[Closed] Hard tail or full suspension

creamegg - Member
rear mech set up... works every time for me

Cheers, that is good plain Enlish, will save that to favourites and give it a go next time i build a bike.

Thanks for all the awesome feed back. I'm probably more lost than ever now hahaha. The more I read the better bike I want. Couple more questions. Am I taking a massive back step if I was to get a really good second hand 26inch?? And the other is I'm starting to like the sound of building my own bike but where do I start. I'm here on holiday at the moment and move here in December so seeing the weather won't be the best it could be a good chance to build 1.

Finally mountain biking is an all year round sport, winter rides are great !

Thanks for all the awesome feed back. I'm probably more lost than ever now hahaha.

just about sums this kind of thread up 😀
😀

@Euro Funnily enough it was AE that really had me wishing for a full suss bike. Mabie was ok, although I did have a read pinch flat coming down descender bender.

The more I read the better bike I want. Couple more questions. Am I taking a massive back step if I was to get a really good second hand 26inch??

It's only natural to want a better bike, but I'd say your current budget is plenty for a first bike myself.

As for the wheel size debate... There's 2 schools of thought on it. Firstly there's those that will say don't buy into an increasingly defunct standard, the time will come at some point when buying any decent spares for 26" bikes will come to an end. The other school of thought is that in the meantime, because so many people are offloading their 26" bikes and kit, the 2nd hand market is saturated, and now Is the time to grab a bargain! If it's going to be your first bike, you're not going to realise the subtle differences for some time until you get more used to riding bikes to be fair. So a 2nd hand 26" bike would make a lot of sense, though if buying new I'd look at 650b or 29er unless you find a nice 26" bike in the sale.

@jambalaya you said you love your cotic bikes so I had a bit of a look. They looked smaller frames than normal is that correct?

Get a hardtail from a bricks and mortar shop. You'll get more for your money vs a FS, probab ly better geometry too, plus, if it's a good bike shop, they'll ensure the bike is set up right for you, you can have a 6k+ super machine, but if it's set up wrong, it's no good. Little things like having the brake levers at the right angle and reach adjusted correctly, correct saddle angle are far more important than having rear suspension.

I'll bring out the learning technique and learning argument. You're learning, you're working stuff out, on a hardtail, you make a small move, you sense what is happening, can act accordingly, a FS muddies the waters, for a while, you'll ride it like utter tosh and not realise it, wheres a hardtail will soon let you know. Then learning really basic, incredibly useful things like turning, hopping and pumping, a hardtail will help that out.

Remember too with a fs it's more complicated to set up and maintain, really, really easy to get wrong.

Then you want to service your fs too to keep everything working as it should, accounted for that cost? The better, more expensive and more complicated stuff gets, the more maintenance it requires to maintain these small performance gains, if you dont intent on maintaining things and setting them up properly, you wont have these gains, therefore makes it pointless having them in the first place.

@shaun - well I seem to be a medium (18) in most bikes 5'10 shortish legs though 😳 The best way is try a ride a few, when I got my first bike (a ht btw) I was torn between 17 and 19 and went for 17 having only sat on it in the shop (in London) but it was a mistake I think.

Cotic (like many manufactuers) are pretty helpful so if you email them your height etc they will make a suggestion, harder on older bikes but a second hand seller can tell you how tall they are. People can have personal references, some particularly liking shorter frames and you can adjust things a little with the type or bars, seat position even a "layback post". As you've seen from this thread it's a whole can of worms you've opened, that's one reason we can all spend some much time here debating stuff 8)

[tin hat on]
I am sure I'll get massively flamed (probably justifiably) but those Cotics are a whole lot cooler than a Boardman 29er
[tin hat off]

Apologies if this has been said already.

Be aware of the higher maintenance/servicing/mending costs of fsussers. You've double the expensive shock components, plus all the extra frame bearings.

I really wanna thank everyone it's been great reading every thing. I have cut out a fs bike so going to go a hard tail. As you guys said for the1200 I have to spend I can really get a nice second hand hard tail. Looks like I'll have to go for a 26inch but the overall bike will be worth it I think. Anyone else like the cotic bikes? Is steel frame better that aluminium?
Cheers

My local bike shop has a new Solaris build on display for £1500. Little bit over your budget but it did look a cracking bike.

My local bike shop has a new Solaris build on display for £1500. Little bit over your budget but it did look a cracking bike.

Sorry for the hijack. Where abouts is this shop and what fork / components on the Solaris if you don't mind me asking?

This (as posted by DezB)

http://paulscycles.co.uk/m1b0s1p4945/GIANT-ANTHEM-X-2-2013

The thing is, that Anthem won't be as good going downhills as a hardcore hardtail with better forks, better geo, wider bars and a shorter stem. And a similar spec gravity oriented bike will weigh about 33-35lbs.

I really wanna thank everyone it's been great reading every thing. I have cut out a fs bike so going to go a hard tail. As you guys said for the1200 I have to spend I can really get a nice second hand hard tail. Looks like I'll have to go for a 26inch but the overall bike will be worth it I think. Anyone else like the cotic bikes? Is steel frame better that aluminium?

Just get an On One 45650b, Mondraker, Zen X or a NP Scout brand new. Lighten them up later.

funkmasterp - Member

 My local bike shop has a new Solaris build on display for £1500. Little bit over your budget but it did look a cracking bike.Sorry for the hijack. Where abouts is this shop and what fork / components on the Solaris if you don't mind me asking?

Oh yeah. I should have put the shop name. I think it had X-Fusion Slide Forks and 1x10 shimano drive train. It was Duck Egg too.

http://www.bachebrotherscycles.co.uk/

Anyone else like the cotic bikes? Is steel frame better that aluminium?

On Steel vs Alu, the steel bikes have a bit more suppleness which makes them great to ride. The Alu bikes are often lighter but more rigid feeling.

On Steel vs Alu, the steel bikes have a bit more suppleness which makes them great to ride. The Alu bikes are often lighter but more rigid feeling.

This is mostly a placebo effect, 99 percent of the damping is done in the rear tyre. Most differences in ride quality come down to chainstay length, the shorter the chainstay is the more flickable the bike is but the further you are over the rear tyre. Meaning you get knocked around more than you would if you're placed more centrally in the bike by having longer chainstays.

You mean steel frames don't have magic pixie dust in them that makes them supple and springy? What, not even my 853 frame? 😕

Dammit! 🙂

(I have three steel mtb frames, including the 853 one mentioned above. IMO none of them are particularly inherently springy)

As my good friend would say I have drunk the kool-aid on steel 😉

It's certainly a lot better ride than my ALU Specialised ever was.

Well, if you will ride a Spesh... 😉

This is mostly a placebo effect, 99 percent of the damping is done in the rear tyre. Most differences in ride quality come down to chainstay length, the shorter the chainstay is the more flickable the bike is but the further you are over the rear tyre. Meaning you get knocked around more than you would if you're placed more centrally in the bike by having longer chainstays.

That's absolutely true about the chainstays. However there is a difference in the high frequency behaviour with a more compliant frame design (not necessarily steel) - I was sceptical of it when I bought a Cotic Soul (which I wanted for the geometry, strength and weight - I'd have considered an aluminium frame if there'd been any comparable ones at the time). But it's definitely less buzzy that my previous alu XC hardtail (with the same length chainstays), it feels if anything like the tyres are a few psi lower.

I really like hardtails and if I was on a relatively tight budget I'd get one rather than a full-sus - especially if riding gnarlier trails as you can then spend more of the budget on a good fork, some tough wheels, good tyres and a dropper post. All those matter more than having some mediocre rear suspension.

You can just get rid of high frequency buzz with carbon railed seats and carbon bars.

Steels not going to iron out chatter or anything like that as some people seem to think and I think it's really debatable still whether frame material alters felt buzz significantly. Like all these things, some people notice certain attributes more than others though.

I really like hardtails and if I was on a relatively tight budget I'd get one rather than a full-sus - especially if riding gnarlier trails as you can then spend more of the budget on a good fork, some tough wheels, good tyres and a dropper post. All those matter more than having some mediocre rear suspension.

+1, I sold my Mega a while back and have had to buy a hardtail frame recently due to budget constraints, I'm going to build it with parts that can be swapped to a 150mm full suss frame but I will most likely just end up with two bikes as hardtails are lots of fun. Everyone should own at least one hardtail as well as a full susser, if they can afford it.

You can just get rid of high frequency buzz with carbon railed seats and carbon bars.

Not through your feet you can't! And if you think small carbon bits make a difference why wouldn't a load of long bits of steel, that are being far more heavily loaded, do the same?

Not through your feet you can't! And if you think small carbon bits make a difference why wouldn't a load of long bits of steel, that are being far more heavily loaded, do the same?

I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you can't feel it and the effect is negligible in comparison to the job the tires do.

You can get carbon cranks as well.

I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you can't feel it and the effect is negligible in comparison to the job the tires do.

Carbon cranks are made to be stiff so they'd actually damp vibrations less than most aluminium cranks. It's very nice of you to tell me what I can and can't feel but you just come across as someone who's rather immature and not quite as clever as he thinks he is. Not a judgement based solely on these posts, I just suffer from remembering far too much of what I read on here. Sorry.

Carbon cranks are made to be stiff so they'd actually damp vibrations less than most aluminium cranks. It's very nice of you to tell me what I can and can't feel but you just come across as someone who's rather immature and not quite as clever as he thinks he is. Not a judgement based solely on these posts, I just suffer from remembering far too much of what I read on here. Sorry.

That's fair enough, I just can't feel the difference myself - I think these things are subjective and it seems Sheldon Brown would have agreed with me.

Carbons vibration damping doesn't come from flex or stiffness though, it comes from the density of the material I believe. So carbon cranks will dampen vibration, just not large impacts.

Again

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

If we are talking about largish bumps as opposed to vibration.

Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice.

Bumps are transmitted from the rear tire patch, through the tire, the wheel, the seatstays, the seatpost, the saddle frame, and the saddle top. All these parts deflect to a greater or lesser extent when you hit a bump, but not to an equal extent.

The greatest degree of flex is in the tire; probably the second greatest is the saddle itself. If you have a lot of seatpost sticking out of a small frame, there's noticeable flex in the seatpost. The shock-absorbing qualities of good-quality wheels are negligible...and now we get to the seat stays. The seat stays (the only part of this system that is actually part of the frame) are loaded in pure, in-line compression. In this direction, they are so stiff, even the lightest and thinnest ones, that they can contribute nothing worth mentioning to shock absorbency.

by now I would imagine OP has taken up golf

& as for frame materials, I have both a Canfield Yelli Screamy (alloy) and a Nimble 9 (4130 steel). They have the same geometry and nearly the same builds, there is a huge difference in the rides. The N9 is like having 15mm of rear sus compared to the Yelli.

The Nimble Nine has longer stays in one setting and a steep seat tube angle putting you further in front of the back wheel.

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😈

Apologies for being excessively narky in my previous post (mods, feel free to edit). A key part of my job requires a good understanding of resonant systems. For a component to damp vibrations requires it to move in some way, usually flexure in non-suspended bike bits. Anything that that flexes will have resonant frequencies and Q factor related to them: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

Carbon parts can use the resin and fibre matrix in such a way as to reduce Q. You can't really change Q with metals, they just are how they are but the stiffness to mass ratio will change the resonant frequency. With bike parts their very high stiffness and relatively low mass pushes the resonant frequencies up out of the bandwidth which can be excited by riding over the rough so they don't tend to continue resonating (ringing), which means the flex tends to self-damp relatively quickly (or does the energy tend to shift upwards in frequency?)

Apologies for being excessively narky in my previous post (mods, feel free to edit). A key part of my job requires a good understanding of resonant systems. For a component to damp vibrations requires it to move in some way, usually flexure in non-suspended bike bits. Anything that that flexes will have resonant frequencies and Q factor related to them: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

I'm not an engineer. I've just been told that stiff carbon can still dampen high frequency vibrations better than any metal due to the material itself not transmitting them as effectively, whilst of course a flexier frames is going to reduce the feel of large impacts.

I'm surprised an engineer hasn't weighed in yet.

hard tail for me

I'm not an engineer. I've just been told that stiff carbon can still dampen high frequency vibrations better than any metal due to the material itself not transmitting them as effectively, whilst of course a flexier frames is going to reduce the feel of large impacts.

It's complicated! But regardless, a truly rigid component cannot damp vibrations.

Do you know how this works then?

Or is it BS?

By adding mass (lowering the resonant frequency) and increasing self damping (thus reducing Q). With a loudspeaker adding cone mass and increasing resistive losses in the suspension would be equivalent. In a ported enclosure you could do the same to the port's own resonant system by increasing the port length (thus increasing the mass of air within) and adding a some layers of highly porous fibrous material over it (thus increasing the resistive port losses). Or with a suspension bridge you could hang a heavy weight off the middle of it and add huge dampers where it connects with solid ground. Etc etc.

So do carbon parts only damp vibrations better when they are flexier then?

One can achieve flexiness with aluminium frames as well, so I really can't see the argument for steel being a better vibration damper holding true.

http://mbaction.com/home-page/spank-offers-an-explanation-and-solution-to-handarm-numbness

Is this BS?

Genuinely interested here.