[Closed] Evil Insurgent

Damping? Damning. Bloody phone.

Seems like they put a lot of effort into getting a bike that looks and rides well but overlook the engineering.
I do [i]really[/i] like that insurgent, but with the issues around the following (that I wasn't aware of) my money will have to go elsewhere.

Wow, I dodged a bullet not buying an Uprising, these stories are unforgivable. If I was left without a warranty I'd be after legal advice for sure.

Stevelol - Member
Wow, I dodged a bullet not buying an Uprising, these stories are unforgivable. If I was left without a warranty I'd be after legal advice for sure.

The reason I haven't taken it to court is because by European law I would have to take the Shop/Distributor to court and these boys have been nothing short of legends trying to sort it out. It's Evil that are the problem. So as a decent person there is no way I could go after the shop when they are effectively backing me to the hilt.

Hope this makes sense,

All the best,

Lee.

And my friend has the new following and his back end comes loose half way through every ride. Evil have admitted there is a tolerance issue on some frames and have told him to DIY fix it himself by adding spacers to the linkage everytime it comes loose..... He literally has about 10 in there now!

generallevi

The most damming report of crap customer service behind a crap product I've ever heard.

And.... I'm out.

I don't quite understand where these spacers are going, but it sounds absolutely appalling!

The spacers are going between the mainframe and the Swingarm as the gap is too big on some frames. In fact, allow me to let Kevin Walsh from Evil expand. Here is an extract of what he sent my mate for the DIY fix:

'I apologize for the inconvenience but that's a difficult area to maintain tolerance during production and we are doing our best to control it at the factory level to prevent this from happening in the future.

'We'll send you tomorrow a set of spacers that we just received from the factory. You'll probably only be able to for one of these spacers as two of them is too much. Fitting these spacers will solve the problem. That part of the frame is specially tricky to get perfect tolerance, specially on the first frames we have done'.

And there you have it....

However it hasn't solved the problem as he has to keep adding more, the slacker it becomes! 😉

All the best,

Lee.

Surly at some point that will lead to catastrophic failure?
From what he's written the gap shouldn't be changing. Just that it was off-spec at the factory.
I would advise clarification and give Evil an update of how many spacers are currently being used.

'I apologize for the inconvenience but that's a difficult area to maintain tolerance during production and we are doing our best to control it at the factory level to prevent this from happening in the future.

'We'll send you tomorrow a set of spacers that we just received from the factory. You'll probably only be able to for one of these spacers as two of them is too much. Fitting these spacers will solve the problem. That part of the frame is specially tricky to get perfect tolerance, specially on the first frames we have done'.

And there you have it....

However it hasn't solved the problem as he has to keep adding more, the slacker it becomes!

In short Evil doesn't do quality control and have no interest in ensuring the factory kicking the frames out of the door follows any of the drawings or tolerances. My money won't be spent with them, no matter how well the frames ride.

I do really like that insurgent, but with the issues around the following (that I wasn't aware of) my money will have to go elsewhere.

Issues? Yes I've seen one report before (the same?) about the following and it's rubbish for the owner, but there 4 or 5 Evil Following owners on here, the MTBR forum is very very busy... and this is NOT a issue for the majority of owners. That's not to say I don't sympathise & would be more than pissed if mine was similar, Generallevi's position is also beyond compare and I would be perusing it in court (if the LBS have done all they can, how can they get blamed by the court), he should have been given a new frame if they can't provide the required part. All that said, I love mine, don't have lots of cash, so was a big risk.. and so far it's more than paid off (hope I don't get to eat those words), as I have what I consider to be the best (mid travel) FS 29er currently available

Surly at some point that will lead to catastrophic failure?
From what he's written the gap shouldn't be changing. Just that it was off-spec at the factory.
I would advise clarification and give Evil an update of how many spacers are currently being used.
POSTED 2 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Alex,

You honestly think Evil don't know he has had to add more than 2 spacers? That was their fix when it kept coming loose not his!

He would like a new frame considering it's only 5 months old and a problem since new but this is what he is being advised.

If you think Evil care about stuff like this you are mistaken. They told me to ride my bike with a bolt not specced for a frame, held in by one thread of carbon and glue..... 😉

Have had my Following a couple of months now. It's a rocketship. No problems so far with mine and no systemic issues reported on the US forums, where they've been on the dirt since autumn 2014.

It was something of a punt, due to Evil's past history, and still is. I accept that.

Some folks aren't up for that. That's personal choice, in which case I suggest moving on to something else instead of further negativity here.

Issues? Yes I've seen one report before (the same?) about the following and it's rubbish for the owner, but there 4 or 5 Evil Following owners on here, the MTBR forum is very very busy... and this is NOT a issue for the majority of owners. That's not to say I don't sympathise & would be more than pissed if mine was similar, Generallevi's position is also beyond compare and I would be perusing it in court (if the LBS have done all they can, how can they get blamed by the court), he should have been given a new frame if they can't provide the required part. All that said, I love mine, don't have lots of cash, so was a big risk.. and so far it's more than paid off (hope I don't get to eat those words), as I have what I consider to be the best (mid travel) FS 29er currently available

Hey Zippy!

That other report on the Following is not my mates. It's another guy with the same problem but he kicked off that hard that he did mange to get a new frame after rejecting it. He lived close to Evil HQ and was able to force the issue well. Pleased for the guy as a lot of coin invested.

I'm also pleased for you mate, Doug and anyone else who is having a great time on the new following. The bike is insanely good and will make a lot of other brands re think what they are doing.....

My beef is not with the performance of the bikes, that's why I worked so hard to get it fixed as I loved the Uprising. It's with the highwayman attitude of Evil when things go wrong.

in which case I suggest moving on to something else instead of further negativity here.

Have had my Following a couple of months now. It's a rocketship. No problems so far with mine and no systemic issues reported on the US forums, where they've been on the dirt since autumn 2014.
It was something of a punt, due to Evil's past history, and still is. I accept that.
Some folks aren't up for that. That's personal choice, in which case I suggest moving on to something else instead of further negativity here.

Matt,

Have a bit of emotional intelligence. Just because your doing ok doesn't mean other people can't voice their opinions just because you class them as negative.....

I have lost literally thousands of pounds, as have many others who have frames that are now expensive ornaments as spare parts are not being manufactured for bikes that still have long warranties. If you think I would not make that information available to potential buyers then you have another thing coming.

I have mentioned the positives as well as negatives and I am calling it as it is.

I wasn't aiming at you or anyone in particular Lee.

I think there's plenty of evidence now that the new generation of Evil frames are solid and sound. The Following thread on MTBR is 150 pages. Very very few -ves on that.

All of this stuff about Evil's history has been trotted out ad finitum since the first Following shots appeared at the start of this year. It's not news any more.

Your mate's spacer issue is not on, he should be getting a new frame.

The reason to buy from a shop, in large part, is to have a UK point of contact with responsibility in law to the buyer. That means to my mind if it's impossible to sort out a problem, they should be offering an alternative or reasonable refund. To be honest, if they were really looking after you, this is what they should do. Anyway I think escalating the issue with your favourite shop does not make you an indecent person, it helps them push the issue up the chain and do their job.

I think there's plenty of evidence now that the new generation of Evil frames are solid and sound. The Following thread on MTBR is 150 pages. Very very few -ves on that.

I do agree that there should be some recourse with the shop though, they'd have taken a decent profit from the frame sale so they're not passengers. Same for the distributor, in fact I'd not be at all surprised if between them they didn't make more out of it than evil did!

I say NO to all this negativity.

Lee I don't know the law in Netherlands but in the UK the shop's job is to look after the customer if the customer's complaint is reasonable. What happens between the shop and up the chain is their problem. If the shop can't sort out your problem within a reasonable you are within your rights to ask for a refund (with some kind of reasonable deduction for use) or an alternative product. 'Reasonable' is an important word here.

Mattjg,

After reading my shops email above (one of many fighting my corner) against a company (Evil) who have left both me and the shop high and dry do you honestly think I would take on the shop?

We are obviously at different ends of the moral compass......

Nah I doubt it.

tenacious_doug - Member

if that was any other manufacturer it would be a non-issue,

IF it was any other manufacturer, and they were deaking with it properly, it woul dbe a non issue.

For a company who before the Uprising had a scandalous record of frame breakages to be encountering more problems, and still not backing up their warranty rings a bigger alarm bell. "Sorry, we're not making any more" isn't OK. "Keep sticking spacers in" isn't ok

generallevi - Member
Mattjg,

After reading my shops email above (one of many fighting my corner) against a company (Evil) who have left both me and the shop high and dry do you honestly think I would take on the shop?

We are obviously at different ends of the moral compass.

Morally, I see your point, and you're being thoroughly decent about it.

But legally - your contract is with the shop, and the shop (through no fault of their own) have sold you a faulty product. It's their responsibility to refund you. And Evil's responsibility to reimburse the shop. And you shouldn't lose thousands on the pone bike you bought (at full price), versus the shop losing out on one of the dozens/hundreds they buy (at cost price). I think it's a lot fairer that you get your refund or replacement and the shop bear the cost. That's the warranty that they sold you, and made a profit on.

I do agree that there should be some recourse with the shop though, they'd have taken a decent profit from the frame sale so they're not passengers. Same for the distributor, in fact I'd not be at all surprised if between them they didn't make more out of it than evil did!

You'd be surprised at the margins involved... This is not Trek or Specialized, but a VERY niche product. You wouldn't get rich selling Evil's on their own, put it that way.

Lee I don't know the law in Netherlands but in the UK the shop's job is to look after the customer if the customer's complaint is reasonable. What happens between the shop and up the chain is their problem. If the shop can't sort out your problem within a reasonable you are within your rights to ask for a refund (with some kind of reasonable deduction for use) or an alternative product. 'Reasonable' is an important word here.

Reasonable is a VERY important word here! Problem is, it's always open to interpretation. When someone is making more money than they know what to do with, they're likely to be very "reasonable" when it comes to honouring a warranty, yet if they're on the brink of going bust... Well... You get my picture.

There's at least 4 of us on here that put our money where our mouth is with the Following, and so far so good pretty much by the sounds of it. The ride is (much to the annoyance of many) ridiculously good, many of the US forumites keep using the phrase "game changing" which may be a little strong, but I'm certainly quicker everywhere on my Following than I have been on any bike previously. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it certainly is mine!

Buying and running a bike from a company as small as Evil is always going to be a bit of a gamble, it's kinda like owning a Ferrari or a Lamborghini in that it's probably not going to be your only bike/car if you're lucky enough to own one. If you want everyday reliability and the backup of a huge company, buy Trek or a Specialized basically... Evil's past can't be ignored, that's for certain, but should you continue to judge everyone by their past discrepancies for eternity? Only you can decide your position here, and I don't think it's fair to take a dig at others for a difference of opinion on the matter. After all, if we all rode the same bikes, wouldn't life be boring!

Looks good, hope they make it right tbh...

I remember chatting to a guy at the endurance downhill, who had the old alu one, still in warranty. He was desperate for it to break so that he'd get an Undead as warranty replacement. Saw him about an hour later, happy as larry, pushing his snapped bike down the hill 😆 Funny old game.

But legally - your contract is with the shop, and the shop (through no fault of their own) have sold you a faulty product. It's their responsibility to refund you.

I'm not sure we have the correct understanding of bike warranties. I know I didn't before I read this;

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2011/08/bicycle-warranty-basics/

A warranty is a contract between you, the original purchaser, and the bike company. It’s not between you and the dealer (or retailer) where you bought the bike. The dealer is actually caught in the middle. The retailer goes back with the claim to the importer, and the importer goes back to the bike company to validate the claim to see if they can replace the item.

It is an aussie site, but bike warranties are global so I'd be surprised if it's any different here.

Reasonable is a VERY important word here! Problem is, it's always open to interpretation. When someone is making more money than they know what to do with, they're likely to be very "reasonable" when it comes to honouring a warranty, yet if they're on the brink of going bust... Well... You get my picture.

Wrecker that link is Australian so wouldn't apply in the UK

If you purchase an item from a shop, your contract is with the shop and not with the manufacturer and therefore the correct protocol is to communicate via the shop.

When you buy a car and it goes wrong, you take it back to the garage don't you? You don't take it back to Ford in America or BMW in Germany do you?

I don't think manufacturer warranty is anything to do with customer's relationship with the dealer.

Product bought from a dealer should be fit for purpose. If it's not, customer can take it back and ask them to remedy it. If they think the request is not reasonable (for instance product is very old, the issue is fair wear and tear, has been mishandled, or whatever - maybe they're just being bloody minded) they're entitled to decline, and the ball is back in the customer's court to take further action.

Sometimes customers are unreasonable, sometimes dealers are, hopefully most cases can be sorted with a conversation.

The small claims process is no big deal I believe, and I suspect adjudicators will tend to find on the side of the customer if they are being reasonable. Business is business, disagreements happen, it's not personal.

"The manufacturer won't respond to us" is not a satisfactory response, beyond a certain reasonable timeframe, in this case the dealer should discuss an alternative resolution with the customer - obvious options being a whole or partial refund, or an alternative product.

(here endeth the lesson!)

Remember, if you paid any part of it by credit card, there is always the section 75 claim you could make with your card provider.

If you purchase an item from a shop, your contract is with the shop and not with the manufacturer and therefore the correct protocol is to communicate via the shop.

I had to look up SOL.

I've been writing long officious posts today. Must've have a bad night. Sorry, should know better.

Not really mate. I doubt you do yourself, tbh, as it's hard to believe anyone would voluntarily express such a weak-minded argument.
The clue is in the word 'honour', and it's got nothing to do with how much money you're making.

I was being "practical" I think they call it... You can be as close to the letter of the law as you like, but when humans are involved, and people can't generally afford to take things to court over relatively small claims, then well...

For instance, my Dad has a TD5 Discovery. Got diagnosed with a warped head and needed a new head, head gasket and a top end rebuild etc. Car was also in need of a new clutch, so he decided to get a company to quote for a low milage replacement engine and fit a new clutch/flywheel at the same time... Which they did... 500 miles later the new engine has gone pop (warped head funnily enough!). Pretty simple you'd think, contact the people who put the replacement engine in and get them to put a new one in under the 12 month limited milage warranty that they gave when fitting it... Well if you can manage that, you're a better man than he or I! Said company has supposedly gone to the wall (yet they're still trading), and their "warranty" isn't worth the paper it's written on... Even worse (and this is where I gave him a telling off) is that he paid cash, not on Credit Card (Doh!) so he can't even go the section 75 route...

Anyway...

My point about "reasonable" always being open to interpretation still stands... If my Dad threatened to take said company to court, the judge would probably say that "given they are about to go bankrupt anyway, they've reasonably done all they can (ie. nothing) to fix the problem" and would throw it out, and my Dad would be down the court fees as well as a £3k engine that lasted 500 miles, and a TD5 discovery that he bought for £6k 2 years ago that is now worth scrap value basically!

If you're in no position to "honour" a warranty, it won't matter a damn in the courts eyes what you do as you can't "reasonably" do anything about it!

Anyway... Someone posted some pics of a nice new bike 2 and a bit pages ago...

Can't wait to have a go on one myself! If it's remotely as good as my Following has been, it'll sell very well indeed, and piss off a lot of Evil haters and Bronson owners alike!

Small claims costs are fixed and not high: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

To the best of my knowledge, neither side can claim costs beyond that, just the disputed amount, so nobody looses their house.

Of course getting a judgement and enforcing it are different issues ...

Anyway... Someone posted some pics of a nice new bike 2 and a bit pages ago...

Can't wait to have a go on one myself! If it's remotely as good as my Following has been, it'll sell very well indeed, and piss off a lot of Evil haters and Bronson owners alike!

That's more like it, back on track! Down with negativity and that sort of thing.

I'm not sure we have the correct understanding of bike warranties. I know I didn't before I read this;
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2011/08/bicycle-warranty-basics/

The situation that Wrecker mentions above is the situation that I am in since the bike was bought in mainland Europe. Here is an extract of what I was sent from my shop:

'We are only a reseller, Luismi is the importer for Evil Europe and therefor legally responsible for this'.

That's it from me guys. You pay your money you take your chances. The Evil Uprising is the best bike I have ever ridden, however Evil as a company have abandoned myself and others.

If you buy an Evil and it holds up you will have a belter. If it breaks, best of luck.

Signing off,

All the best,

Lee.

Can't wait to have a go on one myself! If it's remotely as good as my Following has been, it'll sell very well indeed, and piss off a lot of Evil haters and Bronson owners alike!

The facts remain that there is very recent evidence of poor support from evil. Your experience of the brand at present is very positive as your (very, very nice BTW) bike hasn't had an issue yet. I wonder what your attitude to the brand would be if you get the poor treatment that Lee and his friend have got?

Sitting on the fence still to be quite honest. If I'd personally received the kind of support that there is evidence some customers have, then you're right, my opinion would be very different...

But then there isn't a company in the world that someone hasn't had a bad experience of! If we all acted on other people's negative opinions all of the time, none of us would ever leave our house, much less ride a bike!

Life is a series of calculated risks (and I've taken some, trust me, including becoming an Evil Re-Seller!), but we're all free to make our own decisions.

You probably don't need to look too far to see evidence of a product in many people's day to day lives, from a company that not even two decades ago was on the verge of bankruptcy with thousands of irate customers who'd spent loads of money on their products of which many failed and there was little or no backup for... These days, Apple is the worlds most profitable company, and a significant proportion of the general population own something made by Apple!

Companies can turn around... Fingers crossed but Evil seems to be making some of the right noises at the moment at least...

A bit uncalled for though, it seems it's unanimous that this bike looks fantastic and most will likely ride absolutely brilliantly as I'm sure the following does. I want one. I make no bones about it. I'm just upset that this thing has been made by a company with such crap support. I am currently experiencing poor warranty support (from santa cruz of all brands....) and I don't want to go through being without a bike for >2 months again, let alone for ever!

Sorry, my personal experience of Santa Cruz owners recently has probably tainted my view on the brand somewhat, but round where I ride a lot it's definitely the "sheep" brand of the moment, and they're all too quick to diss my Evil when they see it! My apologies, wasn't meant as a personal dig.

Oh, and the looks are very subjective. I quite like it, plenty of people don't. It's definitely a form follows function kind of design rather than the other way round...

Sorry to hear about your issues with your bike, hope you get it sorted ASAP.

Cheers buddy. Glad your enjoying your bike.
Santa Cruz can be seen a bit "audi"in some areas, not here in good old brizzle, I can assure you!

they're all too quick to diss my Evil when they see it

mboy - Member
Anyway... Someone posted some pics of a nice new bike 2 and a bit pages ago...

Can't wait to have a go on one myself! If it's remotely as good as my Following has been, it'll sell very well indeed, and piss off a lot of Evil haters and Bronson owners alike!

You seem to have the impression that people dislike Evil bikes - I don't think that's remotely the case. But they've got history of making sub standard bikes, and leaving customers high and dry - which judging form the experience of some on here, they haven't learned from.

Personally, I'd love the Insurgent s my next bike, and I'd have a Following in the shed if I had the cash for two - but I couldn't trust either. Your suggestion that it's a niche product, so customers can't expect it to be reliable or have the warranty honoured is bollocks. Those are minimums that you expect, not extras.

Bad do's mate, you don't slag peoples bikes full stop.

Can we make that the forum motto 🙂

@Generallevi, Carbon can be threaded straight into. If all that's wrong with your frame is the threads, it could also potentially be repaired.
You'd have to find a keensert for the thread you need and drill and tap the frame for the keensert.

You seem to have the impression that people dislike Evil bikes - I don't think that's remotely the case.

I sell them... Trust me, they're Marmite!

Though I suspect as much of that is cos the Following is a 29er, and general opinion on 29ers is still that they're the Devil's work...