[Closed] Have the Big Sportives overpriced themselves? Etape Du Dales content

Where's the entry page for this years EdD then?
Says they open 4am on Jan 10th - in which case 8 entries already is pretty good.
The entries haven't started have they - 'fess up, this is a pointless thread.

13thfloormonk - Member
There was a discussion on Bikeradar about how diluted the market for Sportives is getting, perhaps that is resulting in slower/lesser uptake?

Is it because organisers see it as an easy way to earn £££'s. Even Britsh Cycling was recently advertising for new sportive positions at their HQ.

Saw that the Wiggle Dragon had 3800 entries.......foook me. Thats a lot of cash. I know they use timing chips but the lesser sportives where no road closures, no expensive timing equipment, few banana's at a feed zone must be coining it in (I know some of them are).

I can see why people ride them as CW is chock full of piccies of middle aged chubby men in badly fitting assos with £5k bike and 50p legs. They have to ride somewhere. (and they are NOT a race ..despite what people claim)

There is nothing in this country even comes close to the Marmotte.

Are they not run by businesses for profit.

Plus you end up surrounded by hundreds of other cyclists.

As chairman of our road club I'm trying to organize inter club Sunday rides. Nothing serious. Something like we'll show you the best of our roads and you show us yours.

I demand to know whether entries have opened!!

oldgit - Member
Are they not run by businesses for profit.

Back to the OP - I think that there are just so many these days that the riders have more choice. For my part, knowing that there are so many means I'm unlikely to sign up months in advance and will likely see how the calendar is shaping up over the whole year before committing to any. I've done 2/3 per year for the last 3 years and I enjoy the banter and the element of competition (which exists regardless of what is said about not actually racing).

I agree totally with the sentiment of charitable rides where the percentage of your entry fee given to charity is openly stated..... 😯

I'm not an audax rider but I do admire the ethos of long rides and self sufficiency. Plus entry fees are sensible and I hear the support (cake) is good! My personal choice is to ride the Britsh 'Sportif' routes with a gaggle of mates in preparation for La Marmotte. The banter and competitiveness is there, and none of the expense!

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
There is nothing in this country even comes close to the Marmotte.

Absolutely. It's real [b]mountain[/b] biking 🙂

oldgit - Member

Are they not run by businesses for profit.

Ours are, yes. We run a small business with a 20 year history of getting people on bikes, We earn a living from it and pay our taxes. We give regular part time work to a number of people too. If we don't make a profit, we can't continue; it's how small businesses work. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Boxelder try this [url= https://www.sientries.co.uk/event.php?elid=Y&event_id=662 ]SI Entries[/url]They are now showing 50 entries and the opining date was definitely yesterday at 4.00am.

I will prob only do 1 or 2 this year and am going to try my hand at road racing instead, most races are at least £10 cheaper than sportives and I never make use of the facilities sportives offer e.g. food stops.

I can see why people ride them as CW is chock full of piccies of middle aged chubby men in badly fitting assos with £5k bike and 50p legs. They have to ride somewhere.

Ha, try telling this to the guys posting sub 4h30 over 90 miles of the Bealach Mor route.

(and they are NOT a race ..despite what people claim)

Who cares, if you've entered with the intention of putting in a good time, its still riding your bike as fast as possible over (hopefully) rolling hilly terrain. If you're riding to the timing chips then stopping for food etc. all counts against you, so you need to think 'race' to an extent.

I almost wonder if the 'They're Not Races!' crowd just feel threatened because there's no guarantee of a nice well organised group to hide in at a sportive :wink:.

trailbreak-martin - you sound like a genuine and up-front kind of guy. I have absolutely no objection to you earning a living, and it certainly sounds like you are not opportunist in the least in your entry fee. I'm sure this, in no small part, is why you have been in business for 20 years. So I wasn't trying to snipe at [u]all[/u] event organisers.

I know from experience how time consuming and difficult event management can be. I know how costs rack up, but I have seen (or turned up at) a few events where I have wondered where exactly all the entry fee will be going. Most organisers do seem to respond to criticism of a high entry fee by blowing their top though, whereas one organiser I know responded to grumbling about the entry fee by saying 'I can drop the entry fee, but there will be no more candyfloss or donkey rides' 🙂

Still, even the worst sportifs are cheap compared to motorsport events!

I almost wonder if the 'They're Not Races!' crowd just feel threatened because there's no guarantee of a nice well organised group to hide in at a sportive

No, we just wonder why we don't see these tryhards on Pinarellos at road races. You're lucky to get a pack these days, let alone an organised one! Wouldn't these guys prefer a result that actually counts? 😉 I only know I can't keep up with cat 2's [i]becuase I've actually tried[/i] !

I almost wonder if the 'They're Not Races!' crowd just feel threatened because there's no guarantee of a nice well organised group to hide in at a sportive :wink:.

They're not races though, they're personal challenges. You may want a time of sub 5hrs for a 100 miler but who's to say that the people you "beat" weren't out for a their own personal target of sub 6hr, sub 7hr etc. Equally, someone going round in 7hrs with a bunch of mates might easily be capable of doing it in sub 5 but has chosen to have a nice day out with friends.

The only thing you're "winning" is the battle with your personal demons that tell you to give up at mile 60...

As for price it's pretty much supply/demand. There are 5 or 6 events on every weekend now whereas 10-12 years ago there were no more than a couple of dozen events nationwide. More people on bikes, more people spending money in bike shops, if they've got the spare cash to spend on things like Sportives then so be it. It could be worse, they could have taken up golf. 😉

I've got no problems with people wanting to organise Sportives or people wanting to ride them, I just wish this notion of "racing" would go away. If you want to race, go and do a proper race you lightweights!

essentially it's money for old rope once you are setup

the costs are probably less than those to organise a large road race with NEG etc

if you are entreprenuerial enough to get one going then more power to your elbow. Market forces will act as a price control as will volunteer groups (cycling clubs, HTN types etc) raising money for charities who can undercut the commercial operations

they essentially fill a gap for "faux" competition for those who aren't willing to "race" but who want to compare themselves to others. It's a big part of the market and is essentially "fun running" for the bike

I'm going to do some audaxes (mudguards already ready 😉 )

They're not races though, they're personal challenges. You may want a time of sub 5hrs for a 100 miler but who's to say that the people you "beat" weren't out for a their own personal target of sub 6hr, sub 7hr etc.

Goes without saying I thought? Although I consider myself 'beaten' by the guys who've posted faster times than me, as I know I'm always going all out.

they essentially fill a gap for "faux" competition for those who aren't willing to "race"

Alternatively its filling a gap in the market for people who want to ride competitively (i.e. against a clock) but want to do it over long distances and on exciting roads. How many 100 mile 'races' are there in Applecross, or starting and finishing at the Cairngorm ski centre, or passing through Rannoch Moor and through Glen Coe?

If 'proper racing' means sitting in a bunch at a controlled pace, doing laps of farm roads in the outskirts of the city, then I'll take my 'faux' competition thanks. 8)

Not sure if its been said but the Etape is also a charity event funding the Dave Rayner scheme which helps support up and coming youngsters to race in europe like Lizzie Armistead and Matty Brammeier and possibly even Cav?

I did it last year in appalling conditions and found it great. I've only done one other sportive from Kilotogo, which was excellent and the only differences I could see were there wasn't a medal for completing a particular climb, no inflatable arch banner thing at the start line and no massage facilities. None of which really effect the quality of riding.

because there's no guarantee of a nice well organised group to hide in at a sportive 😉

I've paid for a licence this year so I'm going to try and do enough races that need one to justify it. Will probably do one or two sportives too. It amuses me seeing how upset some MAMILS get when DGOAB passes them 😈

"middle aged chubby men in badly fitting assos with £5k bike and 50p legs"

And there lies a perfect summary of your key sportive demographic. People who think you need a £5k bike will have no problem with dropping £40+ to enter an event.

I can kinda see the appeal and I have done a few - never paid more than £15-20 mind. Based on my experiences I'd rather be out on the club run with experienced people I know and trust as bike riders, rather then a load of strangers with dodgy bike handling skills who will allow one or two people in a group of 20 to do all the work on the front 😉

Alternatively its filling a gap in the market for people who want to ride competitively (i.e. against a clock) but want to do it over long distances and on exciting roads. How many 100 mile 'races' are there in Applecross, or starting and finishing at the Cairngorm ski centre, or passing through Rannoch Moor and through Glen Coe?

If 'proper racing' means sitting in a bunch at a controlled pace, doing laps of farm roads in the outskirts of the city, then I'll take my 'faux' competition thanks

and thus the "loophole" is exposed.

Sportives exist in a grey area where they operate legally as something other than a race but are treated by the organisers and competitors as a race (ie timed and prizes for being the fastest)

this has the handy aspect that they can get away which significantly less costs etc due to not using NEG, lots more marshals, signage etc. This is why "races" are organised where they are, in order to minimise costs.

anyone who organises a "race" will understand why sportive organisers officially "don't" organise a race

as for sitting in the bunch at a controlled pace, if your legs feel good, ATTACK! 😉

as for sitting in the bunch at a controlled pace, if your legs feel good, ATTACK!

edit - just saw this

"fun running" for the bike

I think the price will deter some people, I look at it as a training goal, and a chance to give to a worthwhile charity it motivates me to ride over the winter, knowing Ill need to be fit, but when I did it, I just latched on to whatever group was in front of me or coming past and rode my own ride, against the clock, its nice being able to go on your own but always be riding with other people, its pretty friendly even when you are blatantly echeloning up to tan hill and doing no work in a bunch, I was jut doing my best to survive and yes Im a MAMIL, but who cares.

But you did find one to drag you round the last of the Bealach route to get in under your target

Yes yes, well remembered! 😀 It wasn't a group, it was two guys, and they didn't drag me, we all took a couple of short turns at the front before it degenerated into a sprint for the line (for the screaming crowds obviously, we weren't 'racing', god forbid!). Plus it took twenty miles solo to catch them in the first place.

But yes, I would have been 'over' without them... 😳

I hear this a lot. I've been working full time as a cycle event organiser for over 10 years, so in line with popular opinion, I should have more money than Fred Goodwin by now. In fact I hear this so often read this on the web so often that I'm constantly surprised to find that I'm not rich!

Come on Martin, we all know your broom wagon is a Gallardo 😉

[For the hard of understanding: I have ridden many of Martins events in the past, always considered them decent value and always enjoyed them - a shame the a*** dropped out of the trailquest market as they were the ones I did most of and enjoyed the most]

it was two guys...we all took a couple of short turns at the front...etc

p.s. ride on the first ended up even shorter than the amended version!

@ anotherdeadhero - Thanks for clarifying that, I didn't think you were having a pop at all organisers, but the 'loadsamoney' image of sportive organisers is becoming a bit of a lazy stereotype, so I thought it was an opportunity to put the other side. There are so many events around now that there will be some shoddy ones, but there are good ones too, and a good event is hard work and not cheap to run.

@ brassnneck - you're out of date; we got rid of the Gallardo when the ash trays filled up. The new Learjet is very nice, but a bugger to land in a layby...

ride on the first ended up even shorter than the amended version!

Not surprised, I tried to get out on the second and heading out along the A70 was GRIM. Yours was a brave attempt, I'd only planned 50 mile and only managed 30!

big_n_daft - Member

Sportives exist in a grey area where they operate legally as something other than a race but are treated by the organisers and competitors as a race (ie timed and prizes for being the fastest)

I honestly think most sportive organisers really don't want their events to be treated as races; certainly not the ones who've been around for while. I attended a BC sportive commission a few years ago, and was pleasantly surprised by the level of consensus on the issue. After all, sportives are supposed to be a mass participation event. If you try to make them a full on race, you risk intimidating and alienating at least 80% of your market (the ones who don't spend their days on forums, speculating whether sportives are races or not!). Timing riders alone doesn't make it a race. The sole objective of a race is to try and outperforming other riders. Sportives allow you to set your own objectives, and provide a few optional, personal targets within their structure. Outperforming other riders isn't one of them. I haven't seen an event openly promoting racing or offering prizes for probably four years now; I guess there may be some out there trying to do it on the QT, but I really don't think it's many.

And I think the number of riders who overtly treat them as races is far smaller than is often suggested too. Actually, I don't think it, I know it. I've stood on the finish line of enough events and seen the reaction of enough riders to have a good gauge of the cross section. There are some guys (and girls) who get way too competitive, some who get a bit stupid and cause problems, and some who are good enough to record damn fast times without doing anything daft. They're only a small part of the field, up at the sharp end though, and by no means do all (or even most) of them think they are in an actual race.

By far, most of the field are a sliding scale of average cycling enthusiasts down to novices, charity riders and family day trippers, who just want to enjoy a day on their bike or just get round the course. Quite a lot of them will show some level of interest in their ride time, but almost none of them will think that, on any serious level, they were racing.