I consider myself an ok cyclist who is a reasonably competent climber. As such I was considering a trip to the lakes to do a few of the big climbs, hardknott etc.
Anyhow today I did a sportive in Tayside that included the glen quaich climb, which is rated as one of the hardest in scotland, it's 9% average for 3 miles, but the first mile is absolutely brutally steep, the second half is almost flat in comparison.
I got up it, but it was a real struggle. At one point I looked at my power reading and was putting out about 380 watts just to turn the pedals..at around 40 rpm. And I was using a 34/32 gear!
Thing is whilst it was brutally steep compared to anything I've ever been up before, it's absolutely nothing compared to the 30% ramps of hardknott. I looked on strava afterwards and I was 4th fastest on the day up the steep bit, so obviously not that bad. But I genuinely don't think I could get up hardknott based on my exp today.
So..how do people get up it? Is it only ridable by cat 1/2 quality riders, or is it not actually as steep as everyone says it is?
Depends on your chainset. Easy on mtb, do-able on a compact road but quite tough on a standard road chainset if the road is wet...
It's got 30 degree ramps, but they only last a few dozen yards each. So a different beast altogether. There's only one way to find out if you can do it, and you'll have a great day either way. Remember to save something for Wrynose, it's no pushover,as it were.
It's quite tricky on 34/28 on a damp road with 100 miles in your legs
I've driven over it a few times. I'm not scared of a decent climb.
I have no idea how people ride up it either!
I first rode up Hardknott on 39x23 - luckily I didn't really know what what coming - the second time was far worse - even getting over the cattlegrid at the bottom in the wet is a bit sketchy for starters.
I managed it east to west last summer without dying, on an Orange Alpine (10sp double) with a 30l rucksack and some bikepacking gubbins attached. Other than a couple of hairpin corners it wasn't particularly memorable, and no more severe than say Honister Pass (again east to west...)
Can be tricky in a car. First car I went in was an original Mini. No power and no synchro on first gear. Lots of grating noise.
I’m no whippet climber, but managed my goal of no dabs on the Fred whitton on 34-28. The steep ramps are short, and if you go wis on the hairpins you get some relief. It’s not too bad, just don’t psych yourself out!
Got up it and Wrynose on a compact road set up on the C2C in a day. Obviously early on in he day. Doubt I would have after a ton already in my legs like they do on the Fred W. Fair play to those that do.
I remember having to stop on the hairpins in a 2cv. Took 10 seconds to start moving again at full revs.
I seem to remember it being quite painful but other people stalling and falling off in front of you being the major barrier. I just about managed to thread my way through and then nearly stalled on the last ramp after the hairpins.
tpbiker - is that the climb up from Kenmore? It’s a tough one.....but Hardknott is in a different league. Done both but maybe Hardknott was harder than normal as I did it during Fred Whitton ride.
As has been stated above... bloody hard with 100 miles in your legs and 10,000ft climbing already in the bag.
Fred Whitton Challenge- hard day out!
I've done it at the start of the C2C in a day and at the end of the Fred Whitton without unclipping on 34/30. I'd struggle at current fitness level though. Having good balance or trackstand ability helps, not only for a little respite but also for the stallers in front. A bit of stubbornness helps too, "if I wanted to walk, I would have left the bike at home" is what my inner voice says.
A lot of swearing.(Ive done it on a MTB , not tried with a road bike.)
🙂
is that the climb up from Kenmore?
That's the one.
Hardknott is in a different league
That's what I suspected! I read somewhere that hardknott requires a minimum of 4 watts per kilo to get up, but on today's experience you'd need much much more than that. 4 watts per kilo is a fraction over my ftp, but surely you need to be putting out close to double that on the 30% sections. I appreciate they are short but just turning the pedals sounds like it requires a huge effort.
Only one way to find out I guess, however I need to plan a route that lets me hit it fresh. Doesn't look particularly accessible without numerous other hills involved beforehand!
It's just daft, outside the normal bike riding envelope really. Have done it on the MTB acouple oftimes, never tried on the road bike but the cattle grid messes with your mind and the first couple of pulls are horrible. After that it's more a mental game. Stop for a look backdown eskdale, a sarnie and a tab by the fort, no point over doing it.
I read somewhere that hardknott requires a minimum of 4 watts per kilo to get up, but on today’s experience you’d need much much more than that.
How *did* people ride up hills before they knew their FTP?!
It's a mix of technique, equipment (low enough gears and a reasonable rear tyre) and sometimes luck (like not having traffic coming down or other riders falling off in front of you).
Decent core strength to allow that fine balance at 2mph and a low enough gear that your knee caps aren't popping out and the mental attitude to push yourself through it.
Did it on 34/28 once (a road-ified CX bike). I'm sure that the very first time I did Fred Whitton though I was on my steel road bike with 39/25. I think that's the reason I've always used my CX bike every time I've gone back there!
Did it on the C2C last year, would say unsurprisingly most of its fitness and pacing to the 30% ramp, when on the ramp though technique is pretty key, just keeping Continual solid contact with the pedals and holding the bars firmly straight. They'll want to turn sharpely if you don't maintain a slow and steady speed. Don't zig zag. Just get it done straight up.
I best phone it up and retract my ride up it ..
My w/kg only 3.3
I found it easier on the bike that in my 68 bhp Berlingo to be fair
TpBiker, is this part of some sort of humblebrag where you actually reveal you were doing 15mph up the Quaich? 😉
Have ridden the Quaich several times, from both sides, and it just seemed like a long unpleasant climb!
Hardknott at the end of the FW was intimidating, and my quads cramped going into it although I managed to shake it out, and actually had to accelerate up the inside of a train of riders who were all but stalled on the outside of THE hairpin. Rode the rest with zero dignity but also zero dabs.
I'm pretty sure from the XC thread that you're fitter than me, so you'll be grand, especially if running 34x28 or lower.
My uncle drove a Bedford QL up that road as a test. Some of the corners took 4 or 5 reversing on opposite lock to get round. He said it was quite hairy.
Last time I rode up it was on a Clockwork Orange carrying a 30l rucksack filled with a week’s clothing. In the rain. It was hard, but not as bad as the people from the Morgan club were finding it.
Done it on a road bike 34-28 without much drama. It was dry though.
Dartmoor has worse hills.
It's many years since I rode Hardknott, and that was by accident - I left a friend to plan our route, only checking it over the night before.
When I saw where she'd planned for us to ride I said "Do you not know what all those little chevrons mean?!"
We were on our crappy road bikes, but just took it very, very slowly. If you're prepared to move like a tortoise and can put up with the pain then it's doable. We even rode up the Wrynose* the same day.
I think the best cup of coffee I ever had was at the top of Hardknott.
* which for many years I believed was named "the Rhinos". I did always wonder why.
I did it on the Fredalike (we just nicked the GPX) last year. I thought I'd sussed it with a 50/34 and an 11-40 cassette on my 7kg road bike... Until Honister when I broke the bottom 3 sprocket cluster (Recon cassettes = useless) and ended up 8 speed 11-32.
There are 2 really steep bits; at the start and 2/3rds the way up. I managed to get up without dabbing or stopping but cadence was low and I've no idea of power but 'sufficient' presumably.
If you're a fit road rider, have light gear/are not too lardy, ride compact plus 11-32 and pace it, you should be fine (no implied guarantee etc). Oh and like off road, move around to balance traction/wheelying.
TpBiker, is this part of some sort of humblebrag where you actually reveal you were doing 15mph up the Quaich
Ha..unfortunately not. As I said I could barely turn the pedals at points. I found it seriously tough even with a 32 out back
Which is why I struggle to figure out how I'd get up something much harder without walking.
My w/kg only 3.3
I'm assuming they meant for the duration of the climb..
Back in the day I did it with 36x28. Me and my mates called it the Hardnose expedition. Both passes both ways. But although I was young and generally fit I wasn't a serious cyclist.
My memory is that one side has much more assent the other is steeper. I met a guy who did it in 42x24.
If I do it again I'll have a 20inch gear or less. Less power more weight these days
I've done it twice on the Whitton on a compact running 34:26, I think, the first time. And the second, because that was the largest cassette my Campag group-set allowed. I was okay fit both times. Thing is, it's not a constant gradient. In fact it comes in two section with a sort of recovery flat about a third of the way up and even then, there are only a few really steep hair-pinned ramps on it. You can always back off a little on the less steep sections.
I think part of the problem people have is that from the bottom, you can see pretty much the entire climb laid out in front of you, which is quite intimidating, especially on the Whitton where you look up and see loads of people pushing on the steep bits. But mostly it's just stubbornness and fitness. It probably helps if you live and ride somewhere with lots of steeps. The whole ftp thing just sounds like overthinking to me.
The whole ftp thing just sounds like overthinking to me
That kind of sums up this forum 🙂
It's a glorious climb but honestly it's not that hard to get up - Any decent mountain biker should be OK with it on a sensible cassette. The middle bit is a blessing from heaven that can be soft-pedalled, and you'll know how to lay down power for the hard top third from doing do-or-die mountain bike climbs. You also have to go into it with commitment and clarity of mind, as the first third is hard.
Doing it with big miles in the legs is a different story, though, as there's a risk of cramp even if you're very strong [there was a vid up on the FW website of a very fast lad who's gone round under 6 hours, saying even he's cramped on HK and had to get off].
You really need your war-face here, so not I'm going to try my best, not it would be really nice to make it up, it's more I'd rather have a cardiac arrest and get carried off the mountain in a box than fail to make this climb - At least that's what it took for me. Most of the FW field don't really want to get up it, deep down, so just climb off early doors.
Best of luck to those taking it on in 2 weeks - feels quite emotional cresting over the top 🙂
No idea how the old-timey roadmen got up it on their tiny gears - I think that is a question of exceptional power to weight pushing a 21 block up there or whatever they used to use.
Flaperon which hills in Dartmoor are worse? I've ridden most of them and Hardknot is much more hurty.
i rode up it a month or so ago.
rode from satterthwaite out to little langdale, up wrynose, up hardnott, turnd round at the top and then rode back over wrynose.
bike was a ecr with 3'' tyres.
Flaperon which hills in Dartmoor are worse? I’ve ridden most of them and Hardknot is much more hurty.
Dartmeet probably gets close, it’s not as long or high overall buts it’s in one hit without any let up.
Widecombe hill is pretty sustained without any letup.
The climb out of bovey to Haytor is a monster buts it’s got a number of flat sections to recover.
I’ve only ridden in the lakes for the FW once but I’ve ridden pretty much every climb on Dartmoor and I’d say the FW was a harder ride than anything I’ve done down here.
Hardknot is way harder than both Dartmeet and Widdecombe.
It probably helps if you live and ride somewhere with lots of steeps
Could be some truth in that. I rode over last summer in the mizzle, looking forward to it having struggled over aged 14 on a ten speed.
Was nothing compared to my memory of it, the descent was much worse. 39x25, seated (coz of the greasy road). Yet there were fit-looking riders zigzagging up it, maybe they were in the 5th hour of their ride, who knows.
Only properly tough road climb I've done is the Muro di Sornamonear Lake Como. Anyone know how it compares to that?
That looks like a more consistent gradient than Hardknott
https://veloviewer.com/segment/2182738/salita+del+Muro+di+Sormano+
I reckon Dartmeet is worse.
Having said that this might be because I thought that the first big climb out of Ashburton was Dartmeet, only to be unpleasantly surprised a few minutes later.
Widecoombe is tame in comparison, just spin up. Loads of little climbs getting on for 25%+ round the Teign Valley.
On the other hand, I've not ridden a FW so reserve the right to change my mind.
I've not been up hard knott pass, but how does it compare to winnats pass in Castleton. I've never ridden it, but it looks tough.
but how does it compare to winnats pass in Castleton
It is harder
It is harder
Yep. Winnats gets proper steep for a short section at the top, but it's much shorter. It's all subjective, depends on your strengths and weaknesses and preferences and personal history with a particular climb as well. I quite like Hardknot. Rationally I know that Honister is easier, but I just properly dislike it from the Borrowdale side. It's just nasty and steep and just a little bit steep for a little bit too long in a way you don't quite expect.
Having said that this might be because I thought that the first big climb out of Ashburton was Dartmeet, only to be unpleasantly surprised a few minutes later.
If this was from the Dartmoor demon you posted about the other day, you didn’t do dartmeet. Your probably thinking about Holne chase and the climb out of newbridge up to poundsgate.
To be honest though, the hardest climb for me on the FW was cold fell. The wheels nearly fell off there for me.
Mainly because I’d convinced myself the feed station was before it.
