allowing you to crash out on a fast stage in an XC lid and smash your face in? How about the impact on other racers, for example someone stopping to help you and in so blowing their own race? Or the landowner who then refuses to let a race come back, so losing a venue? Or the organiser who ends up facing a liability claim?

Improving safety with a FF is fine and reduces the organisers liability.

Personal insurance (a) does not improve safety and (b) does not reduce the organisers liability.

Allowing you to crash out on a fast stage in an XC lid and smash your face in?

Helmets aren't some magical device that totally prevent head injuries, full facer or otherwise

How about the impact on other racers, for example someone stopping to help you and in so blowing their own race?

What's that got to do with personal accident insurance?

Or the landowner who then refuses to let a race come back, so losing a venue?

Again, what's that got to do with personal accident insurance?

Or the organiser who ends up facing a liability claim?

How does personal accident cover trump the organisers liability insurance?

maybe he's trying to filter out all the cheapskates so that he only has nice, new, shiny bikes taking part?

There's still time for them to put in a rule about wheel sizes!

the solution is obvious why dont all the negative ninnys 😉 just set up their own enduro series of 5 well organised and challenging 3 day races using some great venues across the whole of the UK

you can insist that no one has insurance and stop getting REALLY ANGRY on the internet about UKGE?
🙂

Bb - first of all, cheer the **** up.

I gave my answer based on both FF and insurance.

And as has been posted here and elsewhere, the accident insurance places agreed claim limits for injury type, so hopefully protecting against runaway claims from no win no fee types.

A few grumpy old men on a little website won't stop UKGE doing well.

Either follow the rules or don't play. But for the love of god stop whining.

andyrm - Member

And as has been posted here and elsewhere, the accident insurance places agreed claim limits for injury type, so hopefully protecting against runaway claims from no win no fee types.

No it doesn't, we don't just suddenly limit or waiver our right to sue because we took out personal insurance. Even if it did, the basic cover doesn't even cover a huge number of injuries.

I think the point a few are trying to make is
[img] [/img]
and that everyone should be a bit more
[img] [/img]

Enduro1 have explained their position on this subject;

Most of you have are no doubt aware of the debate regarding competitors having to obtain their own personal accident insurance in order to ride certain Gravity Enduro races.

I have been looking into this matter as I firmly believe it is the way forward for riders who race or partake in a sport that is considered dangerous. However, at this stage the way cover is underwritten and the criteria required by the underwriters in order to quote it is impossible to obtain blanket cover as a race promoter that covers their competitors in case of injury. Underwriters will only quote on an individual basis as they need to know your details, claim history etc before quoting as everyone is different and not just regarding age.

As a race promoter I only have to obtain third party public liability insurance that indemnifies the landowner and myself in the event of a member of the public being injured during the event. It does not cover you as a rider and you would have to pursue my insurers or me personally to obtain a financial payout, that is hard to win unless of course I am guilty of gross negligence, which I do everything in my power not to be.

Think about this. If you are self employed and god forbid sustain an injury preventing you from working are you sufficiently insured that your mortgage and bills can be paid and you can provide for your family, should you have one? If you have insurance does it cover you for competitive mountain bike racing?

Those of you employed, are you sure your companies sick pay policy covers you for competing in a dangerous sport? Some don’t so check.

Please be aware that British Cycling insurance will no longer cover you for any Enduro racing in the UK including our Enduro1 races.

We are working on a cost efficient why of implementing this but it will take time. So, I will not be insisting that you have personal cover to race the series at this point in time, however, I strongly advise that you obtain it as it’s a no brainer, especially for the self employed!

I recommend the following company and contact. Maria knows and has partaken in dangerous sports and understands Enduro and mountain biking as her brother is none other than Josh Bryceland of the Santa Cruz Syndicate! The company already provide cover for some of the biggest names in the industry. She can tell you what is available and the most cost effective way to obtain cover that not only covers you for racing but for anytime you are on your bike here or abroad. Before you ask, I have no affiliation to this company and receive no remuneration whatsoever and of course there are plenty of companies out there so, shop around.

Give her a call and do the right thing because it’s time competitors took responsibility for themselves.

Maria Bryceland: 07711 002580
Email: maria.totallysports@gmail.com
www.totallysportsinsurance.co.uk

Looking forward to catching you at the races and wishing you a cracking year of racing.

Carlos

So two organisers have looked at the same problem and come to the same conclusion - now that BC are out we need personal insurance and this can only be obtained individually.

Carlos says

I will not be insisting that you have personal cover to race the series at this point in time, however, I strongly advise that you obtain it as it’s a no brainer

Be interesting to understand how PMBA can say

you don't need to worry about the insurance side of Enduro

So two organisers have looked at the same problem and come to the same conclusion - now that BC are out we need personal insurance and this can only be obtained individually.

and this upsets you so much for what reason mike?

Well said mikewsmith

The whole BC thing is bollocks I never had personal insurance with them then so I don't need it now. What it comes down to is the organiser believes they know what is best when it comes to our personal matters

As a race promoter I only have to obtain third party public liability insurance that indemnifies the landowner and myself in the event of a member of the public being injured during the event.

kimbers - Member
and this upsets you so much for what reason mike?

It is not just him it is a lot of people. We know how to make decisions we don't need the organiser of a race to tell us that they know best.

Is the "British Cycling have pulled out" thing a red herring?

Would BC have really paid me £2000 or whatever the going rate is if I'd been doing an enduro and broken my leg?

And having insurance doesn't mean that there is no liability. UKGE's PI insurance is there to protect them against liability. My 'injury' insurance doesn't stop me, or more importantly my insurers, from suing the organiser (or their insurers) if there is negligence. It's not as if compulsory car insurance has meant that there no-one sues anyone in any RTC related cases (or their insurers don't claim back from other insurers)

kimbers - Member
and this upsets you so much for what reason mike?

Is the "British Cycling have pulled out" thing a red herring?

Yes

Would BC have really paid me £2000 or whatever the going rate is if I'd been doing an enduro and broken my leg?

This what BC will Cover,

[i]Included with our Race Gold membership, this is a particular kind of insurance cover that provides cash payments if you are hospitalised overnight. Lump sum payments are also provided for death and permanent disability but loss of earnings and medical expenses are not covered under this policy.
Who is it available to?[/i]

Race Gold Members

Personal Accident Insurance - the details

Personal Accident insurance cover is provided for all Race Gold members aged between five and 79 years of age. This is an additional form of insurance cover that provides cash payments if you are hospitalised overnight.

Lump sum payments are also provided for death and permanent disability but loss of earnings and medical expenses are not covered under this policy.

Who is covered?

Cover is for Race Gold members only and includes non-competitive, social, leisure and utility cycling and competitive cycling in events held under the auspices of British Cycling. Cover is also provided whilst participating in competitive events held under the auspices of other cycling organisations whose rules and regulations (including Event Safety Guidelines) are acceptable to British Cycling.

Cover includes direct travel to and from any venue for the purposes of participating in an approved event.

Benefits

Hospital cash benefit - £25 for each overnight stay up to a maximum £750 (additional £250 payable for 7 consecutive overnight stays)
Permanent disability(7) : £25,000
Loss of two or more limbs / loss of both
Eyes or one of each(7): £25,000
Loss of one Limb / Eye or permanent loss of speech/hearing(7): £25,000
Permanent Total Disablement(7): £25,000
Death: £10,000
Main exclusions

Persons under the age of 5 and over the age of 79.
Temporary or partial disablement.
Specific cycling activities: professional cycling, monocycling.
Occupational cycling and where the bike is a tool of trade.
Conditions

Permanent disability is defined as “disablement which entirely prevents the insured person from engaging in any and every occupation for which the person is fitted by way of training, education or experience” for those aged between 16 and 74. For those aged under 16 years and not in gainful employment and those aged 75 to 79 years and in gainful employment at the date of the accident, disability is defined as “any and every” occupation. There is no cover for Permanent Total Disablement for those aged 75 years or over who are retired.
Includes the use of dernys and electrically assisted pedal cycles which are not registered for road use
Benefits limited to £5,000 max. for members aged 71-79 years.
Geographical limit - worldwide subject to a maximum of 21 days per trip outside the UK.
All claims to be reported within 28 working days and independent evidence required that the cycle has been involved in an accident.
Whilst we are unable to provide this additional cover to members aged over 79 years and under 5 years, it is very important to remember that the essential members’ liability insurance cover is still provided to all Race Gold, Race Silver and Ride members without age restriction.

7) applies to Gold members joining or renewing their subscription after 30/4/14.

UKGE are so interested in keeping their sport aimed at being by riders for riders, and keen to explain their rationale about personal insurance requirements...that they've chucked me off their FB PAGE for my comment.

Well, that's an adult response. 😕

LOL so it wasn't just me, guess they think the best way to deal with a PR disaster is to purge...

Interesting comment from Matthew from UKGE:

"The personal accident cover is for you to cover you against loss of earning and such like."

If that is what ukge think bespoke is offering then fair enough, but it isn't. To get coverage for 'loss of earnings and such like' is a damn sight more than £8 a month...

nickc - Member

Steve Parr's comments on FB about how most noise is coming from people that are new or potential riders and the other's of UKGE suggesting how some sponsored riders sre not worrying about this; is telling, I don't think he wants us plebs to ride in his series TBH.

TBH I think he's got the best of intentions but he's just got the horse before the cart- looking at bigger sporting events and seeing the structures that they have in place for the highest level, and thinking "That's what a top end event looks like". There's sports where the top end is full- there's no place for me in the olympics or world cup downhill. So they have structures in place to ensure that only the best compete.

UKGE, and UK enduro (perhaps world enduro) isn't like this- look at the last results sheet, you see a very thin elite class of 30 riders, and half the field are uncompetitive. Unless you think there's 150 competitive racers waiting to take up the space, or they can survive with half the riders, that makes it obvious that UKGE can't yet aim to be exclusive or elite. The average competitor isn't just equivalent to the average competitor at your local enduro- it's the same guy.

They won't turn it into an elite series with elitism. If we do get to the point where feeder series are needed and the UKGE is a genuinely elite event, I'll celebrate frankly but they're miles from that. As is the world series clearly since they let knobbers like me do that, the entry requirement is being able to work the bloody website

Let's face it they don't have a clue. BC dropping out keeps being mentioned but they clearly don't understand what BC offer or require. Then they say it's to protect UKGE but it won't. Then it's for loss of earnings but it's not. The policy only appears to allow one claim per year so how to they manage that.

Insurance is an important thing to get right. Yet for some reason Enduro is more dangerous than every other bike discipline.

I think bespoke don't seem the to be offering the best deal but while its compulsory to have insurance its not compulsory to ho with bespoke

The insurance thing was mentioned in full face thread and Parr's intetrview on pinkbike b4 Xmas so shitty preferred supplier aside I still don't see why so many people knickers are getting entangled

Parr has also said he wants to make the series tougher so full face and pa insurance seem wise

This thread is a wonderful illustration of how right that pinkbike post was about this place

nickc - Member
Steve Parr's comments on FB about how most noise is coming from people that are new or potential riders and the other's of UKGE suggesting how some sponsored riders sre not worrying about this; is telling, I don't think he wants us plebs to ride in his series TBH.

Did you see the bit where they said, had the BC not dropped them, they would require ALL entrants to have BC Gold membership and licence at £109 for the year.

Not sure how they would enforce the Gold membership AND licence, dont think any other national series caries that requirement (and you only need a licence if you want to accumulate points, so of no interest to those only doing one event).

So yeah, basically they only want the 'serious racers' involved.

Where did they say that stato ?

What tyres for "serious racing"?

Kimbers if you have read what people are posting you might get what people are objecting to.

The minimum level of insurance covers very little if anything, if you are selling the idea that you will need pa as the races are going to hurt you its probably not the best sales pitch.
Take the fact that this is a private insurance deal unlike bc prices it could be double what the low price is. What happens if you claim and next year your premium doubles? Is 250 still not an issue?
Add in the pr disaster and deleting people's Facebook comments who disagree might be what people are getting upset about. That and being told if you complain you are probably crap at riding...

What the **** can't you just buy a weeks cover for the event? Even a months cover. This is why dogtag etc need to jump on it.

PR disaster 😆
Yeah Parr's crap at explaining stuff and some people have got all pissy on the internet, but the races sell out well in advance, so he can probably afford to upset plenty
its kinda like the our forum post on stw
And You're sort of missing the point
When you've devoted the majority of your weekends every year for the past 3 years building up the best and only uk wide enduro race series on these fair aisles and happen to think that all the competitors will be better looked after by having insurance or indeed that you want everyone to race in mankinis, you can stipulate it as a condition of entry

Until then ya'll just sound like a bunch of whinny outraged from Tunbridge wells types distraught that they have to pay an extra 100 quid a year before they can justify their several grand enduro gnarpoons by actually entering a race

I'd be much happier giving £100 towards the race series than it going to a broker and underwriter for some pointless insurance that is of no benefit to the series (despite what the organisers seem to think) and of only marginal benefit to me.

What happens in amateur (horse) eventing, rallying, motor racing? I'm sure in the latter cases competitors are required to have liability insurance. I highly doubt that any events demand individuals have personal injury cover. It makes no sense!

I just find myself thinking back to my days in financial services sales - I didn't sell insurance but I'd have been very pleased to go to a meeting where I manage to persuade those organising a national race series that they should insist competitors take out a fairly pointless policy which does nothing useful for the series but gets me a good £20k into my sales pipeline over the next year. And next year the premiums can go up because of all the crashes and minor breaks causing a large number of claims...

[i]If that is what ukge think bespoke is offering then fair enough, but it isn't. To get coverage for 'loss of earnings and such like' is a damn sight more than £8 a month... [/i]

See previous page, £40pcm only covers £1000pcm (max 2 years) for a 50 y/o. Younger will be cheaper.

[i]When you've devoted the majority of your weekends every year for the past 3 years building up the best and only uk wide enduro race series on these fair aisles and happen to think that all the competitors will be better looked after by having insurance or indeed that you want everyone to race in mankinis, you can stipulate it as a condition of entry[/i]

Well, yes you can, however you better have a damned good reason, or a pretty slick PR machine to explain to all your customer and potential customers why you're doing stuff. Getting all pissy and saying "It's my ball I can take it home if I want" Isn't what you want to hear from an "organisation" trying to run the "foremost Enduro Event"

They've pissed off a large part of their customer base and potential customer base, and whilst you can say that STW isn't every-one it's the most widely read mountain bike website in Europe and here's 10 pages of unhappy, curious riders wondering what the hell is going on, and there's silence from UKGE. I don't want to put money into the hands of people that a) seem not to have a ****ing clue and b) can't/won't explain their decisions.

Having had a good read of the above my cynical (no spoons involved) side says the PA cover business is a quid pro quo for the organisers liability cover. I would expect that the company providing the PA cover is also underwriting the PL business and took a view on the costings of the PL based on a number of PA policies being bought.
If too many people buy PA from third parties the series may not happen next year or entry costs will go through the roof.

It is a bit crappy that the organisers can't be more open about their reasoning, possibly worried that "their" federation idea may be stolen if they give out more information.

kimbers - Member

the solution is obvious why dont all the negative ninnys just set up their own enduro series of 5 well organised and challenging 3 day races using some great venues across the whole of the UK

Posted 14 hours ago # Report-Post

scottfitz - Member

BTW If anyone fancy setting up a second UK wide series I'm sure Steve and team would relish the challenge/compaction

These!!

So, to sum it up.

Nice idea, piss poor execution.

Out of interest those who are getting their knickers in a twist about this, how many UKGE rounds have you raced?

Same question to those who are in the "if those are the rules… shut up and take my money" camp.

I'd imagine the people who have raced a few seasons (in any discipline) appreciated the work put in to organise a series like this and will still be entering regardless - are those who fancy dipping their toe in are the ones complaining?

Pure speculation…

…and yes, piss poor execution - could do with a bit of social media hand holding from someone who knows what they're doing.

Pure speculation…

I've raced multiple rounds for the last 3 years, as have a lot of my friends.

It's pissed us off, because it's forced, we don't want it, so it's a waste of £100 just to enter some races. And let's be honest, the levels of cover being banded about are a joke anyway.

We will play the system though, by setting up a policy to enter the races, then cancelling it each time. It should only cost a few quid at least. I'm sure I can cope without the measly levels of cover they offer for the other 51 weeks of the year.

and yes, piss poor execution - could do with a bit of social media hand holding from someone who knows what they're doing.

It's pretty apparent he shouldn't be allowed in front of a computer. He may well be whining that the people commenting might not be his core of racers, but those people may have become one. It's safe to say they probably won't now.

Is this still going on! ;P I've not got anything to do with it (never have, and probably never will enter one), but as it's t'internet, I'll throw an opinion in the hat!

I think the bottom line is, if you want to enter Steve's events, you have to go by his rules unfortunately.

How they can make you take out PI insurance is a bit grey, but having it is not a bad idea, and would hope most riders would decide to do that on their own (but if not, that's ok too, your body and all that), especially if they are racing the full series.

I don't really understand how they can enforce you getting PI cover from any other insurer that the one recommended though...are they going to phone up the insurer of every competitor and ask "does this cover PI for riding our event?" Or do you have to get a cert specifically showing that your covered for gravity MTB races?

This type of thing matters because it can start to affect other races also.

Not everyone here may have raced Enduro but from the level of comments it is clear that enough people have raced other cycling disciplines to have a good understanding on what insurance cover is in place and what it does. Maybe if Steve Parr wasn't so arrogant he'd go and talk to other organisers and get a better understanding of what is required.

Out of interest those who are getting their knickers in a twist about this, how many UKGE rounds have you raced?

Same question to those who are in the "if those are the rules… shut up and take my money" camp.

I'd imagine the people who have raced a few seasons (in any discipline) appreciated the work put in to organise a series like this and will still be entering regardless - are those who fancy dipping their toe in are the ones complaining?

Raced loads of Enduro here in the UK and Europe. Across a few different organisations, I've seen a few funny rules that result in a bit of hassle/extra expense/minor ballache but it's just part of the game sometimes if you want to compete.

I take a pretty easy going approach to racing and life in general - if you can change it, change it, if not, don't give it another thought and run with it.

Either enter and take out the cover, or shut up moaning and find something else to enter.

dragon - Member
Maybe if Steve Parr wasn't so arrogant he'd go and talk to other organisers and get a better understanding of what is required.

He is!

[b]In December, we chaired the first meeting of all Enduro organisers in the UK and 2015 will see us working together for the greater good of UK Enduro. We were aiming to set up a Federation for 2015 - See more at: http://www.ukgravityenduro.com/ukge-statement-insurance/#sthash.4BVKMMWl.dpuf [/b]

Maybe if Steve Parr wasn't so arrogan...

It's his series, if you want to race there are a set of rules you have to abide to.

If you don't like the rules, don't race. It's as simple as that.

Yeah because Enduro organisers know everything there is about race organisation? Bike racing has been happening in the UK for over 100 years, it is arrogance to think you can't learn anything from established organisations. It is pretty clear from UKGE statements on BC that they don't understand the rules that they were operating under previously.