[Closed] Hell-vellyn last Sunday (pics)

Everyone can put their soapboxes away now.... 🙄

Is it safe to admit to the same crime as SFB? Only on 2 or 3 or 4 occasions

While I in no way agree with SFB on his stance re: erosion and riding where you want generally, on this one he kind of has a point.

Riding down a heavily fortified trail centre trail causes erosion, walking and riding down bridleways causes erosion. Anybody going anywhere doing anything causes erosion, even riding or walking down those stairs causes microscopic erosion, so what you are doing is arguing about the finer details of the same thing and as simon points out your not going to suddenly get 200 bikers a day riding down DW steps just cos he has pointed out there is a chicken run. Those stairs do a damn good job of coping with the many many walkers who go up and down there all year (and they scare off quite a few mountain bikers) so jobs a good un and let's not get too uptight about it - this time...

"climb to Boredale Hause"
thats a quality descent!

If its the bit I'm thinking of, the top bit of that descent is crazy, steep and loose enough so that braking doesn't really work at all.

I don't mean the actuall descent into Boredale, I mean the one shown in the picture from Boredale Hause down toward side farm/patterdale, brilliant descent, with a bit of a tricky little drop off in the middle.

It does slightly pish me off that when they do repair the [b]bridleways [/b]they do make them much less accesable to bikes. Helvellyn, Snowdon and Cadiar Idris have suffered from steps and drainidge ditches.

I wouldn't want to see what they've stuck up Skiddaw anywhere else tho.
But there's got to be something in between!

From this:
[img] ?v=0[/img]

To this:
[img] ?v=0[/img]

That looks like its been improved loads!

Pain to get up tho, and you'd come down rangers anyway...

Your actions are tantamount to vandalism

says you, but IMO the grass was well up for it, and it was me riding it. On reflection it may be a well established sheep track.

biking on tracks like this is what mtb is all about for me.

i love riding in the lakes and snowdonia. that track on skiddaw looks much more fun now.

I wonder how much erosion damage riding a tandem does? The force of two people over the same contact patch surface area as a bike with one person on it. Time to ban tandems if you ask me. Work of the devil. They don't even look like proper bikes! 😀

As for the debate in hand, how do folk imagine that a trail is created in the first place? Whether by ramblers, bikers or animals, evryone and everything contributes in their own way to erosion. By building in water bars on steep descents which are difficult to get over even in a trials style, I would suggest that the trail builders on Dollywagon have created a design which is deliberately exclusionary to most mountain bikers. It should come as no great suprise that some riders chose to ride the grass instead as an alternative means down.

Ultimately, I find it very hard to get even remotely upset by someone riding down the grass and potentially creating a new track. Coming down from Bidean Nan Bean on foot two weeks ago, I was cursing the constant jarring of the stone pitched steps as I walked down into the valley below. They can be as much a pain in the backside to walk down as they are to ride down and I was content to walk off the trail. I'd much rather walk or ride an eroded trail than an eyesore of a man made stone pitched effort.

If you are offended by people creating trails, perhaps you should consider the impact of your own lifestyle whether it's driving a car, buying food with lots of unecessary packaging, buying cheap battery grown chicken from the supermarket. All are actions which have a consequence which are probably more worth getting upset about.

As for SFB, if he is an anarchist, how the hell does he manage to go on so many organised rides?

As for SFB, if he is an anarchist, how the hell does he manage to go on so many organised rides?

LOL

Sanny - the point being that people have gone to effort to reduce erosion on that track. To do what SFB has done will accelerate erosion.

I get very het up about this because when I was a kid I walked those fells - and there was not the eroded and / or stepped paths there now is.

Its an unfortunate fact that people on the hills cause erosion. Responsible people want to minimise this - irresponsible people don't care. The latter annoy me.

Cycling alongside a stepped and water barred path will damage the vegetation along a line - this vegetation will die. One skid will cut through the surface. Next winters rains will run off along this and cut a great scar into the surface. Its a procvess that accelerates rapidly.

The massive amount of erosion on the popular hills really upsets me - especially when folk do not take care to prevent it getting worse.

If you continue to walk on side of the paths all that happens is they eroded areas become wider - I have seen 30m wide scdars caused by this.

AS for us on the tandem - I guess the same as two bikes? However I always ride on the path, on the most eroded parts, I avoiid most boggy places when wet and I pay heed to "responsible access" and to the various codes on the mountains

I'm with Sfb on this one.

I have ridden that trail many times.

Tandem Jeremy you are talking a load of tosh. The trail has not been designed with mtb's in mind at all. It is a very challenging descent and nigh on impossible uphill. It would have been easy to build a more mtb friendly trail, and I would like to see you get a horse down it. Both of these modes of recreation have equal right to be on this route, but only walkers are facilitated. My take on all this is that if the powers that be wanted us to ride on the path then they would have made it rideable in safety. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't ride this route. You have a right to. Just avoid the path. Its very easy to descend that hillside with minimal impact if you take care and avoid locking up.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of erosion in that spot was from walkers and the path was intended to minimise this. Did you ever walk up here in the eighties when the whole area was a scree fan. That certainly wasn't from mtb descents, I first rode it on a fully rigid in 1990. took me two hours from Glenridding to Glenridding via the dam and the zigzags and down by Dollywagon and I only rode the scree because a walker bet me that I couldn't. I was fit then.

Well carry on as you are doing and don't be suprised when in ten years time there is a 30 m wide eroded scar on that hillside. I was walking those fells in the 60s and 70s

If you are offended by people creating trails, perhaps you should consider the impact of your own lifestyle whether it's driving a car, buying food with lots of unecessary packaging, buying cheap battery grown chicken from the supermarket. All are actions which have a consequence which are probably more worth getting upset about. [:mrgreen:]

I do none of this things
*blows raspberry*

Then why not lobby for an appropriate path rather than telling fellow mtb'ers that they shouldn't ride where they are entitled to? I for one have written to the NP pointing out their mistake.

So what's your take TJ on riding on some of the motorways which "**** Up The Fells" have recently installed in the south lakes footpaths - perfect for riding, but not strictly legal, or I could go and stuff up a legal but boggy bridleway and make it far worse.

Well carry on as you are doing and don't be suprised when in ten years time there is a 30 m wide eroded scar on that hillside

there used to be - due to the pressure of walkers the fell was breaking up into scree. It has been restored with a rock staircase, but of such irregularity that most bikers cannot ride it very far

blah

has anyone ever ridden Striding or Swirral Edge? I reckon the run up to Catsycam and down the other side would be fun

TJ: The bike traffic on Helvellyn is minimal (certainly FAR less than the walker traffic) and your views on erosion don't hold water. Anything and everything causes erosion rom sheep to walkers to bikes. Here in the Peak District, a lot of the fells are now open access - walk wherever the hell you like basically. I don't see anyone round here complaining about the mass erosion of the fells simply cos a few walkers choose to go across the heather. Now imagine that rule applied to Helvellyn as well.

Job done, it was OK to ride. 😉

Swirral been done I believe by a crazy OB instructor. No details just heard about it. I've run striding but you wouldn't catch me riding it.

irresponsible people don't care. The latter annoy me

If, when I next ride down Dollywaggon (assuming I can't manage the steps), I see any evidence of the fell collapsing up [b] I may reconsider.[/b]

Ten again, life would be boring if we agreed on everything, wouldn't it?

Personally, I try to stay on trails wherever I can, but were not talking about locking up brakes and churning the ground up,or removing trees to allow for 'landings' etc. I don;t fully agrree with either party, sitting on the fence...

which doesn't seem justified

there's no question that Dollywaggon [b]was[/b] in a poor state, but the massive works done have created a robust path for the walkers, who are the majority of the traffic, and the scree that had formed has grassed over nicely stabilising the surface. As you can see from my photo above, grass is tough enough to stand up to the passage of tyres.

As for SFB, if he is an anarchist, how the hell does he manage to go on so many organised rides?

anarchism is about a lack of respect for the rule of law - which tends to favour the privileged. It does not preclude cooperation 🙂

here is a sense of selfishness and superiority that comes across when you describe stuff like the above that threatens to undermine all the positive contributions you make to this forum and riding as a whole. In any case

thanks for the qualified compliment 🙂 I would characterise it not so much as selfishness as selfdetermination. I don't believe that somehow conforming to some illdefined code of conduct will allow us improved access, or that failing to conform will result in its loss.

Morning all. Having a real life (of sorts) outside of getting dragged into these debates, I've been away from the computer and the posts make interesting reading. To be honest I can understand the objections to TJ's parochial tone (and the fact that his general rubbing people up the wrong way on things elsewhere might annoy people enough to disagree with him on this).

Anyway, I think a lot of people are trying to conflate a number of issues (and even if they're not, they are succeeding in doing so).There are some ridiculously pointless arguments on here and as work is slow here are some observations...

1)[i]Sheep/walkers/bikes/weather/everything causes erosion, therefore I can do what I want[/i].
- Nobody claims that the erosion is solely caused by mtbers riding adjacent to rock steps. Some actions clearly are more sustainable than others. If you want to ride as you like and expect someone to come round and fix it after you've gone (maybe even wipe your arse for you), go to a “trail centre”. However, [i]if [/i]measures have been taken to minimise erosion, they are usually a bit of a sign that something (namely erosion) may be afoot. Yes they are a pain in the arse and rarely anyone likes them, but if you don't use them then you'll end up with the adjacent bit you're using being paved as well. Ad infinitum.

2)Kind of the converse of 1). Namely, [i]I don't cause erosion, I can't see it, it's not a problem around my neck of the woods etc, bikers are less of a problem...[/i]
- Fallacious argument. Everything causes erosion to some extent (as some have noted above as justification for causing it). One's own ability to perceive this is irrelevant (you can ignore clear evidence, feign ignorance, or the damage caused may be cumulative and have an impact on scales that are imperceptible in the immediate moment- just because you move on doesn't mean your impact does). For example, the effects of feet or wheels causes damage to plants which help to bind the soil (which may be invisible trampling-bruising etc), and over the soil becomes unstable, gravity and the elements intervene, erosion occurs. As noted by others above, this is how tracks form. Not exactly complex. Unfortunately, as tracks form and are subject to erosion (human/non-human) they may well be subject to the kind of management that make the Dollywaggon track the subject of the present contention in the first place...

3) [i]There aren't enough mountain bike to cause a problem. So why care if 1 or 2 do it?[/i]
- Again, in this and other circumstances the evidence that can be observed on the ground would suggest otherwise. Helvellyn is pretty busy through most of the year (including with mtb) and some areas are particularly susceptible to erosion if ridden irresponsibly. In any case, can you justify behaving in a manner that is unsustainable if practiced by the many, rather than the few. Are you that special that you demand such privilege?

4)[i]The rocky steps are not fun, too slow, not designed for bikes, too dangerous, I can/can't ride them anyway[/i].
- Good point. Nothing stopping you walking them, as I said earlier. Maybe not much fun, but is riding a grassy slope really that life-altering that you just can't envisage living without it? If so, you have my pity. Just as I doubt you can ride up them, I doubt you insist on riding up the grass instead. As some realise, trail repairs in places like the lakes often rely on volunteers, and there's nothing stopping you having input into how they might better be designed or even helping out (perish the thought) so that they suit you to the T that you undoubtedly deserve.

5) [i]I should be able to ride where I like, when I like. So what if there's a path there?[/i]
- Well everyone likes singletrack, yes? Let's imagine what happens when I ride alongside (but not on) said singletrack. Let's say it happens a few times, until, oh I dunno, maybe a track appears (for those not up to speed on this particular magic trick, see points 1 and 2). Wait a second, now the singletrack is braided or doubletrack. Well I never, how did that happen? (For the quick witted amongst those still following this thread there is no real need to reply). Never mind eh?? we can just drive somewhere else next weekend and complain when we come back next year and there are a load of rocky steps in the way.

Basically...

If you want to increase erosion, ride off the track.
If you don't like singletrack, ride off the track and cause erosion until you have a track there too (perfect).
If you want more steps to be built, ride off the track until its so eroded someone comes and paves that as well (genius).
If you want to piss people off who think unnecessary erosion is problematic, ride off the track (incidentally, have I ever told you how sexy I find such a rare combination of brains and physical prowess).
If you don't give a damn about what anyone else thinks or the impact of your actions on the environment, ignore all the above (You're clearly a ******* superhero and are invited to inseminate my unborn children- email in profile, no timewasters please).

[Oh and Zokes- I've been around a while, just don't post so much, so I get the craic with some of the more regular posters. Apologies for the confusion in missing your 'heads up', but I do think these are debates worth having (even if reading some comments following your last point I might agree with the waste of time part of it).]

Ineteresting discussion but just to set this off again.....

After riding the zig zags about 18 months ago I rang the National Park Officer to suggest that in future if replacing bridleways with rock stairs then the water channels should really be culverts. This would make them safer to ride - it's the water channels rather than the steps that scare the S%*t out of me. It would still be a real challenge but otherwise rideable if it was just steps and culverts.

The LDNPA officer responsible advised me to ride down the grass and that the steps were put there to reduce the trudge erosion of the walkers.

The man thought I was a fool to say that it was pointless spending so much on reducing erosion control only to advise mtbikers to ride down the grass. And wouldn't it be better to do future work with mtbikers in mind?

So if the LDNPA advise riding down the grass then the attacks on sfb seem misdirected - and for once he is just doing as he's told.

Oh dear he won't like that much!!

Well those last two posts seem to show what a complex issue this really is and how there is no one right answer. 🙂

I don't mean to be parochial. On the erosion issue its because I find the erosion very upsetting - places I walked or cycled many years ago on nice paths are now either heavily eroded scars or rocky stepped paths.

Really I keep harking on about erosion in an attempt to get folk to think about the consequences of their actions.

Your actions are tantamount to vandalism.

And this coming from the person I saw blatantly drop litter at Glentress (around carpark); PMSL - Pot kettle black anyone.

I wish people would put the same time and effort into stopping the Mxers trashing the trails in the Lakes - in particular around the Blawith and Dunnerdale Fells

Doubletalking - me drop litter at GT? When?

I wish people who bang on about the 'erosion' caused by SFB's actions would give as much time and thought to the impact cars etc have on the environment. One car will cause more environmental damage in one month or so, than SFB will in his entire lifetime, riding on grassy bits/where he's not sposed to. Even if he farts a lot.

I live near a motorway. The incidence of childhood asthma in this area, is much higher than anywhere else in Britain, almost.

I wish people would consider the environmental impact here. 🙁

Anyway, the sun is shining, and my shoulder seems to have healed up. I'm off out on't bike! 😀

me drop litter when

over the xmas period/new year. I was just commenting to a friend on how busy Tress has become and the litter all over the place (no doubt as a result).

Not me then Doubletalkin!

*sigh* I have to agree with those above who argue the case for erosion, and sticking to any armoured trails, however doubletalkin was not the only one to think "pot, kettle, black" in reponse to TJ. A certain well eroded wooded trail in the Pentlands springs to mind (a photo of which sparked a helmet debate a long while back) ...

Kit - I know the trail you mean. the soil is not getting washed off but it is chruned up. Its the only trail in the pentlands I ride like that. Justifiable - I ain't sure but I have discussed the use of it with others and the conclusion was it was fair game as there is a non boggy parallel path nearby which is used by walkers, the damage has been done by bikes and horses. It will not damage further. There are other trails in the area I won't ride when wet.

As for doubletalkins accusation - he has not seen me drop litter as I haven't done so.

Ooh, talk of allegation and denials! How exciting!

TJ; if you need legal representation, then I could defend you. I'm not a lawyer, and have had no legal training, but I've been to court a fair few times, and I'm from London, so I'm virtually a lawyer anyway.

Doubletalkin will need to prove that TJ was actually at said location, at said time and date, before then needing to provide evidence of said wanton littering. They will also have to prove this was a deliberate act, and that TJ din't in fact drop something by accident, and pick it up after.

If Doubletalkin fails on any of these points, then I'm afraid it's Defamation of Character, and we will have no choice but to sue for substantial damages. TJ; my rates are very reasonable.

I am confident it's a forgone conclusion. I'm afraid it's likely Doubletalkin will be looking at rotting in jail, for the rest of their natural. 🙁 Harsh, some might say, but that's the penalty for failure, I'm afraid.

I agree with RudeBoy here. All too often people are keen to point out the terrible environmental destruction caused by this that or the other: be it mtbers, plastic bags, plane flights, etc. But, when it comes down to it, to the real nitty gritty, in your face, brutal truth, how many of you do anything about all that?

TJ, do you drive your car to get to all these amazing mtb trails that are eroding away? If so, then I would, politely, ask you to, ahem, shut up and put your money where your mouth is. Do you fly to the Alps or Spain for your summer fun?

Its all very well getting angry about people being unsustainable or environmentally ignorant, but until you actually [i]do[/i] something about your own lifestyle and practices, then you are in little position to preach.

I have no car, don't drive, nor fly. I shop locally and am a vegetarian. But I pollute, I buy things, bike parts, newspapers, etc. I am no eco saint, I am a consumer like the rest of us here, and that means I royally **** the environment up. Maybe we should think about environmental matters in a much more holistic manner. It's harder to do, and asks real questions of us, but at least it would address the real problems with our lifestyles.

Not me then Doubletalkin!

I must of seen your twin brother then! I was surprised by the act of your brother, especially given your self righteousness on here.

and for once he is just doing as he's told.

Oi! You're destroying my rep as a rebel 🙁 But thanks for confirming my judgment of the situation 🙂

Doubletalking - Do I know you? Why do you think this person was me? Did you speak to me?

I wasn't at GT Christmas / new year and I don't drop litter. I really think you have me mixed up with someone else. what litter was it? I am miffed that I am accused of this as its not something I would do. I'll set rudeboy on you!

Mansonsoul - I don't own a car. Sometimes I get a lift with friends, sometimes I use the train, sometimes I ride to trails. I have flown once - short haul in the last 7 yrs

However air pollution and erosion of the mountians are not the same issue. I life as green a life as I can whilst remaining in the 21si century

I am miffed that I am accused of this as its not something I would do

it will have been another of the Woodentops :o)

I wasn't at GT Christmas / new year and I don't drop litter.

Ooh dear. All down to you to prove it was TJ, Doubletalkin. Unless you can unequivocally prove it was TJ, then your case looks in tatters.

I'll set rudeboy on you!

I am preparing the action. Lemme at him/her!

[img] [/img]

I don't drop litter... I am miffed that I am accused of this as its not something I would do

Slightly after New Year - piece of paper (or maybe old rollup fag end). The phatom TJ was with a group. SFB does not deliberately trash the trails, so I guess he may also be miffed of being accused!

so I guess he may also be miffed of being accused!

I mainly thought it was funny, particularly given TJ's ignorance of the specific conditions, and even funnier in the light of the park ranger's suggestion :o)

I was there at the very end of January and I do smoke rollups - which will disintegrate degrade in a few hours given the conditions. Tailor made fag buts I carry home
I still think you have the wrong person

SFB - of those particular conditions yes - but the general principle remains as others have said.

Hmm, this changes things somewhat.

Does a rollie end constitute litter? Or, is it like throwing an apple-core onto a bit of grass or something, in that it is biodegradable?

I'm going to have to get some heavyweight barristers in, TJ. This will of course push my costs up. We should still have a very strong case, however. Doubletalkin will still have to prove you were there at a particular time and place. Simply suggesting it was some time 'slightly after New Year' is insufficient to prove anything.

TJ; don't say owt else, without prior legal consultation. It is the prosecution's job to prove facts; you don't have to offer any information until they have a reasonable case for you to answer.

Forget Kavannagh QC, or Judge John Deed; this is Rude Justice.

TJ, that's great to hear. It sounds like you are trying to be a positive change in the world. That's awesome.

but the general principle remains as others have said

but one does not ride on a principle, only individual cases