[Closed] Flat pedal technique. Once more, with feeling (and pics)

It doesn't affect flex, but it does affect travel

I'm still not sure why this should be the case? Why can you bend your ankle less with your foot an inch or two further back on the pedal? ❓

@ chiefgrooveguru

I like this quote from Lee

These days I focus on driving the net force—gravity, braking, impact, whatever—directly into the pedal spindle. (Remember, it’s all about heavy feet and light hands.) That’s working way better.

JonEdwards - Member

It's this kind of stuff, flat out I struggle with.

...(nice moody picture of a classic loose rocky peak district desent)...

i see your problem, you're riding one of the most boring trails in the world.

CGG - good links - especially the first one about foot position. That's exactly where I'm coming from.

ahwhiles what crap

if you are hanging off the back, you don't need front wheel grip.

I was informed by Rob Warner I was riding too far over the back once and to shift my weight forward and ride the front more.

Apparently, riding over the back is for mincers and is soooo 2001 :P. Aggressive and over the front Sam Hill style is where it's at.

Sam....on flats.

and at his all time best

All the back and forward weighting is very unbalanced. How about just going for the middle with weight through your pedals and keeping it there as you go up and down and round. Bend your arms and legs properly and get your face down into the action. Think yourself now gnarr'd

hang on was that kye forte on a 29er? the bmx world must be a shitload more accepting these days!

Mr Plow has it right.

The amount of times I've seen trail riders hanging over the back, hitting wet off camber roots and coming off beggars belief....as others have said....neutral body position is over the BB about 40 f 60 r

Move your weight around accordingly, some peoples styles are different though so just go with what works. Sam Hill rides flats, yet rides over the front more than a lot of other riders. Cedric Gracia appears to keep his arse over the back wheel a lot more.

If you push your hips back (and down a bit) and drop your shoulders down and forwards, your centre of gravity can remain in the same longitudinal position but it'll be lower, and because your hips are further behind your BB but closer to it vertically it'll be easier to drive all the forces (especially the critical impact ones) directly into the pedal spindles.

If I'd ridden that enduro yesterday with Sam Hill's body position but on my inferior bike and with my immeasurably vastly inferior skills I'd have pulled off a few corners quicker, had fewer moments of sketchy understeer, but also gone over the bars a few times!

Good point chief.

Another one I forgot to mention, having jumped on the slow rebound bandwagon that a lot of DHers are running.....I've started noticing how many trail riders run really really fast rebound to the point they are being bucked back and fourth on trails.

I wonder if this has something to do with some riders inability to get on with flats.

Bwarp - hence the word "if" 🙄

Warner was probably right

Slow rebound on the back of a hardtail? That's pure genius, even for here 😀

I wasn't talking about the OP. Just mentioned it as I'd seen a lot of it lately and I've seen a few thrown off their bikes because of it.

Smart arse. 👿

I prefer f39 + r61 myself...

So all the people saying "more weight on the pedals". How? Hang off the back of the bike? How do you then get front wheel grip?

Roughly speaking, if your hands are "weightless" on the bars, there is ~40% of your weight acting on the front wheel contact patch and 60% on the rear contact patch. I have been training myself to maintain this feeling of weightlessness on the hands and driving with my feet in most situations. source=Lopes/McCormack I think.

GW's remark about the long looking fork is interesting, and I'm half way to agreeing with him now [shock]. Looking at the photos, there seems to be too little sag. Sag-plus-rebound is needed to make the wheel track/grip properly. Why not increase sag and then whack-up the compression damping? You may find the improvement in grip and reduction in fork-dive really helps you stay on the pedals, and off the bars. Worth a try innit?

Good luck!

Possibly you are not putting enough weight on the foot which is wandering, i.e. you are riding with more weight on the "planted" foot, this may just be for brief period as you make an adjustment/ride a feature. I think the heel back angle thing is secondary. You might like to try swapping which foot you are leading with as an experiment.

So how do you pick anything approaching a line if the front wheel isn't weighted?

Turn from the hips, lean the bike, let the front wheel go where it naturally wants to go based on that lean and bodyweight shift. Only at low speed can you really pick a line with the front wheel, and at that speed grip shouldn't be an issue. But with all your weight in your feet then as long as you're not pulling up on the bars your front tyre has about 40% of your weight on it.

Im not reading all of this. But a quick look at the pictures tells me the position of your feet is bang out.

I tend to ride flats with my feet in the same position on the pedals as I would need them for doing any sort of stunt i.e. a hop/jump/manual etc. as this is where they feel comfiest and I feel safest/most confident. This seems to be somewhere in the middle of my foot.

You look like you have your feet in the same postion as you would when riding clips, i.e. on the ball of your foot.

Not got a lot else to add.

Hehe..I'm on that video!!

dt, maybe you should have read this link: http://www.leelikesbikes.com/foot-position-on-flat-pedals.html

Not doubting your skills but you're neither Macaskill nor Lopes... 😉

It's the mudguard.

Yes, you're possibly best off ignoring my advice. I should aswell. I dont think I actual ride on the arch of my foot at all, I just looked at an old picture of me on the bike and thats where my feet were (they must have moved on the pedals)

I then sat on a bike and riding on the arch of your foot feels bizarre, just behind the ball feels right. (it still looks like your feet are too far forward on the pedals though, apart from in the theird picture maybe?)

I converted back to flats a few years ago, but still clip in for road rides. I'm also very familiar with the descents you're on about (the Houndkirk-Dore drop used to be on my work-home commute 😀 )

As it happens, I've recently given some tuition to someone who was having a very similar problem with their flat pedals. It's difficult to tell whether you have exactly the same problem without seeing you ride, but the photos give some clues - that a lot of people have already picked up/commented on.

Some experimentation might be required, but you could try:

Feet slightly further forward on pedals i.e. pedal axle in, or more towards, arch of foot (when descending rough ground)

Try getting your hips further back and chest lower - and keep them limbs 'soft' 😉

Try dropping the heel on you trailing foot more - might need apply slightly more weight to trailing foot to get same amount of drop as lead foot.

Equipment wise, I'm not a fan of the Tevas for flattie equipped hardtail on rough ground. I use AM41's a lot, but if I know I'm going down a rough Peak descent on my HT, I'll go for my 'clumper' 5.10 impacts, as the grip is better (also use 5.10 Barons which are v.good).

HTH

Jon, your feet look about 1/2" further back on the pedal than mine but it does depend on how much toe room there is in your shoes. Your saddle looks quite high for riding descents hard - if you can get your body lower then you can drive your weight into the pedals more effectively. I was using AM40s before, Teva Links now, not noticed a shortage of grip with either on Vaults.

Jon, your feet look about 1/2" further back on the pedal than mine but it does depend on how much toe room there is in your shoes. Your saddle looks quite high for riding descents hard - if you can get your body lower then you can drive your weight into the pedals more effectively.

NB - this is bad: "It sort of works, other than it's really bloody tiring and it means [b]I'm really tense/stiff and unable to absorb bumps[/b]."

In other words, it doesn't work offroad, especially on a hardtail! 😉

P.S. I like your taste in bikes! V similar to my weapon of choice.

Try getting your hips further back and chest lower

I came across this the other day, good video...at least, I thought so. I'm not one to be handing out tips, mind.

[url=

Interesting thread so far.

Look at that - the server ate two of my posts and them spat them out an hour later. Weird...

Totally agree on the brakes - bring them up so you can drop your wrists/forearms, and move them in so your one finger has maximum leverage.

Gah.

Just typed a reply and it's been eaten.

Weight distribution. Just been for a play in the cellar. The position shown in the pics is pretty much neutral. I can happily let go of the bars completely -very little weight on my hands. This is on a flat floor, so a bit false though.

Brake lever positioning is absolutely fine. I don't know if the pics make them look too steep, but i'm not straining to reach them even hung right off the back of the bike. I've ridden some of the steepest nastiest techiest stuff in Les Arcs and the Peaks on that setup (and on flats), and it works fine.

Fork setup. If anything I think they're too soft at the mo. (I don't have my pack on, so add another 10 or 15lb on). I have never been entirely happy with those forks though - either they're divey or they're harsh and however I dick around with them I can't get them right, which is a shame as both my Rebas and Lyrics "Just Work (tm)". Currently, they're soft and divey...

Shoes. I used to have 5:10 Freeriders, but they didn't last too long, and having a cardboard midsole on an expensive outdoors shoe is just a joke, so I decided to try the Tevas instead. Memory tells me the 5:10s were grippier (could be rose tinted specs though). I do remember long descents where I literally had to unpeel my foot from the pedal. Reluctnat to blow another £70 on shoes.

The advice in this thread's already better than I can give I reckon, so I'll just stick to this- are you absolutely sure that you're observing these forms while riding? What you're doing should be perfectly adequate, seems to me, so it makes me wonder if you're maybe doing it right while leaning against a wall but then slipping while riding. Maybe, maybe not but it's a very simple explanation...

Seriously, move your brake levers. You're asking for advice, so take it!

Rotate them to about 20-30 degress from horizontal. You'll think it's all wrong but get out on the trails and it'll make sense.

Seriously, move your brake levers. You're asking for advice, so take it!

Rotate them to about 20-30 degress from horizontal. You'll think it's all wrong but get out on the trails and it'll make sense.

A more DH focussed instructor suggested the flatter lever position to me about 3 years ago, and at first I wasn't that keen as the levers felt a bit odd when stood up on flatter ground. I was a bit of an old skool 'elbows out/forearms in line with forks' rider, so the elbows down position that the flatter levers encourage also felt odd to begin with. However, I experimented with a lever half-way between the two positions, then have gradually ended up mving the levers progressively flatter - I guess they're now about 25-30 degrees off horizontal.

It really is worth a try - and at least it doesn't cost anything.

Good luck 🙂

A more DH focussed instructor suggested the flatter lever position to me about 3 years ago, and at first I wasn't that keen as the levers felt a bit odd when stood up on flatter ground

jedi said the exact same thing to me. It transformed my riding. The way he put it was to show me how my weight pushed the fork into the ground if my wrists were on top of the bars... when the levers were a bit flatter my wrist was behind the grips.. this meant it was pushing the bike forwards and not into the dirt. Key difference

(think it's explained in that vid i posted)

The flatter levers thing feels weird to start with but it helps so much. Not just to stop you getting that feeling of going over the bars but I think it reduces arm pump a lot, I never really get it any more.

yea.. I had no arm pump whatsoever in the alps last year

Regardless of whether you're riding on the flat or downhill, if you want to go as quickly as possible you need to brake late and brake hard. If you're braking hard you want your centre of gravity as low and rearward as possible at the point of maximum deceleration. Unless you have arms like Mr Tickle a flatter lever position will work better when your body is in this braking stance. And then there are all the other benefits...

surely if you are being bounced off the pedals your knees arnt soft enough? this comes from your spd riding. i get the same thing when i start riding flats again after a period of riding clips.

you need to relax more and worry less about your feet.

you're too upright. your upper body needs to be much lower.

high5 tom and trickydisco 🙂

So an update.

I went out on Sunday for a swim round Blacka for a couple of hours. Did a few runs down Devils Elbow to play with technique a bit.

The one change I made to my setup was to swap the Tevas for my old 5:10 Freeriders patched up with gaffer tape (lasted about 20 mins!).

Instantly, as soon as I put shoe to pedal, I felt much more secure. Best way to put it is that I felt my foot to be in the pedal rather than on it. Actually riding bore that out - even the first run before my brain was in gear I had no foot movement issues, and despite the river of a trail, I was pedaling at least as much as if I was on clips. Didn't have to think what I was doing with my feet at all.

I had a think/play with positioning. I do stand a lot lower than the original pics imply, but my fore-aft position is about the same. I tried moving further back, but whilst I (obviously) put more weight on my back foot, I found the extra abuse I was giving the back wheel (and so thr increased risk of pinchflats) not worth the extra grip (there's a limit to what you can absorb when you can't see a damn thing you're riding over because you're riding down a stream and blinking rain/spray out of your eyes once a second (despite the crud catcher and the neoguard).

This means very little, but from the select sample of 4 other riders I saw out, I was going, way, WAY faster than any of them. One was tripoding his way down, 2 fell off at walking pace and the 4th was picking nice lines and riding smoothly but was going at maybe 7mph. (sticks enormous, stealth rubber coated, todger back into shorts).

To conclude, I reckon the problem is maybe 80% shoes, 20% technique. Yes my skills could always be better, and I'm sure better flats riders than me would get on with the Tevas quite happily, but a swap of footwear seems to solve/mask the issue pretty satisfactorily.

Jon
if you look closely at the kyle Vid his front foot has heel drop but not so much the back one, so that is "Normal" even for the best of riders.
other than that would agree re brake levers, and seat drop, not to get the weight back so much as to get weight lower.

3 pages for you to change shoes ?

😛

I don't think you should care about pinch flats in your riding position.